6spMike

OK, I apologize to the other 6mt owners that have had their clutches go out with only a few miles.
It's so unheard-of for a clutch to go out at less than 20K that I assumed you guys (and gals) were working them hard, or not following SouthernBoy's posts, etc.

But now I'm in your shoes: Mine's at the dealer with a blown clutch. I baby it, it's never been launched above 1500 RPM, I don't rest my foot on the pedal, etc. I've had manual cars for 25 years (crap, I'm a geezer) and never had to replace a clutch. The last one i had, a 93 Mazda MX3, had 150k on it when I sold it and was still fine.

Can I humbly ask for some help for us to collectively figure out what the problem might be? If those that have a 6mt could answer these questions, it might help:

Has yours failed? How many miles on it either way?

Do you launch it hard regularly, like 2000-3000 rpm? (maybe this beds the clutch and they last longer?)

Or do you baby it, clutch always out before 1000 rpm, not slip it too much, etc.?

If it failed, how many miles when it failed?

Did it fail 'loose', meaning you could rev the engine with it in gear and your foot off the pedal and go nowhere, or 'tight', meaning it wouldn't go into gear with the pedal all the way depressed?

Was this your first MT car? (or how many of Southernboy's suggestions do you follow? Or do you, be honest, think your driving style might have contributed?) - I'm not trying to knock anyone here, just trying to get data.

Did it fail more than once?

When it got fixed, what did they say was wrong with it? Was it under warranty?

Thanks for all of your help!!!
Mike

mn2trance

I'm at 38K+ miles and my clutch still feels strong. I've launched it hard more times than I would like and it's still holding its own. Like you, I don't rest my foot on the clutch either while I'm idle. When I'm downshifting, I follow Southernboy's suggestion of double clutching and hope to have this clutch last longer than the first MT car I had.

TL-Rocket

I've got an '04 6MT with 53K miles and the clutch is fine. However, I do tend to baby it and I drive mostly highway miles. This clutch does have the weirdest feel of any clutch I've ever driven.

When you say your clutch is blown what do you mean? Is it slipping badly? Did the pressure plate self-destruct?

TL-Rocket

mlody

My car is also 06 with only 7000 miles so far. A month ago or so, I experienced something really wired. I was racing few guys from the red lights like 3 times (up to ~ 40mph) and was able to pull each time without any problems. On my 4th attempt, I turned off the VSA and tried to launch the car from about 5000rpm, but it would not move after releasing the clutch – without even realizing, I bounced of the rev limiter. Luckily no body was behind me, so I slowly turned the VSA on and this time drove off slowly. I remember the first few hundred miles, I had a hard time driving smoothly cause the clutch would grab unexpectedly.
After this incident, I am really afraid to turn off the VSA and try to launch the car from anything past 3000-3500rpm. Has anyone experienced this? I just hope that my clutch is not in its way to the graveyard. BTW I have been driving manual cars for about 15 years and never experienced such situation.

6spMike

Mine failed 'tight'; the dealer said it's abusive wear, which I'm having real trouble with. They haven't said that they found something defective.
One more question: For those that have had the clutch fail, do (did) you also have the 3rd gear issue? For the folks that haven't had it fail, do you have the third gear issue?
Thanks!!!
Mike

johnny--2k

05 with about 38K miles, clutch seems to be holding fine and I drive my cars pretty hard. I did launch a few times, and twice I actually toasted the clutch, but I believe there is a safety for that because it seems fine right after doing it, kind of like a fail safe that will not let the clutch engage with a lot of slipping....kinda hard to explain.

johnny--2k

This is exactly what happened to me too, I dont think you actually cause any harm by this, I think the car actually disengages the clutch completely so as not to cause any damage.....


Oh yeah, I did have the third gear issue as well, dealership replaced with GM Synchromesh Fluid under warranty and it has been great ever since!!!

mn2trance

I, too, have the 3rd gear issue, but the MTF hasn't been changed out. I keep forgetting to call the GM dealerships to see if they have the fluids in stock.

Bullpup

Mine has the 3rd gear issue as well. I mentioned it to my service manager and he said he has never heard of such a thing, especially on the 07's. He claims transmission troubles were a thing of the past, 2nd gen TLs. I call BS, but what do I say to him to get him to be aware of the problem? has anyone found a good way of reproducing the problem on demand?

geekybiker

Personally I think the stupid check valve on the clutch has alot to do with premature wear.

Adobeman

I'm thinking the same thing but I'm not convinced removing it wouldn't cause other problems from the increase in how fast torque gets applied. Overall I have trained myself to slow down my shifting so as not to spin things.

How exactly do they explain what 'tight' means ? Usually it's wear (slip) or hydraulics (won't disengage). I guess I'd call the "won't disengage" "tight".

Your description was that it won't disengage and that it isn't hydraulics. Sure there are other things that can go wrong but if they are saying you abused it and it isn't slip/wear then just what do they think you did to abuse it ? I mean lets go with the odds here... usually abuse leads to wear which leads to slip. If it isn't that then what exactly does the dealer claim ?

6spMike

That's a good question I haven't really pressed on, but I think I know what their answer will be: On some hydraliuc systems, when the disc get thin enough, the travel of the slave cylinder is no longer long enough to disengage the clutch. One would assume, then, that all cars of the same year and model would fail in the same way. But, some here failed 'tight' and some failed 'loose'.

Mine would generally reproduce it if you coast at about 20 mph, then hold the clutch to the floor and move back and forth from neutral to 3rd. I told this to the dealer, and they said the couldn't reproduce it; but they put the new Acura fluid in anyway. I'm starting to thing the 3rd gear issue and the premature clutch wearout are related...

mlody

BTW - mine car also has 3 gear issue and Acura replaced it with the improved fluid - at least that is something on my record if i need to fight them in the future.

6spMike

I hope this works, my first time posting pics.
The dealer sent me some pics of my clutch to show me how bad it was.
What is you folks' opinion?
Thanks!!!
[IMG]466619263_a234356560_s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]466619261_ac508aae15_s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]466619257_b875b99a3a_s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]466619255_79a0e3a53c_s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]466619253_d54ef6032d_s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]466610156_aedf17bd8b_s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]466610154_ec041f71f3_s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]466610152_748f724941_s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]466610150_a7bd5bb67a_s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]466610146_a7bd5bb67a_s.jpg[/IMG]

6spMike

As we now know, it didn't.
Let's try this:




















Whoppee!! Success!!!
What do you think? Bad or not?
Thanks!!!

binTL

None of the pics show up.

TL-Rocket

The clutch and pressure plate surfaces do look scored - but the whole situation doesn't add up. Did you measure the clutch thickness? Maybe your launches were a little more spirited than you're letting on....

BTW, it seems that Acura is pretty generous with the amount of clutch surface area.

Just my 2 cents,
TL-Rocket

6spMike

I think you might be putting a lot of unnecessary wear on the clutch.
There is no mechanism to disengage the clutch except by pushing down on the clutch pedal. My guess would be the clutch isn't designed to hold against that high of a difference in RPM between the flywheel and the transmission input shaft.
When the clutch slips a lot with the foot off the pedal (like in a case like this) it will get hot quickly and have even less holding power. If this happened you'd probably get a smell like hot brakes. If you got the smell, you also got a lot of wear.

Mike

6spMike

Thanks.
I used the term 'launch' in the first post, and I probably shouldn't have. I really do baby it, the clutch is always out (foot off) before I press the gas more than 1/4 inch. Only after that do I get on the gas. Even then, it's only seen upwards of 5000 rpm maybe a dozen times. Honest.

What do you mean by 'generous with the surface area'? Do you mean that the clutch is a comparatively large diameter for other cars with similar horsepower?

I noticed the clutch disc appears to have a lot of wear left before it gets to the rivets. I haven't measured it, the car is in Phoenix, and I'm in Tucson. The dealer said (I think, I didn't write the numbers down) that a new disc was .350 and the one they took out of the car was .330. They didn't say how far was left to the rivets, which I would consider to be the remaining serviceable lining thickness.

A little help here for me, please - shouldn't a clutch have wear marks like a brake disc? If not, why not? They perform essentially the same function.

Back in the day, I used to help my dad, he did work on cars on the side. All the clutches I've seen were worn like brake discs. Of course, all of those were truly worn out, so they had been slipping a lot.

So if I abused it, that means I slipped it too much, right? Shouldn't it be polished/ scored all over? I don't see that.

I can't explain the black dots. Can anyone?

Sorry for the longwinded post. It's been a week and I'm still :angryfire
Mike

johnny--2k

Thats just the thing though, I've smelled burnt clutch, almost like dead fish, no smell out of my TL though, Thats the first thing I checked for.....

johnny--2k

All those black marks on the surface appear to be hot-spots......not good to have a lot of the m like that.....

fsttyms1

Its kinda hard to tell by the pics, but the friction pad doesnt look like its worn bad, but the flywheel and pressure plate look like they are scorched in spots.

Did you ever notice any slipping at all while driving?

As for it not having wear marks like a brake, No not really. While similar the clutch is always holding the plate except for when you push in and let out the clutch. There is less friction between the surfaces than a brake pad and rotor (brake pads are a different material and is harsher on the rotor) If the clutch is really worn or done lots of slipping you may get those type of marks.

I cant really explain the look of those surfaces. I havent seen one like that before. Is there any grease or oil/fluid splattered in the bellhousing?

6spMike

Thanks Fsttyms1.

That's the really weird thing. It never slipped, ever. When it failed, the clutch wouldn't disengage, and I couldn't get in any gear without turning off the engine. But, the pedal still felt like it was operating the pressure plate. It didn't feel any different than it did before, just couldn't get it in gear. It was normal, starting to catch at about 1/2 pedal travel, then all of a sudden I couldn't get in gear.
It was towed to the dealer, then the dealer said it was slipping when they pulled it into the stall.

I will ask about oil/grease, they haven't mentioned it.

When you say scorched, are you referring to the 'smearing' marks close to the inside diameter of the pressure plate and flywheel? I was expecting the whole disc to have that appearance, because of the friction between the disc and metal surfaces.

Thanks Again!
Mike

SouthernBoy

Both the flywheel and the pressure plate seem to have some uneven wear patterns on the inward side. I suspect the spots are hot spots. The clutch disk does have quite a bit of material left on it.

My guess is what geekybiker mentioned.. the check valve. If this is not allowing full or sufficient engagement, then you are not getting enough clamping pressure to overcome engine (multiplied by trans gears) torque. And 20,000 miles if FAR to little for a normally used clutch to expire, even for those who do not practice proper techniques. I would wager there is a design/mechanical problem responsible for this.

6spMike

Wouldn't it slip if the check valve was faulty?
I think there is some sort of design/mechanical problem too.
Thanks Southernboy!
Mike

SouthernBoy

Historically, clutch slip (as in abnormal) has usually been the result of a worn clutch disk. Scoring of the pressure plate and flywheel surfaces can also contribute to this. And then there is improper adjustment where the clutch begins engagement too far up in the travel, therefore never allowing full pressure to be applied.. this is also very bad on the release bearing.

If the check valve is the problem, and by this I mean serving as an impediment to full and timely engagement, then premature wear can result (I should think). Your pictures do seem to indicate abnormal wear patterns and perhaps heat damage. But I suspect there is more to it than this. I would imagine there is something here that is not allowing full engagement of your clutch.

Here's a simple test (too late for your situation, I know). Locate the release fork and with the engine off, and of course the clutch fully engaged, see if it has any "play" or if it is tight against the shaft that contacts is. There should be a slight amount of play, not tight and unmoving.

Wid-TL

This happened to me with too! With only 5k miles. Now I have over 30k with no problems.

I believe I recall Southernboy mentioning something WAY BACK about a hydraulic bleed-off valve or something to that effect that dumps the fluid to avoid clutch damage.

triggle

"When it failed, the clutch wouldn't disengage" So you are not slipping but you can't change gears using the clutch ? So is this because the disc is warped, stuck on the splines or welded to the flywheel ?

6spMike

Yes, that is true. The dealer hasn't said what the problem was, except that it was 'burned up'.

Tripnbeats

I beat the shit out of mine and Im at 60K I just hope now that I opened my mouth it doesnt break on me..... the Acura tech said I have about 80% life on it.... I have no idea how he determined that....... but the car was at acura for almost 2 weeks getting the tune up of its life.

Legend2TL

No, 25K
[/QUOTE]

Do you launch it hard regularly, like 2000-3000 rpm? (maybe this beds the clutch and they last longer?)[/QUOTE]
No
[/QUOTE]
Or do you baby it, clutch always out before 1000 rpm, not slip it too much, etc.?[/QUOTE]
I let it out with revs between 1-1.5K

[/QUOTE]
If it failed, how many miles when it failed?

Did it fail 'loose', meaning you could rev the engine with it in gear and your foot off the pedal and go nowhere, or 'tight', meaning it wouldn't go into gear with the pedal all the way depressed?

Was this your first MT car? (or how many of Southernboy's suggestions do you follow? Or do you, be honest, think your driving style might have contributed?) - I'm not trying to knock anyone here, just trying to get data.[/QUOTE]

No I've been driving MT cars for almost 3 decades.
[/QUOTE]
Did it fail more than once?[/QUOTE]
Mine still "feels" good.

[/QUOTE]
When it got fixed, what did they say was wrong with it? Was it under warranty?

Thanks for all of your help!!!
Mike[/QUOTE]

6spMike

I got the car back today.
They replaced:
22100-RCA-006 Flywheel
22105-PGE-315 Clutch Set
22810-PPT-003 Bearing
08798-9031A Fluid, MT.
They had to realign it, too, since the subframe had to come out. In fact, the wheel is not quite centered now, which I need to get the local dealer to fix. I had Leesa give me a note saying it left their shop that way.

I got a closer look at the parts, too; the flywheel, disc, and pressure plate all had indications of heat, but only on the inside diameter of the friction surfaces. You can't really see that in the pics.
They said the only abnormality they could find was that the distance between the pressure plate fingers and the pressure plate friction surface was smaller than spec. Their theory was the heat weakened the springs, causing them not to return as far.
This pressure plate uses a Bellville (conical) spring, different than the coil springs I had always seen used in pressure plates before.
John said the clutch dampening device is incorporated into the pressure plate. There are a lot of other springs and linkages on the other side of the pressure plate that the pics don't show.
With the new parts, the clutch pedal takes less effort to depress (much less than you'd expect to need for 258 hp), and the clutch starts to grab closer to the top of the pedal travel. Also, the travel between starting to grab and fully grabbed is much smaller.
It feels more like other clutches I had driven before, except with much less pedal effort.
When this car was brand new (6 miles) the clutch started to grab just off the floor, and wasn't fully grabbed for 2-3 inches of pedal travel. It got better, but the pedal was always pretty low when it started to grab. With the new parts, it starts to grab at about 1/2 travel, and is fully grabbed in another inch or so.
So I'm hoping the root cause is fixed, even if exactly what it was still isn't clear.

Ok, so what did it cost, you ask?
They did it under warranty.
Corporate denied warranty when the service folks sent them the pics, but I very calmly and politely (calm and polite was REALLY hard) told them my experience level with clutch cars, and the 3rd gear issue history. Then Leesa talked with John (his card says 'fixed operations director'?) and he agreed that something very strange is going on. He made the call to cover it under warranty, and is working with Acura engineering to determine what the defect is. He went against corporate on my behalf, wow.

I have to give Acura corporate a 'thumbs down' for not asking more questions when a car with 18k miles has a clutch failure, and instantly blaming the customer. They could look for patterns of possible abuse, such as tire wear, engine history codes, oil change intervals from the MID, aftermarket performance parts, etc. They could also look more closely at the failed parts; there IS something wrong in the design/manufacture.

On the other hand, I have to give the dealer a for listening to me and going to bat for me. In a perfect world, I shouldn't have had to work as hard to convince them there was something wrong, but the world isn't perfect.

The folks I have dealt with are:
Acura of Peoria (Phoenix area)
Leesa Schaeffer - Service manager; Almost all of my contact was through her, she was great.
John Labedz - Fixed Operations Director; he's pushing Acura to find a root cause.

Sorry for the long winded post...
Mike

mlody

That's really great expirience! I am glad everything worked out good for you. I agree - no one should be paying Acura to fix clutch on a car with <20K unless it was abused.

Tripnbeats

wow bro good for u at least now we all know what to say or do if it was needed, do you have any specific number(s) we should call for corporate? In case one of us gets the urge to politely call them?

6spMike

Corporate didn't approve it to be covered under warranty.
The dealership is taking a risk that there is a defect in the parts they are sending back to be analyzed/examined.

I talked with corporate when they called to ask about the level of service I recieved for an oil change three days before it died. They never called me back, probably because they already made the decision to not cover it.

Moral of the story: be nice to your dealer.
Mike

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

In all fairness, the pressure plate and flywheel look completely horrendous. I would not cover that either.

Also people recall that these are self-adjusting pressure plates. They are designed to keep the same pedal height all the time no mater the wear on the disc. It is completely feasible that the disc was worn and the pressure plate was no longer able to disengage the clutch when the pedal was depressed.


On another note we have a complete clutch and flywheel upgrade available. We need 5 buyers to get them made. Search here and the CL forums for details.

6spMike

So why would it look horrendous if it wasn't abused (and it wasn't)?

So why did it fail by not being able to disengage with the clutch all the way to the floor, and with plenty of clutch thickness left? The disc picture shows there is plenty of material before you get to the rivets. Can you explain how the pp self-adjusts?

How do you know yours won't have the same problems? Is your design different from stock? If so, what's different, and why did you make it different? Get technical, please.

I'm still trying to understand the failure, so any insights would be appreciated.
Thanks!!
Mike

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

I am not one to judge. I don't even know you. But that clutch got overheated somehow. Abuse does not need to be intentional...maybe you just need to refine your diving style.

I can't explain how the PP self adjusts because I don't know that much about it mechanically. And what may seem like plenty of material may indeed not be enough. Or maybe heat has affected the material in a way that reduces it's friction coefficient. Maybe the PP/flywheel faces are worn as well.

There could be a few explanations here. But 2 things are for certain. 1- Your clutch stopped working. 2- When they took it out it appears overworked, due to any number of reasons.

Did they inspect the hydraulic system at all? How does the pedal feel?

Marcus

6spMike

That sounds like judging.

My last car, a '93 Mazda MX-3, had 140k on the clutch when I sold it, and it was still fine. I think we can rule out my driving style.

I agree it looks overheated. I don't understand how. It never slipped or smelled hot. They did inspect the hydraulic system. It was fine. It never felt like there was a problem with the hydraulics. It's interesting that the clutch has an entirely different feel now than it did before; read the previous posts.

It doesn't make sense. Let's assume for a moment I did slip it too much and caused it to overheat. Then, why would it fail the way it did (pedal to the floor, can't get it in gear)? Note it wasn't locked up, it just wouldn't disengage enough to get into gear. If I slipped it too much, I would expect to wear all the friction surface off and have it fail by not engaging, but that's not what happened. The dealer said the new disc was .350, and the one they took out was .330. So the disc is used up with .020 of wear? That makes no sense either.

So your proposed new plate doesn't have the self-adjust feature? what does the adjusting, then?

Where did you get the information that the pressure plate was self-adjusting? I'd like to understand it so I can see if failure of that system caused this problem.

Tell us about your design... If this happens again, I would be interested if I felt comfortable that your design might address the problem.

Thanks!

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I read about your experience with MT cars. That makes it more baffling really.

If more people were having similar failures I could blame the car for some reason. But without that I am not sure what to say. Obviously it happened from some cause. It is unfortunate that more investigation wasn't able to be done. As you know the dealer gets complaints like this frequently, and your defenses are not unheard of either.

The new pressure plate is self-adjusting as well. In a non-self adjusting clutch there is no adjusting feature in the system. A worn clutch is indicated by a high pedal engagement.

The information about the PP being self adjusting came from my clutch manufacturer who designed the new system.

Check it out:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186291

Marcus