Hi guys, I have been fascinated with the 3rd gen TL ever since it came out back in 04. I had decided to buy one in early 06 but after 2 test drives I just didnt like it. Note that my dad had a brand new 03 TL which I really loved driving. I bought a BMW 330xi instead & after using it for 50K miles in almost 3 years, I want a change. I am now again dreaming about getting a TL.

I test drove an 07 TL & 07 TL type S, even this time I just couldn't click with the car. I had an auto BMW & the slightest pressure on the gas pedal resulted in a response with no delay. No my BMW was never a super powered car, with 225 hp it was just enough for me, but whenever I drove the TL, after applying pressure to the gas pedal it takes a while for the engine to realize that I am asking it to move? Once the engine is spinning, it simply blows my BMW out of the water but off idle I absolutely hate it.

Can anyone relate to what I am saying? Or this is a "feature" of the car? Or there tweaks to fix this? Any insight would be greatly appreciated as I really want to buy one. In contrast I drove an RL for comparison & the RL had NO such lag. Had the TL responded that way off idle the way the RL did, I would have bought it a long time ago.

 

Sprinter booster + TL-S = ding ding ding (For you at least)

 

Hit the gas sooner?

 

Umm yeah sure Thanks, I really did not know that you had to hit the gas soon.

On a serious note, what I mean is, after "hitting" the gas, the engine response seems to be delayed. Is this software related or something that I just have to learn to live with?

 

Well, i think it's due to the drive-by-wire set up the TL has. The throttle is electronically controlled as opposed to the cabled throttle body on the Bimmer. I also noticed that when i purchased mine compared to my 2000 accord V6. I didnt really care, the J series motor knows how to handle itself and it will provide enough power when you need it. You'll get used to it.

 

Interesting you mention that, even though the RL has drive by wire as well, I didnt experience this lag. May be its something I will really need to force myself to get used to.

 

get a 6 speed, problems solved.

 

Get a UR pulley. That will help fix it. I did it on mine and it makes a very big difference. Remember to reset your ECM after you install it.

 

That is true. Compared to my 96 Accord (ok, no real comparison there), the lag is not as bad as on a 5AT. Can't really explain it but it is there.

 

I can relate. My '91 Legend has less of a "lag" than my new TL. It bothered me at first but I've gotten used to it. I think you are just so used to the feel of a BMW that any other car will feel weird.

 

The ECU and transmission are adaptive. It sounds like you drove pre-owned TLs ('07 models?) that have adapted to the driving patterns of their owners.

The TL's ECU can be cleared to stock initial configuration by the owner, but will adapt to an owner's driving patterns within a few days.

You can go to a dealership and try out a new '08- the throttle response should be stock.

FWIW, the 2008 335i auto I tested a few months back had the same tip-in as the 2008 TL-S I test drove- both were predictable and acceptably gradual. The 355i clutches and manual shifters did not match the Honda/Acura standard, though.

 

I came from a 2002 BMW 325i to an '08 TL 5AT(Base). I've noticed this too. It takes just a wee bit longer for the TL to move out. I've been somewhat hesistant if I have to move quickly into traffic, or make a left turn across an oncoming lane. I am getting used to it and don't consider it much of a problem, but I have concluded that the BMW was more responsive to a quick start.

However, I'm very happy with the TL. I enjoyed the 325i too. The BMW was more fun to drive, but I like the comforts and quiet of the new TL, plus I'm not worried about unexpected and high repair bills.

I had considered the 2G TL in '02, but I was turned off by the reports of automatic transmission problems which I read about. I always liked the styling of the 3G TL and went for the '08 because of the competitive pricing that was available, and I didn't care for the look of the 2009 TL.

 

This only adds to my theory that it might be the AWD systems. Both your 330XI and the RL are awd. probably a conbination of FWD and Drive-by-wire?

 

+1

 

You get used to the DBW after a while. Plus take any modern BMW engine and it's going to have more off idle torque than any Honda product.

 

going from a 330xi to a tl is a major downgrade in torque and handling, after owning 4 acura myself i might be moving on to a beemer imo i would keep the bmw, but then again you do have 50k on it lol.

 

Both BMW and Acura/Honda product can be changed with after-market products or even OEM products. You will lose and gain advantages by buying a BMW and same as the Acura. I had a choice to buy a 328i coupe or a Acura TL 06' I ended up choosing the Acura TL. Why?

Better market value.
Better resale value.
Last longer with less maintenance.
Honda Product
Fast and a nice-looking inexpensive 4-dr Sedan
Easy-to-mod

Yes the bimmer is very good once bought new. Resale value is low. Higher maintenance and will never last longer than any Honda. To me its either Lexus or Acura for both cost effectiveness, luxury, longetivity, appearance, and speed.

 

I don't think the OP is experiencing anything to do with the DBW system. The 3rd gen has a quicker throttle response than the 2nd gens. I've driven both enough to feel and notice the difference. Do you remember the response from your Dad's 03 TL?
That sounds to me like you've just discovered VTEC... Low end power is just enough to get the car moving, but nothing special. High end, once you cross over into VTEC, and you're thrown into the back of your seat (briefly).

An auto BMW... that kind of stinks. Manual 5spd swap is not that involved and it's been done plenty of times.
I don't know that I'd go from any new(ish) BMW to a base TL, even a Type S. There's so much more out there for the 3series. Enough to make it look better than a TL and perform better. .02

 

Acceleration off idle for auto tranny's is determined by the torque converter, tranny and ECU's in modern cars. Different applications have different characteristics.

Your 330xi's engine was probably tuned for a fair amount of low end torque and the TC/transmission was probably configured to directly apply that torque at low RPM's to all 4 wheels. This is like my 4WD Pathfinder where I tend to surge ahead at lights until I remember I'm not driving the TL.

The TL's engine is tuned for mid-high end torque and its torque converter's stall speed is around 2500 RPM. What this means is that off idle to 2500, you don't go anywhere fast. With the TL, you gotta give it a nice throttle tap off idle to jump the RPM's near the stall speed. When you do this, your TC is acting like a variable ratio gear and will smoothly speed up your car from 0 to the 2500 RPM 1st gear speed.

When I switch from the Pathfinder to the TL, I tend to creep off idle until I remember to start tapping again. And this is probably what you are experiencing.

As an aside, V-TECH rules so skip all this low RPM stuff

 

AWD, RWD, FWD is irrelevent here.

Is the OP talking about throttle response from the time he hits the gas to the time the engine responds?

Is he talking about the lack of low end torque inherent in all Honda motors?

There is a lack of response from the time you hit the gas to the time the engine responds. I can hit my gas and even after I hear the throttle open up, there's still some delay before the engine responds. Since my TL is to get me from point A to point B it doesn't bother me and I don't even notice it anymore.

Lack of low end torque is just a characteristic of the car. The torque convertor has a decent stall speed to help out and the trans downshifts with minimal throttle input. Still, the TL will never accelerate as effortlessly as a Bimmer even if it does make more power up top.

 

For IHC's reference:
Not so, no, no, nope.

A torque converter can "multiply" torque like a low ratio gear and this is very beneficial to AWD, RWD cars. As noted, the OP didn't notice any lag with the RL, which has the SH-AWD.

But with the TL-S, the FWD can't supply the traction to use the extra torque so I'm suspecting the TL-S's TC has less multiplication as well as a higher stall speed than the RL. I can easily spin the tires off a stop with my stock 08TL-S so any more low end torque would be useless.

I believe the OP's 330xi has 225hp@5,900rpm, 200lb-ft@3,500rpm. The 07-08TL-S has 286ph@6200, 255lb-ft@5000 but more importantly for acceleration, the TL-S is already producing the bimmer's max 200lb-ft torque at ~1300rpm.

So much for the lack of low end torque in a TL-S... but the base 07-80 TL needs to rev to 2000rpm to produce 200lb-ft torque and I'll grant IHC may have a case there since I noticed it during my test drives. That, plus the fact that my wife's friend's mother (a grandmother) drives a TL, made me choose the TL-S... no offense to TL drivers here

 

You're assuming the AWD cars use a higher stall convertor but you don't know if this is true or not. Regardless, a high stall doesn't increase throttle lag at all and in fact makes the car feel more responsive. I'm well aware of torque multiplication and high stall convertors as I have been though 5 in the past 10 years and am currently running a 3,200 non lock 10" convertor. I've run as high as a 3,900 stall and the car was exceptionally responsive. The car doesn't just stand there stationary until you hit the stall rpm. Even with a 3,200 it will accelerate at 1,200rpm.

255lbs is a lack of torque period. How do you figure it makes 200lbs at 1,300 rpm? It would most likely be in the neighborhood of 100lbs or so at that rpm but no one dynos a car from that low of an rpm nor can they in an auto so we don't know. All it takes is a drive in any BMW currently made to figure out it they make more off idle torque than a TL or TL-S.

 

The only thing I'm assuming is that the AWD cars have appropriately matched torque converters. Stall speed isn't the only factor; the rate at which the fluid coupling occurs is another. But the end result at the wheels would be better low end torque.

Ya know that BMW's E46 M3 only produced 262lb-ft@4900?

I got that from the TL's brochure, but you're 100lb-ft figure is probably right for at the wheel of an AT TL because the TC is really slipping at such low rpm's.

I think the TL-S' TC starts getting decent coupling around 1700 rpm while the base TL would be a bit higher. So like I mentioned earlier, give the throttle a quick tap to rev it up there and you'll go fast enough. Just pretend you're crushing that annoying yuppie cock-a-roach driving the baby bimmer next to you

 

I need to learn how to do that multi-quote thingy.

Points well taken.

It would make sense to do as you say and run a higher stall in the AWD cars to take advantage of the extra traction. I'm just not sure if Honda does so since they seem to market the AWD as a handling aid and not a drag strip terror. Hopefully you are right.

Yeah, the BMW in question is a bit anemic but it does make the peak torque at a lower rpm which I ASSume would translate into better torque off idle too. I'm used to a bit more coming from mostly American cars. Effortless acceleration but you don't get that rush at higher rpms.

 

I noticed everyone gave their opinion on this subject, but no solution to the problem. Just curious if there is even a way to correct this 'throttle lag' issue. Im in the market for an 07' TL-S, and i test drove a A/T one a few weeks ago(they didnt have any in stick) and i did notice a lag. And i was surprised cuz it was something that i dont really notice in my CL-S, i mean i do have a very slight low-end lag, but nothing compared to when i test drove the TL-S

 

Guys, thanks for the tonnes of feedback, I think I have figured out the problem, as mentioned by Will Y.

First, let me explain my "lag". By lag I DO NOT mean lack of torque or power, I mean the absence of response. Its almost like there is fixed amount of time the ECU "waits" after I depress the accelerator pedal till it actually starts to spin the engine.

Anyway heres how I believe its solved, I went to test drive a pre-owned 05 last sat & the car has been sitting on the dealers lot for a few months & the battery died. The salesman jump starts the car & we go for a test drive. I noticed immediately that there is NO lag. Sure it didnt have the off idle grunt as my BMW but at least there was no lag & the engine responded when you asked it to.

WOW it took 5 TLs over 3 years to make me actually like it! Now if only the dealer would give me a good price for my BMW.

 

So resetting the ECU and letting it learn your "drive style" got rid of the lag for you?

 

when does this ECU "learning" occur? within the first X amount of miles? I got my TL with 35 miles on it. One thing I'm starting to notice is that if I press firmly on the gas, there pretty much is no lag. Or maybe to get rid of this lag you just have to grow a pair...

 

I haven't noticed much of a "delay" with my '06 TL- but I have noticed that if you really stomp on the accellerator- it wants to pull the the left, or right- it just tries to get away from you.

Any thoughts?

Maybe I just need an alignment or something?

I bought it Pre-Owned Certified a month ago- so that shouldn't be the issue.

Go Noles.

UNCONQUERED.

 

chuanger & Chairguru22: Yes, resetting the ECU seems to make it really responsive & enjoyable. I believe it wouldn't need to too many miles to "learn". I really dont know how many miles it would need, would know if I buy the car any time soon.

UNCONQUERED: The left or the right pull is called "torque steer". It is because the TL is a FWD with plenty of power. Torque steer is non existant in RWD or AWD cars.

 

Thanks arshishb!

I knew there was a logical explanation- but I don't know squat about the inner workings of an automobile- I looked under the hood of my TL once- but I might as well be looking at the human brain.

Thanks again.

 

I think it takes a little time to get used to any DBW system. I just picked up a 6MT 06 and it responds fine. I came from an 05 FX35, and the throttle response seems identical. IMO, the TL (esp with a 6MT) is a better car than a 330ix. (assuming you don't need AWD

 

Glad you got it solved! I like to reset mine every couple months. I drive very easy and the shifts seem to get lazy due to my driving style. Resetting it brings back the crisp shifts.

You're doing the opposite of what I was doing. BMW offered me a new 335 for 42,000 out the door.

 

Hey guys. thanks for all the feedback on this. Great thread. Anyways, I have an 06 TL and I noticed the 'delay' he was talking about at when I first bought it. I think it is just a matter of getting used to the gas pedal and the feel of the pressure you put on it. If I stomp on it... it moves! If I give it just some medium pressure.. it seems to delay a bit.. its all good. Still the best car I have ever bought to date!

 

Just a curiosity for the OP. Did you try the "manual" mode of the auto trans? I find the TL is more fun to drive when I control the rpm's, especially off the line.
I also had a hard time moving from RWD (G35) to the TL. My old car would jump across the street with the slightest pedal pressure. Now I have to really press on the pedal & there is a slight delay. Good news is I eventually got used to it & don't notice anymore.

 

Does the ECU update continually? Sounds like it set itself pretty early and stays there. I bought my 2007 TL-S used (~3K miles). Will it be more awesome if I have the ECU reset?

 

It seems obvious > Buy the RL

 

Turn off the VSA.

I just turn off the VSA when it is not raining. You can feel the power right away, instead of waiting for that half a second to feel the car is going.

 

one time i took my car to the dealer and they gave me an 07 automatic as a loaner. completely different car than my 06 manual, imo.

on a side note, i have also had an 02 type s and loved that car, until a drunk totaled it. i wish they would have offered the 02-03 type s with a four door 6 speed.

 

I installed a voltage regulator/grounding wire kit and imo it seemed to improve my throttle response.