JetJock

I decided to start a program of oil analysis with my new TL. I used Blackstone Laboratories and went with the option of a personal analysis from Dawson. The price of the labwork is $20, and an additional $15 for a personal analysis from Mr. Dawson. The service these people provide is something I've never experienced before. I got the report promptly, and several letters from Mr.Dawson explaining the results in great detail. Any questions I had were answered promptly. These people are great, and I highly recommend their service. Having oil analysis done is the best way to monitor the health of your engine, and find problems before they develop into something serious. Aircraft engines have had their oil monitored for years, and is standard operating procedure for all turbine engines today.

Brewmaster

Did you have your break-in oil analyzed? If so, how many miles, was there anything interesting about initial break-in?

mlionel

I’ve done my first oil analysis just a couple of weeks go. My 2000TL had about 67K when I started using synthetic Mobil-1 with larger Mobil-1 filter. 7.5K later, after 50/50 mixed city/highway driving in Chicago area I’ve changed the oil and sent sample to Blackstone Lab’s. Their respond is terrific! Two day later I had my results in email and later a hard copy in mail.
By the way, after 7500 miles, per Blackstone Lab, I could drive for another 8500 miles.

fast-tl

What's the value of the service to a car still under warranty? If you follow the mfr's service guidelines, isn't this wasted money? I could easily see the value on an aircraft (serious $$$ invested, plus the safety aspect of being airborne) but on a road-going car, it doesn't seem necessary. Racing cars would certainly benefit, but what things would the oil analysis have you change on your personal ride, for instance?

vp911

I would like to know also...

I actually have never heard of this before. Suppose I wanted to do this, when I go to my dealer for an oil change - just tell them I want the oil back!? im confused

insmanblue

So what are the results?

JetJock

Obviously the engine is under warranty, but having the oil analysis done is cheap, and worth the peace of mind knowing your engine is wearing normally or not. The results of my initial sample of the factory break-in oil showed high levels of aluminum, iron, and copper. The analysis mentioned the aluminum might have been from hard running during the break-in of the engine, but wasn't excessive for a new engine. The iron and copper were also high, but considered normal for the first sample. There was almost no detectable moly remaining in the oil, which they noted saying that the additives were totally used up. The MID showed 20% life remaining, but Moly levels did not agree with the MID. Road Rage has mentioned in other threads about adding additional Moly to the oil, and my analysis backed up his remarks. $20 is cheap insurance. The procedure to sample the oil simply involves taking a small container, which they provide, and filling it with oil as it's being drained from the engine during a routine oil change. The container is sent to the lab, and you get the results in a few days.

vp911

Where do I get ahold of this company you used?

JetJock

Blackstone Laboratory's
4929 S. Lafayette St.
Ft. Wayne, Indiana 46806
260 744-2380

vp911

Thanks

Repecat

Hey, JetJock. At what mileage did you get the analysis done? Was that mileage the VIN recommendation gave, or your intuitive change point? Thanks for your post.

JetJock

Well, I had a gut feeling to change my oil at 4500miles when the MID just switched from 30% to 20%. It was a good thing I did, because the lab result mentioned that the magnesium level wasn't right, and indicated the oil additives were used up completely even though the MID said I had life remaining in the oil.
I think I'm confusing moly with magnesium, but that's the benefit of having Mr.Dawson doing the plain language interpretation of the lab results because the raw data doesn't mean much unless it's explained in laymans terms.

MR1

Thanks for the info, yes, think I'll be doing this. Points to you!

BTW - blackstone-labs.com

soljc

Huh?

Under this bright thinking, I shouldn't pay the $20 co-pay for my annual checkup because I've got health insurance and if anything goes wrong, I'm covered.

johnstl

If you make sure the oil is changed approx every 5,000 mile, you dont need to waste your money on oil analysis....especially on a NEW car.

JetJock

True, it's not necessary, but it's nice to know what's going on inside the engine and how the engine is wearing-in, if the wear levels are abnormal, and the oil is doing it's job. $20 is not going to break the bank, and I feel the information provided is worth the money.

PhilB

This is rather disconcerting. I wonder if others have had similar results. My engine is at 640 miles right now but when I get to the 20% oil life point I'll try to remember to do the same thing. It'll be interesting to see how much moly is left at that time.

-phil

JackSprat01

Wow, that does it. I was completely going to stick with the "change the oil the first time when the MID says so" but now??? Screw that, I'm changing it at 50% and throwing in a can of Maxlife like RR did. Wonder if I should go straight to Mobil 1 or use dino oil the first time? Maybe some of that Halvoline half n half.

johnstl

I just changed my oil and used Mobil 1 and also rotated the tires. This was the 1st oil change for me when the MID advised. I was surprised that the oil filter is so easy to get to with the passenger tire off. It makes sense to rotate the tire and change oil at the same time!

JetJock

Guys, that's exactly why oil analysis is a good thing. Some people say it's a waste of money, but heck...$30 is what people spend at Starbucks for a month of caffeine...so why not spend a few bucks and know exactly how the engine and oil are holding up. The analysis proved that the MID in my car wasn't accurate and changing the oil at <20% was the thing to do. Next time around, I'll change it at 30%, get the analysis done and see how things held up this time around and adjust my oil change schedule based on the oil analysis and not what the MID is telling me. BTW, JackSprat, I switched my oil to synthetic at the first oil change, and notified the people at Blackstone Laboratories so they've got a heads up on the oil when it comes back for analysis the next time around. They will base the analysis on the new oil...there is a place on the form you fill out to specify exactly what type oil you're using, how much oil you added between changes, and the miles you've driven between changes...good stuff!!

Road Rage

Oil analysis and cutting open filters are SOP for me. The chemical analysis shows me how various oils interact with my engine - and no, they are not all the same. I have seen elevated copper readings with some of the most "famous" oils, and the best results with an oil from a relatively unknown company.

Engines vary on their ability to "beat up" on the oil. Subarus, for example, are invariably great - the result of precision machining, the boxer configuration, and the short crankshafts, in my opinion.

If you know what to look for, you can find an "oil for life". I recommend that, or at least sticking with a quality product.

Look at what is posted in the UOA's of bobistheoilguy.com. You will see that some of the highly touted purple oils are pretty lousy, and that some of the least expensive oils are terrific. The ability to watch for patterns in cars like your own at various mileages and drain intervals is quite revealing, for those willing to do a little work.

Oil analysis is not about warranties or leases - it is about longevity and reducing maintenance costs. Or, determining a small problem and fixing it before it becomes fatal (like a colon polyp). Is a colonoscopy a waste of money? Depends on what your objectives are.

I commend JJ for his diligence.

terryt5231

Bout to revive a 5 year old thread, if possible! I just ordered my Blackstone lab kit. Will get my Mobil 1 synthetic tested at 5,000 mile oil change.

My question is, what sort of problems might show up on an oil analysis that I can correct or fix before they become major problems?

YeuEmMaiMai

I have 94K on my 02 cl-s with regular oil changes I will do an oil analysis with the next oil change for both engine (not needed imho) and the trans (needed imho). Engine is perfect and burns no oil. I change my oil every 6K. The way you drive your car will have more impact than using any name brand oil with the proper service routine.

Roger555

iTrader: (3)

Ill be sending mine in soon to blackstone I have about 7,000 on my Amsoil fill

NAiL05

A lot of Diesel truck people use blackstone. It can predict oncoming problems if not issues that are already happening. Its pretty cool and in depth.

terryt5231

I'd love to hear the results. Keep us in the loop?

terryt5231

I'd love to hear the results. Keep us in the loop?

DeathMetal

iTrader: (2)

Please post your results and the filter you are using...AMSOIL user myself.

I hate cars

Guys, UOAs are a very misunderstood subject and a sore spot for me. Many so called "experts" are dead wrong when it comes to using UOAs for determining engine wear.

What a $30 UOA is good for:

- Showing a coolant leak into the oil.

- Showing oil life remaining via TBN, TAN, and to a lesser degree, viscosity.

- Showing additives remaining.

- Showing air filtration effectiveness and/or leaks in the air intake system via insoluables.

- Trending wear metals.... sort of.

What a $30 UOA is not good for:

- It will not show engine wear period.

A UOA should not be used to compare oils based on wear metals. This is a complete mis-use of a UOA and you're screwing yourself in choosing one oil over another based on UOA wear metals.

A UOA (spectrographic analysis ) can only pick up small particles in a narrow range. This range of particles are of the "normal wear" type. They will usually be within the acceptable range even while you have "severe wear", "fatigue wear", and "cutting wear" going on at the same time which will not show up.

The only true way to test for actual wear is through a particle count (ferrography test) which actually counts all wear particles, not just a narrow range. I've seen oil that did very well in a UOA show give a terrible particle count.

One big offender was Amsoil 0w-30. It usually gives back great UOAs but.... put it under the microscope and look at the types of wear particles and it's not so good.

Redline oil will show terrible UOAs for the first 3 drains or so. Redline is known for removing oxidation from metal surfaces. This oxidation is in the range that the UOA can pick up so all of a sudden you have 50ppm of iron and you think the oil is junk. Oil should NEVER be compared using wear metals. I've torn down engines that showed poor UOAs on Redline only to find that they looked brand new inside.

It's been hinted at that it's *possible* that good wear metals via UOAs can actually mean MORE wear. I'm on the fence on this one. But it's definately possible.

Additives can skew UOA wear metal results. People, myself included, were too quick to bash Mobil One because it showed high iron in just about every UOA in many different cars. It was later found that one of the additives were showing up as iron. Unfortunately Mobil One got bashed pretty hard based on the UOA results.

At best you can use UOAs to trend your car over it's lifetime. You will have an idea of what the engine normally produces. If it goes higher, check into it. Only problem is if wear metals go lower it could be because it's producing more of the larger "severe" wear particles that the UOA can't see. See how using it to compare oils is such a bad idea?

My own story... read only if you're bored.

I started doing UOAs on my GN in the early days to hopefully catch any wear quick enough to save hard parts. This happened twice but one really stands out. I had a new engine, broke it in and then started the UOAs at 1,000 mile intervals. UOAs were coming back great. Over a couple months I noticed more blowby out of the breathers than normal. Another month later oil pressure was falling. Oil started coming out sparkly. This is a sure sign it's failing yet UOAs were ok. Only toward the end did the lead become slightly elevated but it was still in the accpetable range. I pulled the engine once it lost oil pressure and compression.

What I found were rings that were so worn you could see the wear from 5 feet away. Cylinders had a wear ridge so bad I had to break the rings to get the pistons out. Rod and main bearings were gone. A couple of the rod bearings were worn through the lead and copper and nearly to the shell. The valvetrain surprisingly was the only thing in decent shape.

Through it all UOAs came back ok. I could see the metal in the oil with my eyes but the UOA did not pick it up. This was when I learned that my car was producing large wear particles that were not being picked up by the 5 UOAs that I ran.

Here's a little reading on UOA vs Particle Count. It goes back and forth pretty well. I can dig up more reading if anyone wants it.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=18757

I hate cars

I just wanted to quote this old post for discussion purposes. Notice how he points out that many of the well known "good" oils will produce more "wear" via UOA wear metals than cheap less known oils. This is very true but I think the answer lies in my post above. The good oil is not actually producing more wear and the cheap oil is not producing less wear. The good oils are just producing a smaller wear particle that can be picked up by the UOA.

Roger555

iTrader: (3)

and smaller wear particles would cause less wear on your engine just like a 2000 grit sand paper is less aggressive then 100 grit

I hate cars

Exactly! You would be surprised at how many people on bitog can't comprehend that one simple point.

When I get to a computer I'll present more of the other side so you guys can make up your own minds. I don't want to sound too biased.

bshevchuk

I just ordered my kit. I just bought an 04 6MT TL and it looks like it was taken care of very well (dirty inside and out, both air filters dirty). I took out seats carpets and headliner and washed it. Looks so clean now. I still have to machine buff exterior. With this kit I want to see what kind of shape engine is in. I dont know what kind of oil he put in, but I want it checked out before I put in brand new Mobil1 5W-20. Does the company need to know what kindof oil it is to properly analyze?

bshevchuk

Oh yeah, and my car has 75K. Its not too high mileage, but its not low either.

I hate cars

You will get the form in the mail and you'll see the info they need but yes, the type of oil is on there.

The only info you're going to get out of this other than what kind of shape your oil in is if you have a coolant leak into the oil. Otherwise it's not going to tell you much about the engine.

75,000 is still practically new for these engines. I wouldn't bother with more than the initial UOA for this one.

bshevchuk

Yeah I was thinking of just doing an initial one. But they ask for what kind of oil it is...I dont know what oil the previous owner put in. Can I leave it blank?

I hate cars

Definately. They may even be able to give an educated guess as to whats in it based on the additives. They will be able to tell you if its a 20 or 30wt but not the "w" number like 0,5,or 10w-30.

If this one turns out good I would wait for another few changes before doing it again. If the car has any issues like an overheat its not a bad idea to do one just to catch the early signs of a headgasket leak.

danny25

What's "Moly"?

I hate cars

It's a friction modifier/anti wear additive. Very effective during break-in. Most oils these days have very low doses. Redline is the only one I know of off the top of my head that has a large dose.

Aftermarket moly additives are very bad as they're not fully soluable in the oil and clump together eventually.

Roger555

iTrader: (3)

Do you use redline oil?