I know I know... there are tons of lemon law posts on this forum and Im not going to sit down and say my car has had THESE issues so Im lemoning it...

No, I wont do that...but from my calculations my car has been in the shop for 34 days in 11 months (i include a 8 am drop off and 8 pm pick up as 1 day) for issues ranging from squeeks and rattles to alignment issues, paint quality issues, etc.

None of them, besides the alignment issue, were saftey hazards, but none the less it has been in service for 34 days...this does include the 2 weekends that they kept the car...

I called Acura corporate and they told me that they had 10 claims and 10 R.O. numbers but they did not know how long it had been kept in the shop...so I took out all my service records and calculated it...not including my maintinance visits.

In any event they told me to call the better business buraeu or my acura sales manager who sold me the car and ask for a replacement...or something of that nature.

My question is does anyone know if this will qualify for a lemon? I read the lcalifornia aw and it states that if your car is in service for more than 30 days for any reason during the warranty period that you can claim it...

I have an 05 WDP non navi...you think I can sucker them into upgrading me to an 06 with navi? lol...thats just a fantasy...but ye what do you guys think?

I'd appreciate ANYYY comments.

 

what was the car in for? Is it life-threatening?

Or are you just regretting getting this particular TL?

One of your last line jumped up at me "I can sucker them into upgrading me to an 06 with nav"

When most people who really have a problem serious enough to warrant lemon law buy back they would not look at the same car again. But somehow you're ok and WANT to get another TL.

So.. again, what was the car in for?

 

California Lemon Law, the car is presumed to be a lemon (under “Tanner”) if car is:

1) For personal use or business use in a fleet of less then 5 vehicles
2) Within 18 months or 18,000 miles whichever comes first
3) non-conformities exist, (problems that affect the value, use or safety if the vehicle TO THE CONSUMER) that cause the car to be:
i) in the shop 30 days or more, (calendar days including weekends)
or ii) four repair attempts
or iii) two repair attempts w/life threatening problems.
4) You have given the manufacture written notice of your issues, (see the warranty book if there are any special requirements for this notice).

The i-iii, are intended to give the manufacture a reasonable opportunity to repair the vehicle. If you don’t meet 1-4 this doesn’t mean the car isn’t a lemon, just that it is not presumed to be a lemon. If the car is presumed to be a lemon, it becomes the manufactures burden to prove the car isn’t a lemon.

Either replacement or repurchase of the vehicle can be awarded. Under a replacement award, the car must be replaced with a NEW motor vehicle substantially identical to the vehicle replaced, (the manufacture will also have to pay all the tax a licensing fees). So yes if there are no 05’s available then you may be awarded an 06.

Under a repurchase award they will have to buy the vehicle at the price you purchased it including sales tax and license fees but excluding consumer or manufacture installed options, (watch out for extended warrantees). There is also an offset for the value of use which is essentially ((Mileage at first repair attempt) * purchase price) / 120,000

Yes use the BBB if possible, there will be a hour or so hearing, (bring all documentation you have), and you will have the option to agree to the arbitrators decision or not, but if you agree w/the arbitrator then the decision is binding on the manufacture. So its really a no lose proposition. Also if the arbitrator issues a denial decision, and the car has more problems you can go back to the bbb w/the new evidence.

And many people have their cars lemoned and want the same car, just one that works! Which is what they wanted to buy in the first place! Hey, every once in a while a bad one rolls of the line, or the dealers mechanics just arent up to snuff or don't give you problems enough attention.

Also if the car is lemoned, the manufacture must brand the title as a lemon and identify this fact with any subsequent buyer of your old car.
pts w/life threatining

 

Hey kennyc...I assuming you only selectively read through the post and didnt pay much attention to the rest...the answeres to all your questions are actually all in there.

In any event the car currently is in (and has been in for the past 7 days) for a bumper repaint (due to chipping and peeling of the paint from underneath the tail lights, and also for a subwoofer rattle and a drivers window air noise...this is because they kept messing with the door and the run channels and they've made it worse.

As I stated in the original post none of the issues were saftey related except for the 2 times that it had to go in for major freeway speed drifting to the left.

I love my TL...I love everything about it...and as DevTL mentioned, I just want one that works...I hate driving enterprise rental cars or little TSX's every other week...its annoying me...I just want to wake up and drive my car and enjoy it!

The last line, again as mentioned, was just a joke...I know thats not possible...but I can fantasize, cant I?

Hope I answered all your questions.

Cheers

 

DevTL Thank you for your very illuminating reponse...I believe everything that I needed to know is in there and I appreciate you taking the time to write it!

I do qualify for 1-3...as for 4, I have not sent a letter to Acura yet. I called their customer support and stated my intention and they made note of it, but no formal letter.

Do you know what exactly I would need to write in this letter?

I can tell them that I intend on exercising my lemon law rights and have the car bought back or replaced...and tell them that my records indicate that these days my car has been in service which totals to 34 days....

something like that?

If anyone has an outline or a template....I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!

 

Not to get you going here...it just might....but I am the type of guy who will call it like I see it to some degree.....

You actually probably caused many of your rattles by continuing to bring it into the dealer and having the repetitively take apart the doors chasing every rattle you could hear. It almost sounds like they just kept doing their thing to your car, making it worse and worse as they keep taking it apart and putting it back together....but it was at your request? I do understand your desire to have the perfect car...but did you not see that "assembled in Ohio" statement on the decal?

Second....there are LOTS of rattles in this car that are going to be almost impossible to remedy due to the several different materials used ...ie....metal trim, plasic, leather, ect - I notice this even more pronounced in cold weather...so I think some of this is just going to happen regardless? Thats just my theory though....but I decided a while back ago after hearing all the horror stories about then getting worse after having them dealt with at the dealer...that I decided it was because the more you take it apart and put it together...the more "play" you are gonna get in the fit...making even more rattles. SO...I just leave be and deal....and fact is...I really dont have any that I can even remember? You may be chasing a never ending battle here on the rattles.

Now...I think part of the prob in the lemon law comes in that they are going to tell you they were doing good will work as it was your "perception" that the car was flawed...but in fact...it works as designed in most cases. The alignment issue is a solid arguement, especially if it was a repeating problem. Paint...peeling is an issue....but these are not repeated issues. I think you have to take the car in for X times for them to fix a mechanical prob. and they cant fix it - not different issues that add up....that would fall under a good will decision on the area rep...not lemon laws. Is this the case here?

 

You should call a lemon law attorney. I just finished a lemon law case, and attorney is the only way to go. They will review your documents an tell you if you have a case. In CA, they legally cannot charge you, win or lose. Therefore, if they review your documents and take your case, you already won.

My attorney was Todd Friedman at Krohn and Moss. Call him at 323-988-2400.

Good luck!

Steve

 

You're right, it was late last night and I missed some of your post.

As streese recommended, you should talk to a lemon law lawyer in your area. They are far more knowledgeable than what you can get from here.

And as Michael mentioned about rattle. That is the exact reason why I fix my rattle. You will always be more careful with your own car than someone else.

Good luck!

 

I know someone who used the Lemon Law in our state to get a refund on his Chrysler van and he didn't need a lawyer. The moonroof leaked and the dealer couldn't fix it in three tries. That's all he needed to show.

He presented the facts and supporting documents to an arbitrator and that's all it took.

 

But if it costs you nothing, why deal with the stress, headache, and constant communication.

I faxed my paperwork, signed three forms, and dropped my car off two months later. In California, the manufacturer has to pay the attorney fees, and if you lose, the attorney can't charge anyone. So if the attorney is willing to take the case, as mine did, then your odds of being successful are ridiculously high.


Steve

 

In my opinion, this was not the intent of the lemon law. I believe the lemon law was meant to protect consumers from vehicles with constant serious issues that either put them at risk or render them without use of the vehicle. IMO your case falls more under typical warranty issues.

If I were to bring my TL in every Friday over perceived rattles (real or imagined) that they need to investigate and fix, I could easily rack up 30+ days in no time and wohooo new vehicle every year or so

 

Hello Michael,

Unforunately I saw the "assembled in Ohio" decal a little later...I was trying so hard to stay away froma American cars, and here I go buying one in the end!

In any event, if I was actually going to hand in my car for every single rattle, then lets change that figure I gave you guys earlier...instead of having it in service for 34 days in 11 months, I would have only HAD it for 34 days in 11 months! I am a DIY man...I take care of a lot of issues myself... Bare in mind any rattle I had, I isolated it, found the fix, and if I couldnt do it myself I would walk the technician through it....

As in any case, if you open and close something too much, you are bound to make it worse...and you are absolutely right.

So guys before you judge me and call me one of those guys who takes in his car for the slightest ticking noise, bare in mind im an avid acurazine reader...And like you said I definately would take care of my own car better than anyone else!

If and when I go its out of total and utter annoyance with something that I cannot fix and is totally impairing my driving experience.

Thanks and Cheers

 

Abbass: DevTL gave a good summary of the CA lemon law - check out the BBB's website for California lemon law claims for additional info and read everything!

I won my case against Acura on my O4 TL last year after my car was in the shop for 11+ times covering 33 days. Problems such as tranny whines, vibrations, alignment, rattles, falling headliner, etc. Some were minor, others were major to me. Even though I met the minimum requirements of the CA lemon law, the law is somewhat limited by a "reasonableness" test - check out the case Ford vs Lundy it is what Acura based their case against me on. In short, if a reasonable person wouldn't consider the problems to be defects, the lemon law doesn't apply. Acura tried to state that the problems that my car had were normal operating conditions of my car. I countered their claim by having a witness at my hearing and paid for TWO independent service technicians to examine my car and write a report. I also insisted on BBB to pay for a third party to examine my car in addition to the test drive with the arbitrator (btw - Acura had to pay for all my costs including the independent tests). A fellow TL'er in Colorado lost his case (which was very similar to mine) a couple weeks after I did because he only went on a test drive and the arbitrator, using the reasonableness test, concluded that the car didn't have any "defects".

I could go on and on about this subject - so if you want any specific details, advice, etc. please PM me... I'd be more than happy to help.

btw - Acura was anything but friendly and cooperative during this process...

sftroy

 

Well the arbitration process is intended to be accessible to persons without an attorney, and I would hazard a guess that a VAST majority of complainants are not represented by an attorney. It’s not true that the attorney can’t charge you, though there are many who take these cases on a contingency basis, (where you don’t pay the ATTORNEY if he looses), but there are still issues regarding filing fees and other court fees that you may be liable for, (there are issues if the attorney pays for these fees on your behalf). But yes if you win the manufacture will be held liable to pay your attorney fees.

If a manufacturer participates in an approved arbitration program, (as acura does with the BBB), then to get the benefit of the Tanner presumption you will have to go through the BBB arbitration. Though some attorneys just won’t present any evidence on their clients behalf and just loose the case so they can either settle the case or go to court.

One of the downfalls of going through the BBB process it that the arbitrators decision can be produced in court, but you will always have the option to get an attorney and go to court after the arbitration.

 

In short, one of the purposes of the lemon law is to require manufactures to stand by their warranty, and as “punishment” er I mean a proper remedy is to require the manufacture to repair the vehicle, (if the manufacture has not had a reasonable opportunity already) or either give the consumer their money back or give them a properly functioning car.

The BIG issue is whether there is a significant non-conformity that affect the use, value or safety of the vehicle to the consumer. Note I said “there is a non-conformity”, not there was a non-conformity. If their were non-conformities that are now fixed at the time of the hearing, the manufacture has complied with the warranty! This is true if it took them 20 attempts and 90 days out of service before the hearing. No problem = denial.

So perceived rattles, if the arbitrator or judge at trial doesn’t think it’s a significant non-conformity then you loose. So yes, a manufacture commonly argues that the car is operating as intended, (hard to argue if the paint still chipping from the taillights), or my personal favorite that the problem was caused by you.

 

You are absolutely right. The Lundy vs Ford defense is used by the manufacturers to support their claims that the perceived defects are actually normal operating conditions of the vehicle and do not have a substantial affect on the use, value or safety of the vehicle. You may have seen the comment "normal operating condition of the vehicle" typed in on the service paperwork. Acura started doing this on mine when they decided that they weren't going to fix the vibrations/tranny/etc.

sftroy

 

During a BBB arbitration several years ago I had the manufacturer state the same thing about the issues I was having with "their" car at the time... A asked them straight out: if this is such a "normal characteristic/operating condition" of this vehicle, why is it not mentioned in any brochure, manual or window sticker???? The arbitrator agreed...

 

Hey guys so I think that the Forum is getting a little off subject...this was sorta about my particular case...

Anyhow...listen to this...I gave them the car for a bumper repaint, rear deck subwoofer rattle, driver window run channel readustment, and a heat shield squeek Thursday March 16...I was supposed to get the car back yesterday (Friday). He told me the reason why it had taken so long was that they sent the car immediately to the body shop and that when they got it back he saw that there was a glob of paint on it and it had to be repainted...

Anyway he called me yesterday and told me that my car still wasnt ready and that he had an 06 TSX ready for me. I went to pick up the TSX and thought I might have a look at the car just to check out the paint job...

They had done a BAD JOB...alot of the edges had been chipped when putting it back on...I showed the service guy and I said it wasnt that noticable so it was ok...he said: "No they have to get it to me perfect...hold on to the loaner until I fix that up" Anyway...I guess Im going to get the car back around Friday!!!! Thats a whole 16 days...on top of the 28 days that it had alread unavailable.

As everyone has noted, these are not life threatening issues...however when a car is out for 44 days in 11 months...dont you guys think that Acura has given me a POORLY built, bad quality vehicle, that although functions, does not allow the driver to have an enjoyable or yet ACCEPTABLE driving experience.

When Im driving around and cant listen to my music because of a horribel rattle coming from the back, or this once instance where I had a constant clicking noise for 2 weeks and later found out that it was a bad shock, or 2 instances where my car was drifting 2 lanes to the left at 65 mph in the freeway in less than 5 seconds, and the list goes on....

Im just pursuing perfection and I shouldnt be...I dont know...you guys all think i dont have a case huh?

I was thinking hmmm ok so they give me an 06 TL...am I going to have to go through ALL of this stuff all over again? The moonroof is going to start to rattle, the rear deck is also, etc. etc.

Im thinking...hey its been out for 44 days but now I think I've tackled all the issues and HOPEFULLY it will NOT give me any more problems...

What do you guys think????

Pleassse comment I really need feedback! Thanks!

 

The issue at this point is the condition of the car when you get it back. You would have had a better case if you didn't have them take the car back to repaint again. So the fuzzy language "significant non-conformity that affects the use, safety or value of the vehicle to the consumer" controls. If the arbitrator agrees you have a significant non-conformity when you get the car back then you may be awarded the choice of your money back, (repurchase), or a replacement with a new car (a new 05 if any are available or if not an 06). Under the replacement they may even let you get a 06 navi if you pay the difference in the MSRP. Please see my earlier posts re: the use deduction etc.

 

Hmm well if I did get it back without them repainting it again, how can that possibly be Acura corporate's fault? They will just say that it is a body shop quality issue and that it has nothing to do with them...so, I dont know...I guess it shouldnt matter that I am having them make it perfect before getting it back...

Care to explain a little more?

 

If the car is perfect when you get it back then the car is not a lemon. Acura abided by the warranty. Their obligation is the fix the car which they did. No non-conformity = denial decision.

If the car is not fixed, and after 30+ days in the shop your argument is that you have given Acura, (through its authorized service centers the dealership), a reasonable opportunity to repair the vehicle, and they have FAILED TO DO SO. Therefore you deserve your money back or a different car.

I hate to see it when people bring up Acura Lemon problems. I like Acura, (that is why I have one), but every manufacture has some cars, (sometimes called Monday cars since the people building them where hung over from the weekend), that don’t come out quite right. Often Lemons have relatively easy problems to fix and end up lemons because of the stupidity of the dealerships or their mechanics. And you were right, your beef is with Acura, not the dealership, but Acura has to live and die based upon the skill of the dealers mechanics. This includes the bodyshop the dealer outsourced this work to. This is not an enviable position.

 

Good Luck honda is horrible at admitting there is someyhing wrong. they told me to screw off on mine and the Acura dealership actually bought it back from me.

 

Ok guys i finally got my car back! I turned it in on 3/16/06 and got it back on 4/07/06...thats 23 days...and I already had a cumulitive of 30 days in service previous which brings my total to 53 days in exactly 1 year (april 6th is the 1 year anniversary).


Now silly problems or not...they tried to fix the sub rattle and guess what...its almost the same...they havent done jack on my car and they kept it for so long...

So I heard everything you guys had to say...and im thinking about just getting a lemon law lawyer and getting this over with?

Everyone keeps telling me...sometimes some cars just dont come out right...anyway

FEED BACK PLEASE...

53 days with no car is sorta messed up...because my honda accord never even made a hiccup unless it was to change the oil....

 

I think you are a whiner that wants a free upgrade
Just my $.02

 

I think you need to keep your stupid personal comments to yourself...

but then, thats just my opinion.

 

Look, it doesn't matter what everybody else here thinks, we only know what are willing to tell us. If you feel you've got significant issues keeping you from enjoying the car, just get a lemon law lawyer and get it over with.

Then come back and tell us how good the replacement is.

 

Stop asking for feedback if you dont want it=)

 

It seems to me that if you were certain that you had a case, you would have begun the process to Lemon the car a while ago. The fact that you continue go back and forth on this makes me conclude that you know that you are a making a mountain out of a mole hill. It seems that you are looking for thin reasons to lemon the car and get a new one. All cars rattle, all cars have problems. Some people have higher tolerances, yours seem lower than most. I dont know you so i wont say you are unreasonable, but ask yourself what the arbitrator or judge is going to consider a reasonable amount of squeaks and rattles. Chipping paint and misalignment (although you could have caused this yourself, inadvertantely of course) seem like reasonable reasons to take the car in, squeaks and rattles are not in my opinion. I think at some point he service manager is going to tell you there is no more he/she can or is willing to do for your car. Then you will either have to begin the process or live with what you obviously feel is a imperfect car.
just my

 

Interesting...well...just to get things straight here because it seems that you are all turning against me for whatever reason...I just got my car back on Friday....so I had 23 days of NOT having my car to sit around and annoy you all with my complaints...

My arguements for lemoning the car will NOT be that it has rattles, although that is an issue...but it will be that the car that I have gotten has many issues with the paint job quality (in 3 different areas of the car), to loud heat shield squeeks, to a sound system that will NOT allow me to listen to the music I like (house/trance...etc) due to subwoofer rattles, etc.

These ISSUES, have caused my car to be in service for a total of 53 days which is well over the 30 days that the lemon law requires the car to be in service. Due to these factory imperfections I have been UNABLE to enjoy and or use my car which I have purchased for a total of almost 2 out of 12 months...1/6 or a total of 17% of the time that I have had my car....that is a SIGNIFICANT concern...but you people do not rationalize and sympathise with me....

I wont be complaining to the judge that I hear a little rattling noise from the vent while driving please change my car?!?!?!

I am an Electrical Engineer and I don't think that I am in any way unreasonable...quite on the contrary.

And for future reference, next time I ask for "FEEDBACK" I will write "POSTITIVE FEEDBACK ONLY PLEASE"...

Good day to you all...and thank you to those who were kind enough to give me some useful information.

 

I have positive feedback for you. You're wrong.

http://www.carlemon.com/


But, I just saved you a ton of money by not getting a lawyer.

 

I think that your training as an Engineer and your job may make you hyper sensitive to quality. In the real mass produced world, you come across as uptight. Asking for mass produced items to be nearly perfect is unreasonable. We all want and like perfect but just can't afford it. It sounds to me like the car will meet the requirements for a reasonable person. Of course the BBB might agree with you. You are certainly welcome to try whatever you like. If you ever find something that meets your standards, keep it forever.

 

Here's my positive feedback: "I am positive that you're car is not defined as lemon!"

From experience, one can ask for "positive feedback only" on a public forum. But he usually ends up with all negatives.

Good luck with your car. You'll fit right in on this board.

 

Im sure your car was in for so long because they were trying to find all these imaginary rattles and problems you came up with. Paint chips, cars make noise!

Dude, if you want an 06, buy it.

Dont be a weasel.

 

Anyway, you guys are being little kids here...nobody is trying to get a free upgrade or weasel or anything and if XTIN actually read what i had written up there, she would see that the rattles are NOT an issue...but then judging from her picture doesnt look like she is that bright...thats just my $0.02....

Also, lemon or not, the california lemon law states that if the car is in service for 30 calender days for whatever reason...it is considered to be a lemon...that is within 18 months or 18,000 miles.

Finally, to be honest, buying a car with so many features at an amazing price like this had to have a catch...nothing in america is free...an equally equipt lexus is250 would cost more! So I know what the deal is and please stop trying to lecture me...im thinking about the m35...probably will have to cough up another 150$ on the monthly payment, but if thats the cost of perfection, so be it.

Cheers

 

Yeah, Im a real fucking idiot who attends an Ivy League Medical School.

Go cry to someone who cares, bitch.

 

Okay Ive seen enough. Let us know how it turns out Abbass....