why1504

OK, I have had several HP autos and have driven all of those haven't owned except for a Lamob, and a McLaren F-1. Well I must say, as my TL-S approaches it's break in mileage I took it out for a bit of spirited driving. We still haven't hit 600 miles but are at 450 and now are hitting 5,5K RPMs occasionally. Well I must state for the money this car rocks. I took a corner that I thought I was apexing at 60 at 75 and it took it without even any rebuff. I was shocked at mid curve when I saw my speed with the stock tires. I would not have believed the TL-S was able to handle this. Once this car is properly broken in I will give a proper review. I am impressed.

Bearcat94

Yeah, I agree. And I've driven every under $25,000 peice of crap there is. Between us, we've pretty much got it covered.

sT04Louis

iTrader: (5)

Throw a decent wheel and tire combo, and possibly TeinSS w/edfc and experence a totally different car.
Its awesome diving into a corner and have little to no body roll at speed.
Then feeling the car load up and rocket out of the corner with an awesome second gear pull.

Aznpersuasion

^^ Yup haha
~Jason

why1504

I would add that I am also impressed with the automatic transmission. It only shifted up once in a corner during my ride. I have no doubt this car is a real beast with the manual.

Bearcat94

Not sure about your model/year, but in the '07 TL-S, the Auto is Smart. It knows when you are in a corner and will not change gears while you're cornering.

This is very thoughtful of Acura and assists with stability during "spirited" driving.

carguyrob

The 6-spd TL-S is a beast. It has enough power to easily spin the tires in the first-second shift and if you do it right, in the second-third shift. I was giving a co-worker with a late model M3 6-spd a test drive and he was pretty impressed. He pointed out that getting a second-third tire spin is pretty rare in his M3.

Bearcat94

A bit off topic, but this has bugged me since having the '07 TL-S AT.

In our '02 TL-S AT the tires would "chirp" between the 1st to 2nd shift (WOT).

However in the '07 they don't (or I haven't got them to yet). Why is that?

camporealer

Did you disable the VSA (Also known as the "NO Fun Button"?

S PAW 1

The '07 TL 6MT has "torque limiting" in 1st and 2nd gear programmed into the ECU to reduce torque steer. As your steering angle increases, so does the torque reduction. This is bound to have an effect on your tire shredding escapades I know, we've all done it.
Back on topic:
It is amazing to me that at low speeds, the handling abilities of this machine are not apparent. When I first drove my '07 TL-S, I thought to myself that it could not possibly match the handling of my previous '05 6MT with A-Spec. Boy, was I surprised! Road & Track measured its lateral acceleration at .91!!
That is better than the most of the bimmers they've tested.
HOLY COW...I CAN SEE THE FLAMES COMIN' NOW! (sunglasses)

why1504

I have a Black 05 TL and an KBP 07 TL-S. The 05 I never got to drive much, it was the wife's car and I think she new better than to let me behind the wheel of that car. The 05 now belongs to my 19 year old son.He was with me yesterday. He became very envious at the performance differences. I got him a Valentine One for his birthday, I figure it will save me money.

joerockt

Hey guys, what is the stock rubber on a TL-S? I understand some come with summer tires. Anyone know what model tires they are?

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

the crappy kind


I preffer pirelli's pzero nero


------
As for the AT on turns, my first corner taken when I bought the TL, coming from a 350z, I swear I understeered so much I almost cried... For torque-injected fwd car the TL-S loves cornering, but then it also loves going straight too... VSA off I can chirp till 3rd, but chirp only means loss of traction, so I preffer picking up speed quicker than chirping like I do in my non-lsd gsr...

joerockt

Super I'm assuming its the Pilots, right?

junktionfet

Mine came with the "summer tires". I don't know the difference in the VIN or anything, but the tires are Bridgestone Potenza RE030s. They aren't the best performance tire in the world but they aren't too bad either. They make a bit more rolling noise than the "standard" Michelins, and they have a low treadwear rating.

When these wear out, I'll opt for a high end performance Michelin tire.

S PAW 1

Mine came with Michelin Pilot HX MXM4's (which are all season)
Got 'em for sale in the Private Sales thread if you are interested
Brand new $650

joerockt

You couldnt pay me to take those POS from you...

jtkoo7

It's really hard to make them chirp and it's impossible to do a burn out unless you put on crappy tires and/or snow tires .... at least in an auto. It's like this with or without vsa on. Darn acura ruining all our fun Wonder what it would be like if you could take off that torque limiting stuff off

harddrivin1le

I'd describe the handling as "quite good - for a, 3,650 pounds, front wheel drive car."

It's not in the same league as my '99 LS1, 1LE Z28, nor did I expect that it would be.

I've had my TL-S automatic 2 weeks today. I have no reason to lie.

On the other hand, the TL-S is much nicer, far more comfortable car of superior quality. It's more of a "grand touring" car than a hard car performance car which, by definition, is rear wheel drive.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Not trying to flame you, but you really think that your live axle camaro with technology that hasn't changed since, what, 1984, is better than the TLs handling? I have to disagree. There was slightly any difference between the LT1 and LS1 F-bodys handling wise, and my 05 TL 6MT with all seasons can run circles around my LT1, and it even had better tires (SP8000s, old, but a great tire). Even with Konis and Eibachs the TL would handle better, not to mention ride better. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

bruce.augenstein@comcast.

On topic, the '07 TL-S is a very good handling car for its weight, up to between seven and eight tenths. After that, you're going to just flat understeer. My 6-speed with the 030 Bridgestones is surprisingly good on the street, but on track, you have to do the normal unnatural acts common to almost any FWD car in order to make it get around a road course with decent lap times - and you shouldn't be doing any of that stuff on the street. You could get seriously killed, or get somebody else killed.

It's a good handling car - not a great handling car.

On topic with screaminz28's note quoted above:

I don't think you realize just how quick the LS1 Camaros actually are on track. They've owned SCCA racing in their classes for years, against such cars as the S2000. This is showroom stock, by the way, where all you can do is pull the cat(s) and add track sneakers and pads. They are extremely good in the twisty bits, obviously terrific on the straights, and very, very good under braking. As I said, they've dominated their classes.

Bruce

junktionfet

My TL-S with "summer tires" has considerably better traction and lateral grip than my TSX with the MXM4s. I realize this is probably not news to anyone, but I figured I'd throw it in here anyway.

S PAW 1

[QUOTE=harddrivin1le]I'd describe the handling as "quite good - for a, 3,650 pounds, front wheel drive car."

It's not in the same league as my '99 LS1, 1LE Z28, nor did I expect that it would be.

You've GOT to be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!
Staight line, yes......curves, no friggin' way. My bro had a Z, and you had better know your direction before pushing the gas.
Now, if your talking modified, that's a different story.

bruce.augenstein@comcast.

[QUOTE=S PAW 1]On track, an LS1 Camaro (particularly the 1LE-equipped version) will be faster than a stock 030-equipped '07 TL-S everywhere. Twisties, straights, under braking - everywhere.

On the street, the TL-s might be a tad quicker on a twisty back road that needs maintenance, principally because the Camaro will deliver more wheel and axle hop while cornering over bumps.

Bruce

harddrivin1le

It's not even close.

And you owned/drove a Gen IV 1LE ONCE you'd realize that.

The TL is a nose heavy car that feels much heavier than the 1LE. Lift throttle oversteer and power on oversteer don't work with the TL.

"Live axles" can be made to work quite well (e.g. panhard rod, trailing links, coil springs, an anti-roll bar and Koki Yellows). Their only pitfull is on rough pavement.

I tend not to drive overly fast in ANY car on rough pavement.

harddrivin1le

Thank you.

I don't agree with your "twisty back road' statement, though, unless the pavement was VERY bumpy.

People "assume" that a '98+ Z28 was the same car as earlier versions. It wasn't. The entire front suspension changed (upper and lower control arms replaced struts), the LS1 replaced the LT1 (taking ~ 90 pounds off the front end in the process) and the entire front structure (i.e. shock towers) was significantly straightened.

RPO 1LE featured FACTORY installed DA Konis, very high wheel rates, a Torsen differential, special bushings and a larger rear bar. The car weighed 3,380 pounds with a full tank of gas and sat much lower than a TL. It also had far better weight distribution and more brake/pound (12" rotors all around).

Was the stiffly sprung live axle an issue in very bumpy corners? Yes.
Did I drive fast enough through those corners to care?

No.

harddrivin1le

I met to say "strengthened" in lieu of "straightened."

Anyway, here's the car. I drove it for 6 years and 80K miles. I had an '06 Accord V6/6 speed EX coupe (Fitted with Tein SSs all around, the 17mm rear TL bar and 17"X7" Centerlines wearing 225/45-17 Eagle F1s) after that. I just traded that for this '07 TL-S.

I'm 43 and have owned/been driving high performance cars continuously since 1986. I also have a Bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineering.

I don't need some kid telling me which car was capable of blowing the other two away on virtually ANY road...or track.



[QUOTE=S PAW 1]

harddrivin1le

...and yes, the front suspension geometry and front end structure changed in 1993, with the arrival of the LT1.

Nevertheless, a run of the mill LT1 isn't a 3,380 pound, fixed roof, '99 1LE/LS1 (aluminum block) with a Torsen and 12" brakes all around.

I really wish they'd give us more than 5 mins to tweak our posts...

harddrivin1le

That's because an M3 is REAR WHEEL drive. During acceleration, weight transfers off the front wheels and to the rear wheels (in any car). Thus, front drive cars LOSE traction (and become more likely to spin their wheels during hard acceleration) while rear wheel drive cars GAIN traction.

That's why top fuel drag racing cars (not to mention most other forms of high level auto racing) use rear wheel drive exclusively. (RWD is also far better suited to road and oval track racing, for that and many other reasons.)

The last gen (with the new V8 model right on the horizon) could run mid 13 second quarter miles at ~ 106 MPH. No stock TL can run with that.

I own an '07 TL-S and have never owned a BMW product. I'm simply stating objective facts.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

For some reason, I've never understood the difference in the weights of the F-bodys. My 94 LT1 MN6 with t-tops and a half tank of gas weighed in at 3360, and that was with the 17x11 ZR1s on the back! I installed a takeout torsen from a newer LS1 when I upgraded to a 3 series carrier, and it was worlds better than the stocker. I had always planned to do the LS1 brakes, they were immensely better. I agree that you will get some understeer on at the limit handling in the TL, however I think that the f-body was too prone to oversteer. It makes for a fun ride, but also a scary one if you didn't know what you were doing. I've seen many people get themselves into something they couldn't get out of safely. For me, I've always had more fun driving a slower car at its limits that a faster car beneath its limits. Does that make sense? Once you lose it in the camaro, its usually going full circle. Mine rarely pushed, if ever. The TL to me is a bit more confidence inspiring on twisty roads and interstate on and off ramps. Exit ramp tag is a lot more fun in this car than my camaro.

why1504

I must agree here. in true performance, RWD is always better than FWD except on rough roads. I am now over 1000 miles and have several full throttle runs. If I am on a track I want RWD. But the car has seem 100MPH+ and it is very, very stable. I have little doubt it would cruise @ 125 with no problems assuming you could find a safe place to drive her like this. I have not driven the fore mentioned Camaro but that car has a good reputation for handing very well as live axle cars go. It is very difficult for a front wheel drive car to be competitive with a RWD in a track environment. How many racers drive FWD in NASCAR, F1, etc. The TL is one hell of a street car. This is why I bought my TL-S. Comfortable, fast, easy to drive. I am sure Mr. Harddriven will agree that the TL-S is easier to drive and more comfortable than his Camaro. That this is especially true with 4 people in the car. All cars are a compromise, with cost as one of the primary factors. Otherwise we would all would have one of those high dollar Bentleys in the garage. For the money the TL-S is one of the best street cars out there.

Screamin, the environments you identify are real world street situations. As for unstable, try an old 911 turbo. it would begen to slide and you need to add throttle to get more downforce on the read tires to get it to stick. RWD requires more skill than FRW.

harddrivin1le

Subjective opinions aside, the F-bodies real world results in stock class competition speak for themselves, just as Bruce mentioned here: https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=21

SCCA Solo is autocross, which is a tight, pylon-based course that stresses chassis dynamics over power. (The F-bodies do even better on higher speed tracks, where their superior power to rate ratios make themselves known.)

Search around and you'll quickly see that the F-bodies do quite well and are generally competitive with late model BMW 3 series cars (which are known for their fine handling qualities).

Example: Note that those are TIMES, where lower numbers equate to better performance and that the emphasis here is on the STOCK classes only, which permit very few mods (e.g. shocks, front bar, minor tire upgrades):

http://www.sfrscca.com/solo2/Results...p/round10.html

BTW: Professional racers (and seasoned amateurs) seek over-steer because they know it's the fastest way around the track.

The TL is a high quality, well built, front wheel drive, TOURING/LUXURY car. It is not a dedicated performance car.

harddrivin1le

Obviously I meant to say "power to weight."

And my comments apply primarily to Gen IV LS1 cars (and 1LE cars in particular).

That being said, the performance F-bodies (e.g. WS6 Trans Am and Z28) have been noted for their fine handling qualities (relative to other cars of the same timeframe) since they made their debut in the 1982 model year.

I've drive plenty of fine iron and some fine iron owner/drivers drove my LS1/1LE. Generally speaking, it was the other guys who were raising their eyebrows in surprise.

My TL-S is simply not in the same league as the 1LE - especially past 7/10ths or so. Imagine using lift throttle oversteer to coax a TL into a light, perfectly balanced 90 MPH drift in a decreasing radius exit ramp...That's not going to happen. Ditto for power-on-oversteer or most other traits that make up a fine handling car.

S PAW 1

I am sure you enjoyed your road rocket. I enjoyed my Roadrunner too. My '07
TL-S though, is quicker in the quarter, handles much better, actually has brakes, and gets great gas mileage. All of this with only 212 cubic inches of aluminum alloy engine vs. 383 c.i. of heavy cast iron. I doubt that you will find many people on this forum who will agree with your Camaro's superiority.
Road & Track has a few lateral acceleration numbers for you to look at in their Road Test summary:
'07 TL-S 6MT....... .91g
'07 Z51............... .93g
'06 M5................. .87g
'05 S2000............. .91g

Seriously, as the OP said at the very beginning, you can compare the TL-S to some very serious handling machines. Most cost substantially more, I could add. The old muscle cars aren't in the same league. They are worth alot of money though, if you can find one that didn't wrap itself around a tree somewhere.

bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Hey, I liked Roadrunners too, but you forgot to mention the 440 and 426 versions of the car. On the other hand, what does comparing an older muscle car have to do with a 1LE Camaro LS1?

Which means what, exactly? It's a typical fanboy forum, so you wouldn't expect people to be handing out superlatives to other cars, would you? In fact, most of the contributors appear to have somewhat limited experience, carwise. Not to mention the significant percentage of posters who just want to know how much tint they can get away with on *all* the windows, plus how big a tire can they fit on their slammed TL-S with 20s.

Which means what, exactly? This is like asking someone to describe himself, and he says "I'm six feet tall." Not particularly helpful. First and foremost, there is no way a TL-S is going to stay with any of the other cars mentioned on any road course you can name.

You absolutely cannot compare a TL-S to *any* serious handling machine. It's a good handling car, especially for a moderately heavy fwd machine - but it ain't a serious handler by any stretch of the imagination.

Again, what does comparing a Road Runner have to do with a 1LE LS1 Camaro? Compared to the TL-S, the Camaro *is* a serious handling machine.

Bruce

harddrivin1le

You've got that right.

As you alluded to above, many "car people" look at skidpad numbers and assume that's all there is to a vehicle's handling traits. (e.g. "My car pulled more Gs than yours did in ROAD AND TRACK, so my car handles better.") Slalom times can't come close to telling the full story, either. For that matter, even lap times around a road racing circuit don't fully define the total "handling" picture.

A co-worker bought a new C6 Z51Corvette 2 years ago. I drove that car. It has more GRIP than the 1LE, a little less body roll, somewhat better brakes and worked better over washboard/rough pavement. But it didn't feel as "dialed in" as my 1LE did.

As you said, the TL (including the TL-S, a carbon bronze version of which is sitting right under me in my garage) is NOT "a serious handling machine."

Here's a link to a 2001 ROAD AND TRACK article, where Steve Millen drove several production line performance cars around the Thunderhill road course. The MSRP on that Camaro SS tells me that it was a well optioned car. It couldn't have been a 1LE, based on that MSRP and the fact that RPO 1LE died halfway through the '99 model year. Thus, it was relatively heavy, likely equipped with the (flex inducing) T-tops and lacked the DA Koni Yellows and the 1LE's firmer bushings:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....article_id=155

Selected Lap Times:

Camaro SS (not a 1LE): 2:16.46
Honda S2000: 2.17.66
Acura NSX (!): 2:14.15
BMW "M" Roadster: 2.17.28
Porsche Boxster S: 2:17.46

Yes, the Ferrari 360, Z06 'Vette and 911Turbo were faster...

I hate cars

Anytime I hear people refer to the TL as fast or a "serious handling machine" I assume they know nothing about cars and have never driven anything fast. I've all but stopped replying to posts like that. I've been in enough LS1 F-bodies to know not to even attempt to stay with them in the curves. My roommate even had a 1989 TTA which was factory equipped with the 1LE package. That thing and the TL should not be mentioned in the same sentence when it comes to performance. There is no comparison.

harddrivin1le

The '93"+ cars got even better dynamically. The front structure (including the shock towers) was significantly strengthened. Upper and lower A-arms replaced the struts. The much more powerful (and lighter) all aluminum LS1 was added. RPO 1LE included the DA Koni Yellows (beginning, I believe, in the '97 model year). V8 cars got the Torsen differential beginning in '99.

The car was good enough to run with a stock Z51 'Vette of the same year - unless the 'Vette driver was very good and the road was very twisty (and bumpy).

People fall victim to advertising (e.g. "race inspired double wishbone suspension") without having any understanding of how that translates into performance improvements.

I haven't even mentioned fuel economy yet. I got 28.7 MPG with the car going from RI to Alexandria, VA while averaging 81.6 MPH. I averaged ~ 23 MPG in "mixed" (mainly city) driving. That was with the SLP cat-back I installed, which seemed to improve things by .5 MPG or so.

The engine made power everywhere and could be short shifted. 92 MPH equated to an even 2,000 RPM on the tach. Revs eat fuel and that engine doesn't have to rev to make power (though it makes lot of it when it is revved.)

Anyone who thinks pushrods are "outdated technology" doesn't understand how well they can work when done right.

The car's interior was low rent, the stereo was very marginal, the seats sucked (replaced my driver's side with a Recaro) and the switched and sensors were typical GM junk. For $21,600 out the door, I was more than happy to tolerate those shortcomings.

bruce.augenstein@comcast.

A good example is the current Corvette Z06 engine at 505 HP and 470 foot pounds, which compares very favorably with the current V10 in the M5 and M6 BMWs. The M engine makes 500 HP and 389 foot pounds, meaning it's way down on torque - but get this: The Z06 actually weighs a bit less than the M engine (at about 495 pounds fully dressed vs around 510 pounds for the M engine), and it's a bit more compact dimensionally.

I'm not putting down the M engine. After all, I believe it's won "Engine of The Year" from Ward's or somebody. But hey, if you put the Z06 engine in the M5, it'd be a faster car, with a slightly better weight balance.

I'm impressed with the engine in my '07 TL-S 6-speed, but hell, I wouldn't care if it was steam powered. Pushrods would be just fine with me.

Bruce

harddrivin1le

I've been booted off a couple of BMW forums for making virtually identical comments (e.g. "The M3 would be a better car if it used the (them current) Corvette LS6 engine.")

16 city/ 24 highway for this 2006 3.2 liter I6 M3:

http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/E-BMW-M3-06.htm

An '02 - '04 Z06 (405 HP LS6) was rated at 19/28 and would blow the M3 into the weeds. Making matters worse is that fact that the LS6 engine was cheaper to build. (Great engine - still may favorite - all things (including cost of manufacture and fuel economy) considered.)

DOHC engines are expensive and top heavy (big heads, multiple cams, lots of valves/related hardware and drive sprockets/chains). Those parts also introduce additional internal friction.

GM has proven that larger displacement, pushrod/2 valve engines can make more power, be more fuel efficient and cost less to build than smaller displacement, multi-valve engines. Many have simply chosen to ignore that reality.