Swat Dude

As usual HD, your knowledge of the subject morphs as you read more links. You become the expert as you argue something you know nothing about. After proving you wrong several times, you eventually pick up on what I was saying and then make it your own idea like you knew it all along. I've seen you do it in other threads and you are doing it here.

HD Motto:

Everything I learned I learned on the internet (while trying to convince people I was the expert)

harddrivin1le

HEAT TRANSFER CAUSES THE SURROUNDING TEMP (in the area being cooled) to DROP (via heat transfer through the evaporator coils)!!!!!

The Joules-Thompson effect causes the TEMPERATURE OF THE REFRIGERANT TO DROP - the MOMENT it leaves the expansion valve and BEFORE it picks up heat in the evaporator!!!!!

Swat Dude

I got kicked in the Joules once.

http://www.e-testicles.com/

TLover

After reading all this, I have to say the Joules-Thompson effect definitely makes the TL a better car than the Chrysler 300.

Swat Dude

No SH$% sherlock. That is what I've been saying all along but not what you've been saying:

QUOTE:
The Joule-Thompson Effect

When a highly compressed gas is allowed to escape through a small opening, it absorbs a great deal of energy from its surroundings, causing the surrounding temperature to drop. This is the basis of refrigeration.

Norse396

Good night Aegir, conant, svtmike, Swat dude and TLover, gotta get at least 10 winks or my ass will be draggin, have fun with the Bunny!


Ya, dat hoits like da dickens!

harddrivin1le

HEAT TRANSFER CAUSES THE SURROUNDING TEMP (in the area being cooled) to DROP (via heat transfer into the evaporator coils, which are filled with warming refrigerant)!!!!!

The Joules-Thompson effect causes the TEMPERATURE OF THE REFRIGERANT TO DROP - the MOMENT it leaves the expansion valve and BEFORE it picks up heat in the evaporator (from the area being cooled)!!!!!

How difficult it that to understand?

Swat Dude

By the way, Mr. Thermo. You never told me what the heat death of the universe was. Surely, a man of your extensive thermodynamic knowledge would know this elementary theory.

Norse396

I concur! Lets find a thousand links that say so!

harddrivin1le

HEAT TRANSFER CAUSES THE SURROUNDING TEMP (in the area being cooled) to DROP (via heat transfer into the evaporator coils, which are filled with warming refrigerant)!!!!!

The Joules-Thompson effect causes the TEMPERATURE OF THE REFRIGERANT TO DROP - the MOMENT it leaves the expansion valve and BEFORE it picks up heat in the evaporator (from the area being cooled)!!!!!

How difficult it that to understand?

Swat Dude

Good Man! You finally got it! I guess all the explaining I did made you understand. So my time here was wasted afterall.

Swat Dude

I'm waiting. Are you searching?

harddrivin1le

This link that I posted ~ 250 posts back explains the entire thing in vivid detail.
http://www.rifledair.com/old/about2.htm

As shown in Figure 1, the basic vapor cycle air conditioning system is quite simple in concept and can be achieved, in addition to the refrigerant that actually transports the heat, with only four physical components. These components are the: Compressor: - a rotating machine that causes the refrigerant to continuously circulate through the vapor cycle loop;
Evaporator: - a heat exchanger that accepts heat from the area being cooled and transfers this heat to the refrigerant;
Condenser: - a heat exchanger that rejects heat contained in the refrigerant to the outside (ambient);
Expansion Valve: - a small metering orifice that causes the circulating condensed (liquid) refrigerant contained at high pressure in the Condenser to drop and flow into the low pressure in the Evaporator.


When the Compressor is running, refrigerant vapor is drawn from the Evaporator. This refrigerant vapor has already completed its cooling by absorbing heat through evaporation. The Compressor then compresses this low pressure refrigerant to a much higher pressure. This compression process, which also adds energy to the refrigerant, causes its temperature to increase considerably above the ambient outside temperature. As this now hot, high pressure compressed refrigerant flows through the Condenser, its available heat is transferred to the relatively cooler outside air. During this heat transfer process, the hot refrigerant vapor flow transforms to a relatively warm liquid through condensation and cooling, but remains at high pressure in the Condenser. (The condensing refrigerant undergoes precisely the same physical process that atmospheric water vapor does when it is cooled sufficiently and turns into rain.)

Next, the high pressure condensed refrigerant (which has rejected its heat to the environment) flows through the Expansion Valve and then into the Evaporator which, again, operates at low pressure. The significant drop in pressure experienced by the liquid refrigerant as it flows through the Expansion Valve causes it to "flash" into a low pressure mixture of cold gas and liquid. It is during this process, known as the Joule-Thompson effect, that the refrigerant actually becomes cold.

By operating the Evaporator at a sufficiently low pressure, the temperature of the refrigerant in the Evaporator will drop well below the temperature of the conditioned air space surrounding it. Therefore, the cold refrigerant contained within the Evaporator receives heat from the relatively cool (but warmer) surrounding conditioned air. This surrounding heat, although at relatively low temperature, causes the even colder low pressure liquid refrigerant to actually boil into vapor form in the Evaporator. Having absorbed heat from the cool air conditioned space, the low pressure refrigerant gas then re-enters the Compressor where it is again compressed. This continuously repeating set of processes (the "cycle") literally pumps heat from a lower temperature to a higher temperature thus achieving air conditioning.

Note, however, that this thermal pumping nonetheless relies upon heat flowing in its natural direction: from hot to cold in both heat exchangers. For example, the Evaporator is caused to be colder than the heat contained within the space being air conditioned. Therefore, heat must flow from the warmer conditioned interior to the colder refrigerant in the Evaporator. Likewise, during condensation, the Condenser is made to operate at a temperature sufficiently high to enable heat contained within it to naturally flow to the lower temperature ambient (outside) air.

it is the Compressor that actually causes the heat to be transported from lower temperature air conditioned area to the higher temperature environment. This is achieved by increasing the refrigerant temperature above ambient so its heat can be transferred to the outside and, simultaneously, physically moving the refrigerant through the loop. The Compressor is thus unique among the vapor cycle components: it is the only one that actually receives motive power. The remaining components are passive and have no moving parts. -- this is one reason the Compressor is considered to be the heart of an air conditioner.

Swat Dude

Quick, do you know what this????

Can you use it???

http://www.heatcraftheattransfer.com...Normal5000.PDF

Swat Dude

You posted it... but it took you 250 threads to understand it. That is my point.

Swat Dude

Okay, class, in your own words, without linking, quick! what is the first law of thermodynamics????

harddrivin1le

That isn't true.

Swat Dude

Whatever!

harddrivin1le

Here I am spelling it out in post 215:

http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showp...&postcount=215

Bottom line:

What YOU thought was attributable to "the combined gas law" is ACTUALLY attributable to THE JOULE-THOMPSON EFFECT.

THAT is the what permits the refrigerant to become cold enough such that heat from the area to be cooled can be tranfered (into the evaporator coils).

Swat Dude

Okay, if you are an ME, please answer the following question: Starting at the black dot on this chart and assuming you cooled the air with the cycle you know so much about, tell me at what dry bulb temp you would start to remove latent heat?

Swat Dude

Temp is increased as pressure is increased. This is not J-T.

J-T is an effect, not a law. It is based on the laws of physics. You are so confused.

harddrivin1le

Don't know...don't care...

Haven't looked @ that shit since 1986 and it's 2:00 in the AM my time.

But I DO know this:

http://www.rifledair.com/old/about2.htm

As shown in Figure 1, the basic vapor cycle air conditioning system is quite simple in concept and can be achieved, in addition to the refrigerant that actually transports the heat, with only four physical components. These components are the: Compressor: - a rotating machine that causes the refrigerant to continuously circulate through the vapor cycle loop;
Evaporator: - a heat exchanger that accepts heat from the area being cooled and transfers this heat to the refrigerant;
Condenser: - a heat exchanger that rejects heat contained in the refrigerant to the outside (ambient);
Expansion Valve: - a small metering orifice that causes the circulating condensed (liquid) refrigerant contained at high pressure in the Condenser to drop and flow into the low pressure in the Evaporator.


When the Compressor is running, refrigerant vapor is drawn from the Evaporator. This refrigerant vapor has already completed its cooling by absorbing heat through evaporation. The Compressor then compresses this low pressure refrigerant to a much higher pressure. This compression process, which also adds energy to the refrigerant, causes its temperature to increase considerably above the ambient outside temperature. As this now hot, high pressure compressed refrigerant flows through the Condenser, its available heat is transferred to the relatively cooler outside air. During this heat transfer process, the hot refrigerant vapor flow transforms to a relatively warm liquid through condensation and cooling, but remains at high pressure in the Condenser. (The condensing refrigerant undergoes precisely the same physical process that atmospheric water vapor does when it is cooled sufficiently and turns into rain.)

Next, the high pressure condensed refrigerant (which has rejected its heat to the environment) flows through the Expansion Valve and then into the Evaporator which, again, operates at low pressure. The significant drop in pressure experienced by the liquid refrigerant as it flows through the Expansion Valve causes it to "flash" into a low pressure mixture of cold gas and liquid. It is during this process, known as the Joule-Thompson effect, that the refrigerant actually becomes cold.

By operating the Evaporator at a sufficiently low pressure, the temperature of the refrigerant in the Evaporator will drop well below the temperature of the conditioned air space surrounding it. Therefore, the cold refrigerant contained within the Evaporator receives heat from the relatively cool (but warmer) surrounding conditioned air. This surrounding heat, although at relatively low temperature, causes the even colder low pressure liquid refrigerant to actually boil into vapor form in the Evaporator. Having absorbed heat from the cool air conditioned space, the low pressure refrigerant gas then re-enters the Compressor where it is again compressed. This continuously repeating set of processes (the "cycle") literally pumps heat from a lower temperature to a higher temperature thus achieving air conditioning.

Note, however, that this thermal pumping nonetheless relies upon heat flowing in its natural direction: from hot to cold in both heat exchangers. For example, the Evaporator is caused to be colder than the heat contained within the space being air conditioned. Therefore, heat must flow from the warmer conditioned interior to the colder refrigerant in the Evaporator. Likewise, during condensation, the Condenser is made to operate at a temperature sufficiently high to enable heat contained within it to naturally flow to the lower temperature ambient (outside) air.

it is the Compressor that actually causes the heat to be transported from lower temperature air conditioned area to the higher temperature environment. This is achieved by increasing the refrigerant temperature above ambient so its heat can be transferred to the outside and, simultaneously, physically moving the refrigerant through the loop. The Compressor is thus unique among the vapor cycle components: it is the only one that actually receives motive power. The remaining components are passive and have no moving parts. -- this is one reason the Compressor is considered to be the heart of an air conditioner.

Swat Dude

Any ME could answer this in less than 10 seconds. It is elementary my dear HD.

Swat Dude

Well hot damn! I think we made some history tonight. HD finally admitted he didn't know something!!!! I have to post a link to this. This truly is a day that will go down in the TL forum history.

TLover

I know, I know. The Chrysler 300 sucks!?

harddrivin1le

http://www.rifledair.com/old/about2.htm

As shown in Figure 1, the basic vapor cycle air conditioning system is quite simple in concept and can be achieved, in addition to the refrigerant that actually transports the heat, with only four physical components. These components are the: Compressor: - a rotating machine that causes the refrigerant to continuously circulate through the vapor cycle loop;
Evaporator: - a heat exchanger that accepts heat from the area being cooled and transfers this heat to the refrigerant;
Condenser: - a heat exchanger that rejects heat contained in the refrigerant to the outside (ambient);
Expansion Valve: - a small metering orifice that causes the circulating condensed (liquid) refrigerant contained at high pressure in the Condenser to drop and flow into the low pressure in the Evaporator.


When the Compressor is running, refrigerant vapor is drawn from the Evaporator. This refrigerant vapor has already completed its cooling by absorbing heat through evaporation. The Compressor then compresses this low pressure refrigerant to a much higher pressure. This compression process, which also adds energy to the refrigerant, causes its temperature to increase considerably above the ambient outside temperature. As this now hot, high pressure compressed refrigerant flows through the Condenser, its available heat is transferred to the relatively cooler outside air. During this heat transfer process, the hot refrigerant vapor flow transforms to a relatively warm liquid through condensation and cooling, but remains at high pressure in the Condenser. (The condensing refrigerant undergoes precisely the same physical process that atmospheric water vapor does when it is cooled sufficiently and turns into rain.)

Next, the high pressure condensed refrigerant (which has rejected its heat to the environment) flows through the Expansion Valve and then into the Evaporator which, again, operates at low pressure. The significant drop in pressure experienced by the liquid refrigerant as it flows through the Expansion Valve causes it to "flash" into a low pressure mixture of cold gas and liquid. It is during this process, known as the Joule-Thompson effect, that the refrigerant actually becomes cold.

By operating the Evaporator at a sufficiently low pressure, the temperature of the refrigerant in the Evaporator will drop well below the temperature of the conditioned air space surrounding it. Therefore, the cold refrigerant contained within the Evaporator receives heat from the relatively cool (but warmer) surrounding conditioned air. This surrounding heat, although at relatively low temperature, causes the even colder low pressure liquid refrigerant to actually boil into vapor form in the Evaporator. Having absorbed heat from the cool air conditioned space, the low pressure refrigerant gas then re-enters the Compressor where it is again compressed. This continuously repeating set of processes (the "cycle") literally pumps heat from a lower temperature to a higher temperature thus achieving air conditioning.

Note, however, that this thermal pumping nonetheless relies upon heat flowing in its natural direction: from hot to cold in both heat exchangers. For example, the Evaporator is caused to be colder than the heat contained within the space being air conditioned. Therefore, heat must flow from the warmer conditioned interior to the colder refrigerant in the Evaporator. Likewise, during condensation, the Condenser is made to operate at a temperature sufficiently high to enable heat contained within it to naturally flow to the lower temperature ambient (outside) air.

it is the Compressor that actually causes the heat to be transported from lower temperature air conditioned area to the higher temperature environment. This is achieved by increasing the refrigerant temperature above ambient so its heat can be transferred to the outside and, simultaneously, physically moving the refrigerant through the loop. The Compressor is thus unique among the vapor cycle components: it is the only one that actually receives motive power. The remaining components are passive and have no moving parts. -- this is one reason the Compressor is considered to be the heart of an air conditioner.

Swat Dude

The answer is 54 degrees. You draw a straight horizontal line over to the saturation curve. The line to that point represents sensible cooling. Once you pass that point, you start to travel down the saturation line and latent heat is removed, i.e., water vapor is condensed into liquid.

Swat Dude

"It is during the process, that the refrigerant actually becomes cold." This is what you still don't seem to grasp. The reason it becomes cold-er than the refrigerant temp before compression is because you induced heat transfer while the gas was in a compressed state. You made heat transfer happen by increasing the temp by increasing the pressure so that hot would flow to cold. It was this removal of energy, and not the J-T effect that makes the refrigerant colder than the temp it started at before it was compressed. J-T is part of the refrigeration process, but it is not the basis of it. Removal of heat is. As I said before, you can compress and expand the refrigerant using the J-T effect, but even you said it will be the same temp it started at if there is no condensing stage to remove heat from the refrigerant.

Now how many times to I have to explain this to you?????

Swat Dude

HD Quote: The amount of internal energy given up by the gas (in the form of heat) AFTER it has been compressed ~ = the amount of heat energy that went INTO the gas when it was compressed.

THAT is what "J-T" is saying.

This is true. But it is not the basis for the refrigeration cycle. Removing heat while the gas is in the compressed state is. If you merely compress the gas and cool it with the J-T effect, you do not have a refrigeration cycle.

Do you understand this now????

Swat Dude

http://www.e-testicles.com/

Sivic2k

<Raises hand> Wouldn't removing heat from a compressed gas cause its pressure to decrease, reducing the rate of expansion when the gas is released through that blow-hole thingy, thus killing the cooling effect?

Pushing_Tin

For the love of God, would an admin with some balls please ban this annoying fucktard once and for all!? Every single time I come here I have to read 100+ posts from this moron!! He contributes absolutely nothing to any thread except acrimony.

Everyone else, stop feeding the troll!!

Swat Dude

But its just so much darn fun!!!!!

jjsC5

Yeah, kind of like when someone is just SO ugly, that you cannot help yourself from staring at them... :yack:

Swat Dude

HardDrivin is alot like a Vegas slot machine, even though you will never win anything with him, you got four hours of entertainment in the process.

TLover

"He is a loathsome, offensive brute, yet I can't look away."

Quick ... name that quote.

jjsC5

Yeah, and ya'll really love to pull on his "crank".

Swat Dude

Hey dude, I never got to thank you for your caliper paint tip. I painted all mine gloss black with the $3 rustoleum from Home Depot and they look great. I think the brakes baked on the paint because its super hard and doesn't show any signs of chipping or flaking.

jjsC5

Glad I could help. Always good to see you on the forum. This forum is kind of like a "home away from home" for me. I have about 5600 posts on the Corvette forum, and follow the G35 (Fresh Alloy) forum all the time. Heck, I'm so goofy I even look at the Murano forum every day (just bought one for my wife).

Anyway, thanks again.

Sivic2k

Seinfeld, Ep. 37. Art critic commenting on a portrait of Kramer.