While contemplating the TL this morning (still in the market but will probably get one)...one thing occurred to me....It's price range/category. It's clearly a little more upscale than the loaded Mazda 6, Mitsubishi galant, etc..... but I don't know that it obtains the status (at least in the court of public opinion) of an Audi A6 or Volvo S60. Now comes the tough part...price wise, it seems right in the middle. The middle of the road vehicles mentioned max out mid-high 20s and the well equipped luxury cars mentioned above are mid-high 30s. The TL (without NAVI) can be had for approx. 31k. So here's the question. How would you rate it? Don't be biassed! All of you who are owners are of course understandably biassed but try to put your true thoughts down on paper here.

 

Consumer reports named it the best as have many other publications. Test drive the TL and whatever else you are compaing it to and you will be able to judge for yourself.

An Audi A6 with the 3.0 is sluggish (to be nice) compared to the TL

 

the TL is an entry level luxury sedan. it has alot of the amenities that luxury sedans offer. its definitely targetted towards the driver who is aiming at a sporty ride. kind of like how mercedes is the limo luxury car while bmw is the sports enthusiast. the perforated leather seats is a give away at the sports oriented feel. most larger luxury cars would be plush leather. things offered on it make a very nice value are stereo system, navigation, xenon, heated and memory seats, auto-dim rear view, and brembo brakes(6MT) just to name a few. This year the TL has no type-s version and just strapped the 270hp motor to all versions. There are of course things that are missing from it like heated rear seats, auto-on headlights, auto leveling/adjusting headlights, speed sensing cruise control and smart card system. i know there are more options that i have not listed that the TL does not have. but in essence i think honda does a great job in creating a car from the accord platform that is a nice step up from the accord. i would compare it againts a 3 series or A4 not quite the A6 or S60, price wise it's more similar to those. the A6 and S60 would be in the 5 series class. but because the TL is competing against the 3 series and A4 its an easy winner for me. With all the extras you get standard it doesn't take a lot to convince me to get the TL instead.

 

The poor TL is in a funny, catch-22 situation.

Shopping simply in terms of car basics--performance & ride--you find the TL standing toe-to-toe/exceeding others in the near luxury/sports sedan class (as well as the midsize luxury cars) on both counts. Shopping features--all those goodies--you find that the TL is frequently at the cutting edge (witness DVD-A and bluetooth), with fit & finish standards exceeding other nearlux/ss cars. BUT, shopping price, the TL is only marginally more expensive than a loaded family sedan AND is at the low end of the entry near lux/sports sedan crowd AND is well below the luxury midsize A6, BMW 5.

The pricing troubles the status conscious (the nouveau riche who absolutely need to let you know that they can afford a $40 or $50 car); the performance troubles the RWD enthusiast (although if AWD ever makes it to the TL ...); and how do you make sense of the features/fit/finish/reliability for such a bargain price??

All leading to a bit of an identity crisis. What is the TL? Not a BMW 3-series, G35, or A6? This makes our beloved TLs hard to categorize but OH SO MUCH fun and our wallets a little fatter.... :lol2:

 

i would classify the g35 and the TL in the same class. the g35 is no where near the A6 class but certainly falls exactly where the TL is.

 

I think it is approprately priced. This car is solid in all areas for 35k. Seems to be a little better built than the last one. Great car for the money. Clearly, people agree as TL sales are strong so far.

 

I figured it's appropriately priced. While I get some "extra" power, the ES330 for example has a real wood interior, is slightly bigger and to me is quieter on the road. While other near luxury cars like the 325 and A4 are way overpriced IMO and are more on part with the TSX than the TL, while the A6 and 5-Series are better than the TL.

In choosing peers for the TL, as I see it, you can go by size or goodies and then compare the prices for those.

Compared to the A4 and 3-Series the TL is bigger, the ES330 about the same size and about the same price, while the A6, GS and 5-Series are way "nicer" (IMO) and have options for WAY more luxurious stuff like dynamic cruise, rear sunshades and real wood interiors etc etc (but then you're looking at WAY more money).

So I just think the TL is the big fish in the near-luxury pond rather than a small fish in the luxury pond.

 

The price and the options they offer which convinced me to purchase one. In other cars like the 3 Series/ A4 the options which were similar to the TL.. cost lots more money. The G35 on the otherhand is somewhat a competition to the TL..

 

For the last option y over prices mazda. It would be and over priced honda if anyhting. Ie and accord w/ acura badges and hefty price tag

 

If you need a car to show-off and be snooty about, cough up the extra $10,000+ for the propeller/4 rings badge. Everyone will know you've got it made. If you want to make a smart choice, the answer should be obvious. It basically boils down to how much you care about how others think of you.

 

Interesting, you enable the display of voters features... whoever votes would have their names on it...

Anonymous is better... IMO.


04TL is very good car.

 

Respectfully, I view it differently.

The TL and the G35 may cost about the same, but when you put them next to each other and compare features, fit & finish, style, attention to detail, composition of shapes, colors, textures... they are in a different class.

I love the G35 Coupe and Sedan. If sports car handling and balanced weight were my main priorities, I would get this fine car.

I tend to agree with Car & Driver in their annual auto issue. They put the TL in the Luxury catagory. Not "entry level" or "near luxury." Luxury.

Now, we mature folks tend to think Cadillac, M-B, and BMW when we think "luxury". I think the TL has redefined the term.

As to quality- I'll match it with any luxury marque.
As to looks- ditto
As to engineering- ditto
As to performance- ditto
As to materials- ditto
As to comfort- ditto
As to reliability- ditto
As to dealer support- ditto
As to quiet- ditto. Well, you get the point.

If you own a TL, you can park it with pride next to a BMW 525 knowing that you have more goodies, can blow its doors off in any objective measure of performance, and that you got a whole lot more for your considerable expenditure. The TL isn't cheap but it definitely is worth every dollar compared to the German marques.

Now, you will have Euro elitists who will argue that the BMW feels better subjectively when you drive it. Well, for their sake, I hope it does because they are paying a lot for that "feel" and for the cache' of driving a German car. The question is: is that status and feel important to you and, assuming the answer is "Yes," what are you willing to pay for it.

You know my answer. I get my TL Friday. I have the means to get any car in production. But I didn't acquire those means by pissing them away foolishly.

I will have enough change left over to take a month's vacation in Europe where I will probably (again) rent a BMW and have a ball driving around the mountain roads and farmlands of my Bavarian ancestors. That should get it out of my system.

 

I'm one of the biggest proponets of this car. It is pure fun to drive and has some awesome amenities. For the money I don't think that there's a better car on the market that mixes all the categories you mention. I even like the OEM tires and recently got the one problem fixed- memory module for the seats.

However, comparing our car to the BMW 525 is tough. Reliability we definitely have that car beat and our 5.1 sound system beats it too. That car doesn't have Blue Tooth and our navigation system is better. Our car has more horsepower and is faster. Our car is better in snow. Our car has a bigger trunk.

BMW: The upgraded sport seats are the most comfortable I've ever sat in. The handling is second to no other sedan. The paint job and quality of leather are much better. The standard tires are superior in wet/dry conditions. The car is quieter in the interior and the interior parts are more luxurious. I have several friends that own this car- it's the benchmark.

The BMW is much more expensive than our car and I do think the TL is a great vehicle too!

 

According to www.bridgestone.com, the BMW has the same tires. However, I am aware, as I said originally, that the feel of the BMW is unsurpassed. They are beautifully ballanced. I love them. But, objectively- I don't think its performance numbers, including grip, are as good as the TLs. I believe our TL will even outperform the 530i.

You would have to get up in the $55-60k neighborhood of the 540i to get better performance than a TL. That's an expensive neighborhood!

I haven't figured out why a half-liter increase in displacement for a 6 cylinder engine (2.5 vs. 3.0) should cost $7,000. Then another $10,000 for the V8?
Mein Gott in Himmel!

 

Yes, dozens of other cars having EL42s, but they all have the different sizes and specifications, which could make the difference. Nobody knows what's going on.

BTW, some of other brands' cars having EL42s also experience flatspot issues. But 04TL has most serious problems so far with this Bridgestone Turanza EL42.

 

I must have missed that, but they must have been smoking something. I would say definetly a "near-luxury", the materials inside are not of "luxury" standard, leather is more vinyl like that I would expect. The leather in my I35 seemed to be of a slightly higher grade. To me Luxury is a Lexus SC/GS/LS and maybe an ES, Infiniti M or Q, and maybe event he RL, but not a TL, not refined enough in my mind.

 

agreed i am a big fan of bmw cars and there is definitely a difference in the quality of the material used. the leather is alot better as is the paint. the interior trim is not plastic but real wood. although it lacks alot of the tech goodies in the e39(previous 5 series), the new 5 series is very tech oriented. the console is centered around an lcd screen that has diagnostics and controls for the car(just like the 7 series). it monitors just about everything on the car. a jog dial(similar to a mouse) is used to navigate the menu features. the TL's navigation system gives this type of control but if you take a look at the layout it's clear to see that the bmw is designed with more care. we all know you get what you pay for and although i agree that bmw's are a little overpriced they do offer a superior car. but price/performance/value the TL wins hands down.

 

I could not agree less with your assessment of the BMW's navigation/electronics. I-Drive is insanely complex to use when driving, even though it is really cool and very comprehensive. I think that they're going in the right direction, but designed with care? It was designed in an office, not for use in the real world.

I don't actually think the 5-series is particularly overpriced, given its quality, and I agree that they are really different...

 

have you used the I-Drive system? i played around with it and it seems pretty straight foward once you get use to it. its not as complex as the magazines make it sound. i agree it might have too high a learning curve for older generations and bmw might have been ambitious in creating such an advance system. the target audience for the 5 series is probably around 40+ which might not have grown up in the dot com generation. i bet you put any 19 year old kid behind the wheel of the 5 series and they will get use to the I-Drive in no time.

 

Yes.

My point was not that I-Drive was too complex, but not easy to use when driving.

I am not qualified to speak re. "older" folks, above say 40 or "kids" below 20. However, as a tech savvy driver (relative to the population, but probably not the posters on this board). That said, I did not think it would be difficult to learn, but, to repeat, I thought that it would be difficult to make full use of the system while driving...

Bluetooth and the voice-activated aspects of the TL's navigation are both huge pluses to my mind. The only reason that I did not get a TL navigation system, by the way, was because I simply did not need it. Also, as I recall (it has been weeks now since I tested), the I-Drive did not have a touch screen, which makes a huge difference.

I think BMW is going in the right direction, but not yet perfected it. By the way, I-Drive did not disqualify BMW's 5 series from my list; I am not ready to spend $50K on a car as I have to put my kids through college ....

 

Pardon me? Put a 19 year old behind the wheel of MY 5 series? I don't think so. YOU put one behind the wheel of YOUR 5 series, if you want to. But leave me out.

 

As I've explained in an earlier post, I was in the dealership dead set on buying a TL, but due to a negative experience with that dealership, I backed out and I've ended up placing an order for a 330 with the new performance package. So, I definitely have some opinions on what's been said in this thread.

First off, I love the TL. I think it looks awesome, it was fun to drive, the interior is hands down the best in its class (and above its class), and it's a great price. I wanted it for all these reasons and more.

I know most people on this forum don't like comparing the TL to the 3 series because of the size and features. However, I had to compare the two based on price.

I looked at the 530 also, but for the price, it's too sluggish and doesn't have nearly enough features. I-drive was a pain in the ass; I don't care who's driving the car. It was a pain in the ass when I sat in the passenger's seat and tried to use it. Also, the TL's navi KILLS the one in the Bimmers; it was pretty awful, which is why I didn't get one.

I ended up getting the 330 with the performance package because I wanted a car I could DRIVE. The BMW feels like an extension of me; it will do whatever I want it to do almost instinctually. And with the performance package, it feels like the perfect blend of sports car and every day driver. I especially liked the low-end torque in the 330 after driving the TL.

As far as the interior goes, yes the TL wins, but I did feel that the BMW parts had much more of a quality feel to them. Quality of the paint and tires were hands down in favor of the Bimmer.

I agree that the TL is a better value; I would have saved around $6000 (I'm getting mine loaded for $40k with European delivery), but I wouldn't have gotten everything that I wanted.

And no, I completely disagree that the main reason to get the car is for the image. I avoided the BMW for three months of my car search because I didn't want that image. I don't like the fact that BMW owners are seen as a rich and snobbish bunch (I've learned that most aren't) and I don't like the fact that everyone and their mom has a BMW these days. But these are just downsides to driving an incredible car (which is why I'm buying one, not for the image).

Let the flames begin, these are just my opinions on two cars that I really love and respect.

 

I hear you about a negative experience with the dealer. I will start a new thread about my own this afternoon.

Suffice it to say that I have had a TL on order with Rick Case Honda and gave them specific written instructions on what to do and not to do with it when it came in. I wanted to detail it myself rather than risk them ruining my new black paint finish. I also told them NOT to glue the dealer's name all over my $36,000 new car.

They disregarded my instructions written on the face of the order and confirmed TWICE in emails. They seriously marred the finish of the car by running it through their auto car wash and then cleaning the surface with a push-broom type brush. :yack:

I am still sick. I cancelled the order for the car and will most likely go back to the BMW dealer where they at least can be respectful of the customer's wishes and not punch the cars out as if they were selling Hyundai's.

Keep this in mind if you're thinking of buying at Rick Case.

 

Although my story is a little different, I definitely feel your position in that situation. I'm a fairly young guy (25) and look even younger than I am. When I walked into the dealership they treated me very rudely, like some kid off the street who just wanted to test drive the car. One of the sales people actually passed me off on another salesman, who made a point of rolling his eyes about having to deal with me. Funny how his attitude changed when he found out which law firm I'll be starting at in a few weeks.

Once we started negotiating, he had the attitude that he was doing me the world's biggest favor giving me 500 off MSRP (this was a few weeks ago). He tried to justify this price by telling me the "true" cost of the car and the a-spec package. I pulled out the actual acura invoice cost sheets (have a friend who is an acura salesperson) and called him on his bs. I told him I wanted to deal with someone else.

He blustered around a bit and finally brought in another sales person. At that point, the dealer and "state" fees were completely different with this new salesperson, and I'd had enough. I walked out. It really left a bad taste in my mouth with respect to an otherwise AWESOME car.

People talk about the attitudes of the sales people at BMW dealerships. I have to say, the guy I bought my 330 from is the most down to earth and straight forward guy I've met in the car business. Not to say that all Acura dealerships are like that, because earlier in my car search I negotiated/test drove at another dealership that was much better and very professional.

All it takes is one bad apple, but it worked out in the end because I've ordered a car that's perfect for me.

 

I too have found the Acura 'experience' to be less than I expect from a 'luxury' brand.

I'm 32 but unfortunately (or fortunately in some cases) look very young as well for my age. When I walked in the dealership the first time for a test drive, the salesman looked sideways at his manager and waited for his nod before *accompanying* me on the test drive.

On the test drive, he was *really* unhelpful and gave the attitude that he wanted nothing more than to get the drive over with so he could get back to paying customers. He did ask me a couple of times what I did for a living but I made it a point not to tell him. IMHO, his level of service shouldn't be predicated on whether I'm a CEO or a line worker.

Anyway, when we got back to the dealership, the manager walked over to him, spoke a few words to him, and it was like tunring on a switch. Now, I had a very willing, helpful, dim-witted and unknowledgeable salesman willing to do whatever I asked. I guess credit checks can be a good thing after all.

I then walked out telling him he could that he should take lessons from Lexus and BMW (who happen to be next door to them and who were extremely polite and helpful.)

My happy ending is that I really did love the TL and ended up getting it. I just walked in the next day, saw the same salesman, asked him politely to get me another salesman, and ended up getting the manager instead. We negotiated a fair price and have had great service since.

In the end, I think I would have been almost as happy with the 330 I was also considering but ultimately, I spend more time with my car then any salesman or dealership. I liked the TL enough over the 330 to give the dealer another chance and in the end, it paid off.

 

new one is 3.2 and 255 hp, hardly sluggish.. with optopn for 4.3 335hp V8 (more $$$)...
M45 and RL are nicest looking, hopefully they drive nice also.. I am sure Lexus GS, E350 and 530 ae in the huint for the title also..

 

50 here and am as tech-literate as most "whippersnappers". Technology is not a matter of whether someone "can" or "cannot" understand....it all boils down to whether someone (Gen X or Boomer) wants to take the time to get comfortable with it. On the other hand, Acura has made a point of making their technology a lot more user-friendly than has BMW....and that, IMHO, is the next big thing in cockpit ergonomics.