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If the synchro teeth on the gear and/or sleeve are worn enough to where its popping out, no fluid is going to remedy it.
Unless there are dozens of actual owners who have 100K's of miles of real life experience that contradict this........................
I will give you that if they are THAT worn, yes what you have here is very likely true, but from Azine members (including yours truly) that hasn't been the case.
Unless there are dozens of actual owners who have 100K's of miles of real life experience that contradict this........................
I will give you that if they are THAT worn, yes what you have here is very likely true, but from Azine members (including yours truly) that hasn't been the case.
Unless there are dozens of actual owners who have 100K's of miles of real life experience that contradict this........................
I will give you that if they are THAT worn, yes what you have here is very likely true, but from Azine members (including yours truly) that hasn't been the case.
That's cool and all except you don't know what you're talking about.
How many transmissions have you personally taken apart?
As an engineer with three of the world's automotive manufacturers on my resume, probably more than you. That said, I don't try and throw my weight around like you.
That's cool and all except you don't know what you're talking about.
Hmmm, so you are invalidating or completely discounting my own personal experience? That's interesting
Just so we are on the same page - I'm not discounting your experience or transmission building skills but when you make blanket statements as above it just shows that you are close minded and unwilling to accept anything other than what you personally know and that is going to make your life significantly more difficult than it needs to be. If you are looking to expand your sphere of influence, share and contribute to a forum such as Azine, let me just personally say you are going about it all wrong.
As an engineer with three of the world's automotive manufacturers on my resume, probably more than you. That said, I don't try and throw my weight around like you.
What fluid can I use that will prevent this gear from popping out? I'm dying to know.
And again, I do not care about your modesty or opinion of my immodesty. This is an online automotive web-forum. People do not come to this website because of modest personalities.
What fluid can I use that will prevent this gear from popping out? I'm dying to know.
I haven't read all of your posts in this thread, but my one-person experience with GM's manual trans fluid mirrors the advice given here. If you have any data spread over, say, fifty plus unique 3G TL owners to show that something else beyond sending the gearbox to a transmission guru like Brian Copans (sorry, don't know any Honda trans wizards) for him to re-engineer is a better solution, that would be enlightening to see.
I think there are a couple of points being missed here. I agree with Bense that it doesn't make any sense from a logical mechanical engineering perspective that a fluid change will stop the gear pop-outs and other common complaints. But....there are many of us on here that have had no/less issues since switching to the GMSMFM fluids. I never had gear pop-outs, but I had extremely difficult gear engagement when using the Honda stuff that mostly went away once I switched fluids.
Do any of us that swear by the GM juice understand root cause analysis of the trans issues? Nope. But we know that the issues we experienced went away. Not just 3 or 4 of us.....lots and lots of us. It would be awesome if someone with enough engineering background could dig in deeper to understand how/why fluids make things better.....but most of us don't have that background, nor time, nor interest to dig that deeply into it.
I think there are a couple of points being missed here. I agree with Bense that it doesn't make any sense from a logical mechanical engineering perspective that a fluid change will stop the gear pop-outs and other common complaints. But....there are many of us on here that have had no/less issues since switching to the GMSMFM fluids. I never had gear pop-outs, but I had extremely difficult gear engagement when using the Honda stuff that mostly went away once I switched fluids.
Do any of us that swear by the GM juice understand root cause analysis of the trans issues? Nope. But we know that the issues we experienced went away. Not just 3 or 4 of us.....lots and lots of us. It would be awesome if someone with enough engineering background could dig in deeper to understand how/why fluids make things better.....but most of us don't have that background, nor time, nor interest to dig that deeply into it.
Because it is thicker, more viscous oil than the Honda MTF.
I got my prototype BenseBuilt close-ratio transmission off and split apart. All the parts in this bad boy were either brand new, sealed OEM Honda parts or cherry picked from my pool 'o parts to select the ones that were in best condition. I assembled it and installed it on my car this past July 27th, and I have driven it every day since. Over 10k miles.
Most of the internals are FK8 components (as in synchro hubs/synchro sleeves/synchros, forks etc). However with my Frankenstein gear concoction is comprised of gears from 7 different vehicle models.
All I have used is conventional walmart motor oil in this transmission and everything looks great.
I personally don’t have a manual transmission in my TL. But I’ve read a lot of what Bense has posted over the years. I’m not saying he knows it all, but the guy does know a thing or two about transmissions. And a lot of other things. I don’t like the negativity that people are presenting, over a person just stating something that works for him, and has. Just like everyone that has posted about the GM synchromesh. If I had a manual transmission, I’d prob go the same route, prior to hearing what Bense has posted. So, everyone needs to take a step back, and realize that maybe one way works, and multiple others do as well. Also, maybe at a cost differential.
I for one am not here to argue for or against. Like Bense said this is a car forum, and people can voice their opinion, and then back it up with facts. Or not. No one, meaning me or anyone else can devise what the best fluid is. Heck, if we all thought the manufacturer produced the best fluid, why would we be here talking about it? Really? It’s now 2021, let’s either be humble, or just don’t post. It’s like back in grade school, “yo my Nike’s are the best!” Lmfao!
I do have a question for you Bense! Regarding a manual transmission in a different vehicle...
I think there are a couple of points being missed here. I agree with Bense that it doesn't make any sense from a logical mechanical engineering perspective that a fluid change will stop the gear pop-outs and other common complaints. But....there are many of us on here that have had no/less issues since switching to the GMSMFM fluids. I never had gear pop-outs, but I had extremely difficult gear engagement when using the Honda stuff that mostly went away once I switched fluids.
Do any of us that swear by the GM juice understand root cause analysis of the trans issues? Nope. But we know that the issues we experienced went away. Not just 3 or 4 of us.....lots and lots of us. It would be awesome if someone with enough engineering background could dig in deeper to understand how/why fluids make things better.....but most of us don't have that background, nor time, nor interest to dig that deeply into it.
Agree with that statement but it's fair to say the root cause is the synchro's and their operation in the 6MT.
As to why the GMSMFM works better, who knows?
I'm guessing it's the GMSMFM semi-syn lubricant with it's friction modifier composition that makes it easier for the 3G 6MT synchro's to operate.
Synchro's are sorta a black art in their design and engineering, so much so that Porsche even used Borg Warner synchro's in some of their manuals instead of their own design.
FWIW, YouTube channel DrivwelineMaster has a excellent ~8 minutes video that shows how a typical synchro works to the cone/blocker ring and clutching teeth.
Go to ~4:10 in the video which shows how the cutback of the locking teeth hold the gear in place, including improper engagement of the gear.
I just measured my mainshaft 4th/5th distance collar, my custom shim, my modified 4th gear needle bearing, and mainshaft 6th gear collar.
I wasn't going to bother, but then I realized I had taken pics of a few different measurements. Everything is exactly the same.
I had not taken a pic of my mainshaft 6th distance collar. I just measured it at 26.05mm, then pulled up the service manual to see what it's supposed to be.
Mainshaft 6th gear distance collar standard service limit:
26.03 - 26.08mm.
My mainshaft 6th gear synchro cone has seen a little bit of heat. However I was expecting this because I did not manage to get the oil passage grooves cut into my DIN 988 round shim that I'm using to fit a 5th gear as my 6th. It looks better than I feared it might look, but I'm definitely going to need to update my design.
I knew I shouldn't have listened to Geoff's slack ass!
I'm gonna tear off a 2" square of 200 grit, clean up this synchro cone and then wash it off in the sink.
I am not able to measure any wear in my transmission. Even when I mix everything all up with the Frankenstein concoction with custom shims, OEM gears I've put on a lathe, brand new LSD, and a bunch of other crap that "shouldn't" work.
I guess I'm going to just keep using this Walmart motor oil lol
So I dug up the stock, used AWD TL 5th and 6th gears that I have leftover from a previous build that entailed me upgrading the AWD TL 5th & 6th gears in favor of FK8 5th and 6th.
Curiously, they also have very similar markings / wear on them. They still have the unmistakable Honda MTF putrid smell, so obviously I never used these in any of my transmissions. This leaves me to believe that the issue isn't 100% attributed to the modifications I've made. 🤔
Keep patting yourself on your back, nobody else is impressed.
Didn't your mother ever tell you “if you don’t have anything good to say, shut the fuck up?”
Seriously, I know you have knowledge of a lot of things. But you do show how you were raised, and not only in this thread. I’ve seen your posts in others, and it’s kinda odd. I mean you’re 64, and acting like you’re 16.
Didn't your mother ever tell you “if you don’t have anything good to say, shut the fuck up?”
Seriously, I know you have knowledge of a lot of things. But you do show how you were raised, and not only in this thread. I’ve seen your posts in others, and it’s kinda odd. I mean you’re 64, and acting like you’re 16.
Just keep things civil. Is that too much to ask?
Like it or don't, I've shut the fuck up for the last four years listening to this prima donna's non-stop noise and self promotion. How long do you suggest shutting the fuck up?
Perhaps it's time to start your own Bense's Transmission Thread @Bense Not sure why beating a dead horse in this thread is a good use of time.
I agree. If I actually understood what Bense was up to, what the build was for, the lessons learned, etc...I would probably be way more interested than the current randomness that is in this thread.
Perhaps it's time to start your own Bense's Transmission Thread @Bense Not sure why beating a dead horse in this thread is a good use of time.
I wanted to include the actual measurements that I recorded after using nothing but 10w30. Nonetheless, I will create a new thread within the next few days after I finish putting my car back together.
I honestly don't know shit about transmissions, but I absolutely noticed a marked improvement when I went to AC Delco Synchromesh in my newish to me UA6. No more annoying 3rd gear synchro issues. Hell yes!
I wanted to include the actual measurements that I recorded after using nothing but 10w30. Nonetheless, I will create a new thread within the next few days after I finish putting my car back together.
When you do, i'll move all this nonsense over there and delete the trash
Although the helical gear limited slip differential on the 6MT is not a official Torsen differential, it uses the same basic concept of "one way worm gears" to act as a limited slip diff.
I'm guessing many (most?) of the original Torsen differential patents have expired.
So here's how the 6MT diff works, which is pretty cool from a mechanical point of view
12-29-2020, 08:07 AM
Wise move, not worth engaging the troll.
Not sure why beating a dead horse in this thread is a good use of time.
