SodaLuvr

Users of Genuine Honda ATF-Z1 have found this fluid to turn dark brown and emit a "burnt" odor within a very short period of time, often in 30,000 miles or less, espcially in the V6 applications. As I have previously suspected, the Genuine Honda ATF-Z1's appearance of discoloration and "burnt" smell does not necessairly indicate that the fluid is no longer serviceable, as indicated by this bulletin from an A/T Replacement and Diagnostics bulletin. Mopar ATF+4 exhibits a similar behavior (discoloration and producing an odor), and Chrysler explicitly states in their owner's manual that a color change and odor production does not necessairly indicate the need for a fluid change.

A 62K UOA of the factory fill ATF in a '02 RSX 5-spd AT verifies the color/odor irrelevance:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...;f=50;t=000019

fsttyms1

Cool

smooth~silver_type_s

I don't care what honda/acura writes about the fluid. If it is smelling burn't, yellow, or dark brown, the fluid needs to be FLUSHED immediately!~ i.e drain and fill, drive, drain and fill, drive, drain and fill. I just did a quick search on yahoo, with the terms automatic transmission fluid, and burn't smell: here are some results:

http://argyll.epsb.ca/lemonproof/automatic.htm

http://www.quality-trans.com/faq/faq10.htm

http://rollingmotors.info/trans.html

This one even has many pictures, with dissected trannys with old burn't fluid to further educate you:

http://www.diynet.com/diy/ab_talk2di...048519,00.html

smooth~silver_type_s

also trans fluid is like 4 bucks a quart at your local honda dealer. You can buy some and do it yourself. You don't cheap out on your engine. You change the oil every 3,000miles religiously, why cheap out on the trans?? it makes no sense at all.

03CoupeV6

I am sure you, smoothsilvertypes, know more about Honda and their fluids and designs and characteristics than Honda themselves.. nevermind Honda designed and built them.

Furthermore, religious 3000 mile oil changes are nothing more than a waste of money. Proven.

smooth~silver_type_s

yes, trust everything honda said about the trannies, even though some folks here are on their 4th trannies x 2

smooth~silver_type_s

you get what you pay for in this life youngin'. There was a guy on good morning america who had a volvo that he drove for 800,000miles, original engine! his secret? changed the oil, every 3,000miles. but he's just an idiot.

lowws6

Fluid changes need to be done at regular intervals. Always remember you are taking life off the end of the vehicle so waiting 5000 miles for an oil change wont be noticeable until later down the road when you are spending $8000.00 on an engine at 150K miles. My car has 29K on it now and I am going in tomorrow for a trans service. What was that saying about an ounce of prevention?

subinf

Does this only apply to the Honda ATF or across the board? I know this refers to Honda but would it make sense to apply it to others?

SodaLuvr

There have been many interesting points brought up in this thread.

The trust issue with Honda with regards to their credibility about transmission design and durability may be somewhat legitimate given the past problems with their transmissions, though the problem appears to have been corrected at this point.

Honda is not the only manufacturer recommending longer service intervals for the transmission fluid. Nearly all manufacturers have gone to a fill-for-life standpoint, and this is certainly do able now given the enhanced additive technologies generated by companies such as Infinieum, who recently introduced a T4705 anti-shudder additive, that is designed to provide 5-7x the dynamic friction retention properties of current ATFs. There will always be the market push for longer service intervals, but fluid technology is constantly improved to meet the demands of those service intervals and needs of the OEM: increased fuel efficiency, reduced pollution, increased durability under high horsepower, and fill-for-life requirements.

I’m not surprised by the responses in this thread. In the past, loss of the red dye in ATFs was considered to be a death sentence- excessive oxidation and fluid overheating. Even today, not every single ATF will loose its red dye during the normal service life, but some will, i.e. Mopar ATF+4 and Genuine Honda ATF-Z1, and it must be understood that this is normal.

Remember, the red dye in the fluid is simply a dye…it may not be permanent. Fluids of various specs may use different dyes, and some of these dyes may loose their color more rapidly than others. Even if the brown fluid indicated oxidation had taken place, fluid oxidation is normal. Fluids today are capable of handling greater amounts of oxidation thanks to improved basestocks.

Basically, I think our discussion of the “ATF color” business has become another “HELP…MY ENGINE OIL IS BLACK…IS SOMETHING WRONG” type discussions. And has anyone even read the fluid analysis and the comments posted in the thread I linked to?

Also, your comment regarding the Volvo driver’s secret to have a long engine life, is quite uneducated. So what if he changed his oil every 3,000 miles? Can you accept the fact that an older Volvo engine may not be built to handle the same drain intervals as your modern Honda engine? Did you look into the possibility that the different designs are more detrimental to oil life than others? Did you look into the possibility that an older engine perhaps generates more blow-by, causing greater oil contamination and a reduction in the drain interval? Or perhaps even a very small sump in the Volvo? There are many factors to oil life and using a generic one-size fits all recommendation is not a good practice without taking into account each engine design and operating conditions, hence the invention of an oil life monitor, which bases drain intervals upon the individual engine design and driving profile.

As for more frequent maintenance equating to longer component service life? I’d like to see this statement be backed up with evidence. Sure, there may be many reports of drivers performing extremely frequent maintenance and having their vehicles last a very long time, yet on the other hand, there isn’t evidence stating that following the OEM drain interval for your recommended driving conditions will not accomplish the same. Yet many automatic transmissions are often designed for a service life in the 150-180K range, and are you certain that more frequent maintenance will yield a longer service life? And transmission life is also dependent on the driver as well, as gentle, careful driving, will definitely have a far greater impact on service life.

SodaLuvr

We’re at a point where we must begin to recognize the characteristics of these newer fluids, but still understand that fluid behavior varies depending on fluid type and transmission design. For Chrysler’s, the manual’s statement (fluid color change and odor production does not constitute the need for a fluid change), applies if and only if the Mopar ATF+4 is used. The statement may not apply if an aftermarket shop installed Dexron-IIIH/Mercon + Lubegard HFM additive and that particular mixed turn dark brown, smelling burnt, after being depleted. Same goes for Honda ATF-Z1. The suggestion of the S/B only applies if Genuine Honda ATF-Z1 is used. If someone puts in Amsoil ATF or over-the-counter Multi-Vehicle fluid, then the same warning may not apply as those other fluids may not exhibit the same behavior.

So I think the best answer to your question is to know the type/brand of fluid being used in the transmission, the number of miles it has been in service, and checking the OEM recommended drain intervals and any fluid condition notices against the fluid being used and the number of miles it has been in use. As a general rule, if the last fluid change has been > 60,000 miles, and the fluid appearance is poor, then I’d change the fluid. But given the high cost of the proprietary fluids on the market today, pumping out a small 4 oz sample of the transmission fluid and sending it in for an analysis is only $15, compared to an average of $75-$100 for a transmission fluid change.

subinf

Good to know. I appreciate the detailed response.

smooth~silver_type_s

Its too soon to say that the auto tranny problems are over. Bottomline: Honda is new to making really high powered cars, whereas GM and Ford have a history of making over-built trannys that can take abuse, and neglected service.

exactly what is there to be gained by not checking your own oil regularly, and changing it? Premium gas in the US right now is above 3 bucks a gallon, and you buy it. the tranny fluid from honda is 4 bucks a quart, and a drain and fill only takes 2.7 quarts!! It makees no sense whatsoever to cheap out on servicing the trans. 30,000miles is just a guideline. Check it yourself, and keep it red, since some of us abuse our cars, others go through punishing stop and go, while others are on the highway, daily.

used oil, cannot protect against high temps. These trannys are piss poorly desinged, and don't even have any means of cooling down, except the oil itself. I can understand this arguement being made in a C5 corvette forum, where their trannys are handling over 400rwhp, daily, and even those guys will give you sh1t for this. The fluid changes color in these cars, very rapidly. They then emit a STRONG burnt smell. Smell the new fluid in the bottle. it sure as heck doesn't smell, or look a thing like that.

look, guy, do what you want. If you bought a luxury car, and are desperately looking for ways to cheap out then, be my guest. It all points to the fact that you, like most americans, are living above your means. you want evidence, then I'll tell you about my friend john. he posts on here as johntypes. he bought an '01cls. virtually everyone else I know of in chicago with a cls has changed them multiple times before 100,000miles. do a seach, on the forums. Johns cls has had over 240 dyno runs, and over 300 runs at the dragstrip(he's modded to the teeth, with all the performance mods you can get, pushing over 240whp/204wtq) . at 50,000miles his trans is silky smooth, and he has already added insane forced induction. his secret? he changed his trans oil with redline high temp atf (synthetic) every 6.000miles or whenever he noticed a color changed. at the advice of comptech, he also added a transmission cooler. I've seen the results of being proactive with a glass tranny myself, in person.

smooth~silver_type_s

you don't need to pay those outrageous costs for a transmission fluid flush!! go to your local import shop, with 9 bottles of honda atf. ask them to do a drain and fill/drive x 3, and pay nothing more than 30 bucks for service. thats 57bucks. you already saved $18-$43 right there. without cheaping out on a very expensive part.

subinf

its much easier to just flush the fluid.

smooth~silver_type_s

again micheal wan, please look at the diagrams in this article about trans fluid color and smell:

http://www.diynet.com/diy/ab_talk2di...048519,00.html

SodaLuvr

Remember, I'm not against more frequent maintenance. Do whatever works for you. I'm just asking for concrete evidence of your statements (i.e. fluid analysis), not observations, that more frequent than needed servicing will extend service life of components. I understand that there are different operating conditions out there, hence the need for service intevals to be adjusted. Find the correct service interval for your application, and follow the guidelines set by the OEM. Servicing more frequently than needed does not necessairly and automatically equate to a longer life.

And this discussion isn't about cost. That's irrelevant. What we are discussing here is whether or not its actually needed.

And it appears that you haven't read the link to the fluid analysis I posted. Was the fluid analysis not of value to you?

Used oil can protect perfectly fine under high temps as long as it hasn't reached the end of its service life. Qualify your statement with your evidence. Of course, depleted transmission fluid will not protect well...let along under high temps. But the fluid hasn't reached that stage yet, and will not if changed per the service schedule.

And your statement of the automatic transmission fluid not having any means of cooling is incorrect. There is a heat exchanger that the ATF flows through will provide enough cooling under most driving conditions. Of course, if you’re modifying the heck out of your car, and running it in a fashion that it wasn’t originally designed for, then by all means, adding an extra cooler wouldn’t be a bad idea. But to say that the heat exchanger provides no cooling at all, is incorrect.

The point here is not about neglecting maintenance in an effort to save money, it is about following the correct service intervals listed by the manual, providing fluid analysis results to back up these intervals for those who distrust the OEM or are curious themselves, and seeking solid evidence from those who disagree.

I’m not sure how many people you know of in Chicago with a CL, Type S. How many CL-S owners do you know? 100? 300? 500? More than likely, the number of CL, Type S owners you know is only representative of a small # of CL cars nationwide. I used to believe that every 5-spd automatic of the old designed was predestined for a premature failure, but not until I saw the statistics from Acura, stating that only a small percentage of them failed. I still didn’t believe them, until I talked with several people I knew, and found that their TL, original 5-spd automatic transmissions had > 100,000 miles on them without issues. They didn’t even know of the transmission problems until I told them.

You also failed to mention more specifically, the conditions in which your fellow CL-S owners operate under in Chicago. Are they racing? Are their operating conditions in need of additional transmission cooling, and they are not aware of it? Is their cooling system functioning properly, especially the sensors and thermostat, as that can have an impact on many other factors?

And your buddy John may be doing his transmission a complete disfavor by using the RL High-Temp ATF. Not only is the added viscosity unneeded under normal driving (I’m assuming that he uses his CL for more than just racing), the High-Temp ATF fluid does not contain the correct dynamic friction properties for correct operation of the transmission. The shifts may seem “okay,” but his transmission is not shifting optimally and he may be generating premature wear on his torque converter and friction surfaces. If he insists on continuing to use the RL High-Temp ATF, he should add Lubegard HFM additive, also known as Lubegard “Black,” to the fluid, to add the correct friction modifiers. Better yet, he can save himself the trouble and use Amsoil ATF, which already contains the necessary friction modifiers for Honda Z1 applications, and is also a full synthetic.

SodaLuvr

Outrageous costs??? Where do you live??? Tell me where I can get someone to drain/fill my transmission fluid three times for $30 total, especially an import shop. A local shop will do the drain/fill for me for $15, each time, if I bring my own fluid. This is already the least expensive place to take the car to, and I highly doubt an import shop, specializing in imports, would have such a low labor fee. And am I supposed to use the least expensive shops to have my vehicle serviced? You said not to sacrifice your car…

And since when was it necessary to “flush” your transmission or do a multiple drain/fill??? Not necessary at all. And doing a 3x drain/fill isn’t very efficient either, as subinf pointed out. If you really desired a complete change, how difficult is it to drain/fill the transmission, unhook the return line to the transmission, and start the car in P, while allowing the transmission to purge itself until new fluid appears?

How credible is that article?

The statement of ATF staying red for the first 10-20K miles doesn’t illustrate the author’s knowledge and familiarity with modern fluids, for one thing.

I’ve seen Dexron-III(G), not the revised, but now extinct Dexron-III(H), go 70K with heavy towing, and the fluid was still in outstanding condition visually and according to my nose as well. The fluid drain interval was actually 50K in that case, and the fluid was run 40% longer than its recommended interval. And a pan drop and filter change only removed 1/3 of the fluid in that transmission. (’03 Sierra 1500 with 4L60E)

By the way, I do not disagree with the author of the mentioned article, that burned and completely oxidized fluid will not adequately lube the transmission. However, again, the color is simply a dye, and in this particular case, Honda has mentioned that color/odor is not an indication of the fluid condition. The color change may certainly indicate oxidation (which is perfectly normal), but does not mean the fluid is not serviceable.

And you seem to not understand OEM drain intervals, and how validation testing is performed. The components are tested under the worse case scenario, far more stressful conditions than one could possibly replicate on the road, with the exception of cars that are modified extremely. There is a tremendous margin of error in the OEM drain intervals.

Back when GM did the initial validation testing for their Oil Life System, the oil was actually run for “two oil lives” prior to changing and sampling. Even now, with the 12500 maximum oil change interval, any recommendation set by system carries at least a 3000 miles margin of error.

smooth~silver_type_s

First of all, the link you posted is to a tiny little automatic rsx, with as much torque as a bicycle. So yes, I didn't even waste my time. If the guy is using yellow burnt fluid on his tiny honda, then more power to him. Now, while I havent gotten out there and done an oil analysis, I just follow my damn manual which tought me that service intervals where just a general guildeline, and that I should CHECK MY OWN FLUID, by myself, and maintain my car accordingly.

USED oil is USED oil. I'm not going to take that kind of risk with my honda, given their automatic transmission, RECENT HISTORY.

look at the transmission:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/184466/27

show me the heat exchanger.

and driving a sports car like a it should be driven(i.e like a MAN), is by no means abuse, especially when it was advertised on tv as a "high performance automobile"

Your solid data, is of the wrong car, and therefore irrelevant. an internal document from honda to its service technicians, being touted here as the holy grail, does nothing but prove that honda will not undertake the COST of pushing fluids in high mileage vehicles with service issues.


and how did those people you talked to maintain their trannys? how did they use their cars? did they have a honda installed oil jet kit? what is an oil jet kit, and how does it affect transmission durability?

do they race? why the F**K not? a transmission takes far more abuse from grandma ethil in stop and go traffic at 98 degrees in the middle of the summer, than at wide open throttle, rowing through the gears at the local dragstrip.

smooth~silver_type_s

micheal, ive read your points, and anyone willing to gamble with not regulary "pushing fluids on their expensive luxury cars @ jiffy lube"- can be my guest. just don't come back here, and flood the forums with, useless posts about how your're 3rd gear clutch pack gave out on your honda. I wish these cars had over built trannys, but they don't. There is just no logical argument for not being pro active, and checking your engine, and transmission oil fluids, and changing them regularly as indicated by the color change. and since you like reading documents, here is one on the very honda 5at we are discussing:

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104677

after reading that, you take your own risks brotha. oh, and don't come back and say that the 04+ TL trannys are more durable, because we simply don't have the data to make that claim/honda still put oil jet kits in 04TL models, as well as a wide array of other honcura vehicles with the same 5at. bottomline, if you own a honda, do what I did: flush your trans regularly, install a b&m transmission cooler, and watch the color and/or smell of your automatic transmission fluid.

subinf

at least spell his name right if you have read all of his posts

SodaLuvr

The point of my link to the analysis results of an RSX was to verify Honda’s service intervals. It was not meant to be a comparison between the CL and RSX transmissions. Verification of Honda’s service interval only. Both are 5-spd Autos though…LOL.

Uhh…of course the service intervals are a guideline. There are always exceptions. But the listed service intervals work fine for the vast majority of drivers, and that’s their intent.

Your statement is ludicrous. What are you defining as used? 1000 miles? 3000 miles? 5000 miles?

Go look in your radiator area. Trace the transmission cooler lines. The transmission heat exchanger in a Honda/Acura is not similar to the internal setup of a VW ZF transmission. The lines are external. Go look for them.

And there’s a thread about it under the RR journals.

Data isn’t of the wrong car. Am I showing you the analysis results from a 3-spd ’95 Corolla running Dexron-II? But that’s beside the point.

The point I was trying to make with that analysis report was that someone with a somewhat similar setup, was attempting to verify Honda’s service intervals. He was following the recommended ATF drain interval set for his particular car, and he was using fluid analysis to verify that those intervals were actually possible. Again, I was using that report as credibility for Honda’s service recommendations, to prove that they were not randomly generated and that they are actually possible.

And your point about high mileage vehicles is??? The transmission is probably designed for around 150K of life. And if you haven’t figured it out already, Honda actually recommends that the service interval be halved after the initial fluid change to account for the rise in wear metals at some point in the future, and to replace more of the depleted fluid. So it shows their effort in making recommendations even for those who plan to run their cars for a long time.

They were maintained per the Honda severe service schedule. 60K for the initial change, every 30K thereafter. And yes, they had the oil jet kit installed.

And I know you are familiar with the oil jet kit…so why do you want me to explain it??? And btw, the oil jet kit covers a very small percentage of problems occurring with these transmissions.

And how were they driven? They were normally under severe service, similar to how many TL/CL vehicles are driven. Those who race need to have beefed up cooling if they determine so, and they understand that their components may possibly suffer from greater wear and possibly a shorter service life.

Well I guess it also depends how you drive it at the dragstrip.

ProvidenceLeaf

I just wanted to throw my in here. Please keep in mind that I take care of my TL much better. I drive much less since my commute to work is now cut down from 160 miles a day round trip to about 20 miles round trip. I change the oil every 4000-5000 miles and did a tranny fluid flush at scheduled times and I just went through a tranny failure.

My previous car was a 2000 Infinity Q45t. I racked up 203000 miles on it before I traded it in. Since I drove it so many miles (about 5000 miles a month) I got careless with oil changes and scheduled maintainance. Can you imagine changing the oil every month? I got so lazy with maintaining that car that I waited 20000 miles a few times before I changed the oil and I NEVER did any fluid flushes to ANY other part of the car. Ridiculous huh? Some of my freinds thought I was crazy and said if you paid almost $40000 for a used car then I should be able to afford to take care of it better. It wasn't the $$$. It was more of a time thing, and then I just got too comfortable not maintaining the car, and I NEVER had any mechanical problems with this car.

Anyway, last summer the check engine light went on and I had to replace an o2 sensor. So I started to think I needed a new car soon with all the miles and how lucky I had been with a lack of maintainance. I did maintain the things that I had no choice to do. In the 3 years that I owned my Q45 I replaced the tires once, did the brake pads three times, rotors once, and had to charge the AC once. I had to think long and hard about this and that is really all the maintainance that I did.

My whole point it is that it depends on the car. I totally agree that some of the maintainance is overkill. The Volvo story is a good example. I think my Infinity story is a good example of the other extreme.(lack of maintainance) I just had to share since you were all talking about thins kind of stuff.

BTW...one of the salesman at the dealership ended up buying my Infiniti right after I traded it in. The car was almost mint on the inside and out even with the miles. I still see the slaesman and the car once in a while. It has 245000 miles on it now and he hasn't had one problem with it yet. Maybe I should have kept that car huh? I still love my TL even with my recent tranny issue.

fsttyms1

And i have a J32A1 sitting in my garage with 200,000 miles on it on 15k change intervals. It runs (ran) perfect not a drop of fluid burnt. You can still see teh original cross hatching in the cylinders. 3000 miles is a waste of money.

fsttyms1

On and 1 more thing smooth~silver_type_s.. Do you even know that the problem is with or trans?? If you do you will realize that changing the fluid will do NOTHING to help it. I changed the trans fluid at every 8k and that tranny only lasted 30 some k. the problem with the trans is improper cooling to the 3rd gear and under and sized 3rd gear clutch pack, and thats not something that changing your fluid often will solve

Also the Oil Jet Kit IS NOT for the 3rd gear clutch pack problem, so you can keep that out of your argument

JDM5lugHatch

Ok my now. These trannies do have problems. I have one with mine and I can tell you exactly what causes it. Heat! My tranny during the summer in stop and go traffic will get sluggish and not shift into first so it ends up taking off in 2nd.

I have 2 ideas. The first was to install a transmission oil cooler. You can get a good B&M one on ebay for $30. This should prevent this problem. However, the problem is where to install it. The only place to tap into the tranny is at the oil jet. I am unsure if this is a good or bad thing to install it there though. So I have been trying to do research on it when time permits. Also, if I do run into a tranny failure with the cooler then I will need to remove it before the car goes into the dealership otherwise I can see a deny on my warranty claim. I really don't want to risk this.

My second idea is to swap out the fluid with Redline ATF fluid. Comptech claims that they got a 20 degree drop with this fluid. This sounds like the best choice to me. The fluid for a full flush or change would run approx. $100-$130. So with these choices I really don't know what to do. Both seem like they would help and I would really like to do the tranny cooler but fear of failure and warranty denial isn't really worth the risk. The dealer could also try for denial of the warranty with the redline fluid in there as well though.


Sorry if this was a bit off topic however all these points were brought up.

fsttyms1

well in the 2nd gen they do nothing to help save it, and the dealer will honor the warranty with one

SodaLuvr

Interesting.

It all boils down to "heat."

Tranny fluid can tolerate heat generated in daily traffic, but of course, the more heat, the shorter the service life of the fluid will be. But often times, > 60,000 miles is normal even for transmission fluids that are run "hot." Modern fluids are more capable of handling high-temp conditions that previous ones.

Also, I would not use Redline ATF in any Honda/Acura transmission, regardless of what RL/Comptech say, unless you were adding Lubegard HFM additive at 1oz/qt. The Redline fluid does not contain the necessary dynamic friction retention for the Honda transmission to shift properly.

smooth~silver_type_s

Actually, I do know quite a bit about what the problem was with the trans. first of all there were sporadic QA/QC problems, during the early builds. Some where just not manufactured to spec. They were also being manufactured in japan and the US at the same time. The main problem was that the third gear clutch packs, burn't, causing spontaneous downshifts, as the tranny fell through the gears. they burn't because they got too hot(400 degrees). This occured during repeated 2-3 upshifts/downshifts at wot. The specifications for the plate roughness at the time, was designed with smooth shifting in mind. Old acura trannys like the ones in the legend, had different specs, and shifted real hard. eventually the 3rd gear clutch pack surface roughness was changed sometime in late 2002. the oil jet kit is to help cool, and the clutch packs and help prolong the life of the tranny, sort of a bandaid fix.

smooth~silver_type_s

I have an '03 honda accord with the oil jet kit + tranny cooler installed. They won't say sh1t if it fails and I bring it in cause, I have the recall letter, and I did the install at the same dealership, where I bought the car. You can go with the comptech redline atf fluid. Just make sure its redline high temp atf, not d4 atf. our oem fluid is actually better than d4, which thins out under the intense heat our tranny generates(seen it myself).

goodluck

SodaLuvr

Uhh....do you even know what you're talking about regarding D4 ATF???

I think I now remember who you are. Weren't you the guy who posted in 2G TL a while back about the cooler install?

OEM fluid is better than D4 ATF???

Genuine Honda ATF is a conventional fluid, and D4 ATF is a synthetic (PAO/Ester ?) mix. The additive pack of the Honda's is better, but the D4 ATF certainly isn't "inferior" to the Genuine Honda ATF. But this is a poor comparison, as D4 ATF (or High-Temp ATF) is not designed for use in Honda apps without the addition of Lubegard Black for the correct friction modification.

And I have no clue why anyone would use High-Temp ATF under street driving. Its unnecessary. There's no need to use a fluid with such a high viscosity for street driving.

And you have issues with D4 ATF in your Accord? Now I remember. If you added "straight" D4 ATF into the transmission, mixed with ATF-Z1, the shifts may be slightly "harder" for a short period of time as the old fluid remaining still contains the correct friction properties. Over time, the friction modifiers are worn out, so the differences in shift quality are more noticeable.

As for ATF thinning, all ATFs thin. Period. They'll thin to about 6 cst after 20K, then slowly thicken.

smooth~silver_type_s

micheal,
First of all, let me clarify that I am not trying to come across as attacking you, as, you have been a great help to me, regarding the issue of which fluid to use.

I doubt that regular D4 redline atf, is any better than ATF-Z1. Yes I did use somewhat of a mix, because the oem fluid still remained in the torque converter, after my drain and fill. That might have explained the harsh shifting of the tranny. I suspect that the "synthetic" brand is not really a "synthetic" per say, and is marketed as a synthetic through a legal loop hole. I remember seeing its flash point as 325 degrees while the oem honda stuff is 385 degrees, thus the superiority of the petroleum based honda brand.

D4 is also a dextron III based fluid(GM spec trans fluid). The manual writes about the allowable use of Dextran III based fluids, but only as a temporary measure. After seeing it thin out after less than 10K miles of highway driving, I understood why that was clearly stated in the manual.

comptech suggested redline HIGH TEMP atf, as a supplement to the trans cooler, to "further cool the tranny", for those with the super charger unit. oddly enough comptech only sells high temp, not D4, and recommends it for those with just I,H,E like myself. I doubt the lubricative properties of D4, and High temp are different, and per their site: the only difference between the two is that the high temp maintains itself longer at high temps than the regular D4.

now for what I did after reading your advice:
1.
- purchased used '03TLS (42,000miles)
- tranny flush after purchase, because the fluid was yellow and smelt burn't, 3x drain and fill+drive.
-added b&*m trans cooler to the '03TLS( manufactured september of 2002, vin number well clear of the affected models, different clutch packs, and no oil jet kit needed) trans fluid drain and fill
-added comptech intake and headers (227whp/195wtq)
- after reading your pm all the trans fluid used was genuine honda ATF.
-after several runs at 3 different tracks over the last 3 weeks, tranny is doing great, and the oem fluid is staying bright pink, thanks to the trans fluid, with no burn't smell

2.- added b&m tranny cooler to '03 accord coupe. (intake/exhaust-50,000miles, oil jet kit + over 50 runs at the dragstrip).
- oem fluid was already smelling burn't and yellow since the 45,000mile flush. Did a drain and fill after the b&m install, and the fluid has stayed pink and odour free since, thanks to the added cooling.

JDM5lugHatch

So how did you install your cooler? Did you use the oil jet lines? That's the only place it looks like you can tap into for tranny oil.

JDM5lugHatch

Tell me why my normal transmission works perfectly approx. 8 months out of the year on the east coast. When I drive my car hard and in the city (stop and go) after about 30-45 mins into my drive on say a high 80's-90 degree day I can pull up to a stop light and the car will barely take off from the light. The reason the car is so damn slow is because the car isn't going into 1st gear it's taking off in 2nd every single time and you have to wait till vtec kicks in before the car even feels normal again. I know this is caused by high internal tranny temps. There are no forms of cooling on this transmission. Hell honda preludes in Auto trim had lines running to the radiator at least. I believe that a tranny cooler would at least fix this problem and possibly extend the life of the tranny by a good bit.

smooth~silver_type_s

here are the comptech instructions:

http://www.comptechusa.com/store/med...Cooler2005.pdf

the shop that did the install had to re-route a few of the hoses, cut different lengths due to the oil-jet kit installed.

JDM5lugHatch

See those instructions won't work for the 3GTL. The reason being is there is no stock transmission cooler. It actually uses the fluid and the oil jet to cool the fluid. It doesn't work very well though. I am kinda afraid to tap into the oil jet kit and cause oil flow problems.

smooth~silver_type_s

oh, you have a 3GTL. I have an 2G TLS, and an '03 honda accord coupe. Sorry bud. The '03 accord does have the tranny cooler and the oil jet. I think they tapped into the oil jet kit. Personally I don't give a dam as long as its on there.

SodaLuvr

No worries.

I’d like to see your sources.

The RL D4 ATF, has a Flashpoint of 437F, and the High-Temp ATF has a Flashpoint of 460F. The C+ ATF has a flashpoint of 432F.

All of the results I have with Honda ATF-Z1, most run between 20-30K, have had the flashpoint in the 350-360F range at the end of the test.

I only have one RL ATF UOA on file, and it was the C+, the flashpoint had read > 400F after 12K and 30K on the transmission.

I have several Amsoil ATF UOAs, but no “virgin” flashpoint to compare to. But all at the end of the test, were > 400F. One of them was a Ford 4R70W, and the entire service interval was done when the transmission cooler was completely plugged, totally unknown until later.

My memories with my discussion with RL’s tech department concluded that RL uses mostly PAO/Esters I believe in their fluids. Maybe a very small percentage of Grp III, but that’s it. RL is in the business of the “best” so to speak, hence their high prices and “boutique” status.

You’re still misunderstanding this.

The manual allows you to use Dexron-III to get home in the event that you’re stuck in the middle of no where with no Honda ATF-Z1 available. They recommend a 3x drain/fill immediately for restoring shift quality, as Dexron-III does not contain the correct dynamic friction properties for a Honda transmission.

It has NOTHING to do with thinning. I do not understand where you are obtaining this “thinned out in 10K of highway driving” is from ???

And the lasting longer at high temperatures is meant for track use, obviously.

And you can see it by the higher flashpoint, less evaporative loss at high temperatures.

Comptech probably wanted to make a fluid recommendation that would cover its track customers. The High-Temp ATF is probably a better choice for track use but overkill for daily driver. Plus, I have no clue how a transmission would shift like with High-Temp ATF (100% High-Temp ATF). Also, whoever may the recommendation that RL ATF “straight” in a Honda transmission should do more research.

And synthetic fluids may sometimes cool, but I do not know of the exact #s.

As for the transmission problem (other person), I’m suspecting that it’s a software problem rather than a cooling problem (though it can be both). I’ll check and get back to you.

Every Honda transmission has a heat exchanger. Go look for it. Its there. Otherwise, why does Honda’s transmission repair instructions calling for “flushing the heat exchanger” as part of the new installation instructions.

smooth~silver_type_s

I think I have a clue why comptech recommended high temp ATF for even street driving. Read this:

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104677

the gist of it is that honda was able to replicate the 3rd gear clutch pack tranny failures, during their inital investigations, buy subjecting cars to repeated 2-3 upshift/downshift @ wot. they also measured the temps and stated that the clutch packs got to over 400 degrees!! now the flash point of the oem fluid is 385 degrees, and offers no protection at those rediculous temps. The tranny has hot spots around the clutch packs reaching these temps, so comptech recommends the use of high temp atf, for street driving because it involves a lot of upshifts and downshifts. Their clearly stated thinking is cooler temps via the cooler, + additional cooler temps via their high temp fluid= longer tranny life. They are probably aware of the lubrication difference between the redline and oem, as well as the dextron III issue, however they still risk this fluid because of the type of temps they saw from the tranny!!

smooth~silver_type_s

wether the dextran III was related to thinning was pure speculation. Anyways the manual recommended against it, so I quit using redline, and did the redline thing only once.

comptech is recommending it for track use, yes(assuming that those who look into purchasing a super charger for their accord/cl/tl, will probably drag race), but also for anyone installing their B&M trans cooler in their accord/cl/tl, because in the instructions for tranny cooler installation, it states, to drain the oem, then add "straight" high temp atf.