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Hey folks! Some may call it healthy, others, an irrational fear, but it scares the living shite out of me every time I do any work under my TL. In addition to making sure the vehicle & jack stands are on a level, stable surface, this is my process:
1. Wedge chocks behind rear tires
2. Engage emergency brake
3. Use a hydraulic jack from the front/center lift point to get it as high as possible
4. Position my 3Ton jack stands under the side "jack points" (or whatever they're called) with the release handles pointing out
5. Confirm that each jack stand is at the same height (I count the exposed teeth)
6. Slowly lower the hydraulic jack until the center of the car's jack points are resting in the center of the jack stands' grooves
7. Re-establish slight pressure with the hydraulic jack at the center lift point and lock it off
- Note: as inconvenient as it can be having the hydraulic jack still there, it just makes me feel better as an extra precaution
8. Walk around the front of the car apply and apply pressure from various angles to insure it's solid
9. If possible, let it sit overnight and re-inspect everything again the following day before starting work
If the work requires removing one or two wheels, lay them on the ground in front of the jack stands. If it doesn't, I don't bother since removing wheels is a PITA.
So here are my two main questions:
1. Did I miss any steps or should I have done ANYTHING differently?
2. What additional things could I put in place as "backup plans" should god forbid one of the jack stands fail?
I've read some people place extra jack stands besides the ones supporting the car, but I see two problems with this:
1. It assumes that if the primary fails, the car will land just perfectly on the backup
2. The jack points aren't long enough for there to be two jack stands side by side, so WTF is it going to land on
Ideally, you'd have something you could "wedge" behind the jack stand and between the car and ground. And that "something" would also be easy to add & remove.
Just looking for any suggestions and if anyone here has found something that makes them feel REALLY comfortable that they're not going to die doing work under their car.
Would also be interested in any tips for lifting the car further than the limit of what the hydraulic jack can do so as to further extend the height of the jack stands. For example, on the first pass you get it X high off the ground, safely resting on the jack stands. You then reposition the hydraulic jack somewhere further back than the center lift point (would like to know where and "points" you use), raise the car higher, further extend the jack stands, lower the hydraulic lift so the car is now resting on the side jack points but at a higher level. Move the hydraulic jack back under the center lift point, but put more X (e.g., wood, pavers, bricks) in between the jack and the center lift point to account for the additional distance. Yes, I know this isn't ideal for the hydraulic jack, but it's the "emergency backup."
Sorry if this is confusing, so please ask any questions (nicely, if possible) if I was unclear.
Bonus question: can leaving the wheels attached while the vehicle is on jack stands for prolonged periods cause any damage to the suspension? Was curious given that it's a somewhat "unnatural" state for the vehicle to be in and not something that's probably tested.
The best additional safety measure, assuming your wheel is coming off, is to leave the wheel underneath the car. Bonus points if it's wider than the side of your head/chest (or whatever the highest point of your body is when under the car). If the jack fails and god forbid the jack stands fail---it'll fall onto the wheels.
And leaving the wheels on the car while lifted is fine. Depending how soft/stiff your springs are it will just expand a bit but they'll compress and readjust once on the ground again. Never hurts to take it off though. Most people store their vehicle lifted with wheels still on for a few months out of the winter. Taking all 4 wheels off and leaving it under the car isn't a bad idea either. Just make sure the floor doesn't come into contact with water.
Was thinking about this some more...Of course, you could buy a couple more hydraulic lifts and position them from the sides against something stable underneath. But then I was thinking how you might be able to use the scissor jack from the TL, and perhaps an additional vehicle, to create a backup system, maybe with some 2x4's to spread the surface area. Might also be able to go to a used tire/wheel shop and buy some crappy set you could slide somewhere. Not there yet, but I like where this is going.
Wait, wait, wait: what about ramps if you don't need to take the wheels off:
1. Did I miss any steps or should I have done ANYTHING differently?
put more X (e.g., wood, pavers, bricks) in between the jack and the center lift point to account for the additional distance.
My procedure is very similar to yours but I would not leave the car raised overnight. I'm less worried about seal damage to the jack (although that thought occurred to me) and more worried about kids sneaking in and, well, being kids.
I also never raise the jacks on the "teeth". I worry that the jack is now taller and less stable (center of gravity). My 4ton jacks give me enough clearance, when changing oil, to even get my torque wrench down there. Whenever I need to use teeth for a friend's SUV, I feel very uneasy.
Finally, I remember reading something about never using any material that could give way with no warning for supporting a car. I think the article mentioned cinder blocks, but I would also exclude pavers and bricks. I use a piece of 2x4 between the hydraulic jack and the car to raise my car's rear enough to slide the jack stands underneath. I always check the wood for cracks.
I recently found some unused 2x8x10 boards and made some ramps similar to the ones you linked. I will continue to use my hydraulic jack as a backup. I trust my jacks but driving my car on the ramps is much easier than pumping that hydraulic jack when it is 90 and humid. It would have been quicker to buy the rhino-ramps, but I feel uneasy about hollow plastic holding up the car. There are a few videos of those plastic ramps failing, but I imagine they failed due to user error.
My procedure is very similar to yours but I would not leave the car raised overnight. I'm less worried about seal damage to the jack (although that thought occurred to me) and more worried about kids sneaking in and, well, being kids.
If my kids were still kids (youngest is a 15 year-old girl and none of my "kids" would ever get underneath my car), or if I lived someplace where kids sneaked into my locked side-yard to change my oil or transmission fluid (please tell me where that community is so I can move there) I'd understand this concern, but it's 110% not applicable.
Originally Posted by redbeard1
I also never raise the jacks on the "teeth".
Not sure I understand what you' mean by, "on the teeth." My mention of "teeth" was only to be used as a measuring technique to insure both jack stands were extended the same amount. That is, counting the number of notches (aka, "teeth") that each jack was extended. I never suggested "fully extending" the jack stands to their max anymore than I'd recommend one install a ceiling fan while standing on the very top of a ladder.
Originally Posted by redbeard1
Finally, I remember reading something about never using any material that could give way with no warning for supporting a car. I think the article mentioned cinder blocks, but I would also exclude pavers and bricks. I use a piece of 2x4 between the hydraulic jack and the car to raise my car's rear enough to slide the jack stands underneath. I always check the wood for cracks.
Completely agree, but as I stated, I'm only using these materials (whatever they are) temporarily to raise or as part of the "backup plan." I would never suggest doing something so stupid as a primary means of supporting the vehicle and then working on it that way. My neighbor is a Medical Examiner for one of the largest metro areas in the country. He's shared the horror stories of idiots who tried to support their vehicles using cinder blocks, bricks, etc.
Apologies if I'm being touchy here, but I'm interpreting your commentary as a critique of things I've never said or suggested. The whole point of this post was to learn ADDITIONAL ways to protect oneself from being crushed while working on their vehicles, and while already being extremely cautious. I think your comments either misunderstood what I wrote or lack proper context. However, if your comments were meant as a PSA, thank you.
Either I did a really poor job writing, or you did an equally, if not worse, job reading what I wrote. And BTW, as soon as I discovered those ramps, I went out and picked up a set to play with tomorrow. Don't know if they'll be my primary and use jack stands as my "backup," but either way, I'll post my findings...
Your process is roughly what I have always done. I have always used jack stands AND the jack when working under the car. Even doing brakes where I'm not technically under the car, but I am in the zone of getting hurt if the car where to fall, I use jack stands and the jack stays engaged.
Now, I have never used the front lift point. A few reasons for me like I don't like how unbalanced the car is on a single point as well as in my garage, I have very little room in front of the car to work the jack. I normally use the jack at the jack points on each side and put a jack stand under the mounting bolts for the subframe. Lift one side, put on jack stand, then move to the other side. Which ever side I am working under, the jack follows me. If I am "actually" under the car wrenching, I will usually grab a 2nd jack or 2nd set of stands as a fail-safe.
Note that on the jacking points on the sides of the car, that pinch weld can fold over unexpectedly. I bought one of the grooved urethane pads to sit on my jack pad that the pinch weld sits inside of.
Apologies if I'm being touchy here, but I'm interpreting your commentary as a critique of things I've never said or suggested. The whole point of this post was to learn ADDITIONAL ways to protect oneself from being crushed while working on their vehicles, and while already being extremely cautious. I think your comments either misunderstood what I wrote or lack proper context. However, if your comments were meant as a PSA, thank you.
Either I did a really poor job writing, or you did an equally, if not worse, job reading what I wrote.
Apologies, I meant no critique just PSA. My writing could have had softer tone.
A few reasons for me like I don't like how unbalanced the car is on a single point
Sorry, I don't follow? I'm just using the front lift point to raise the car high enough to get the jack stands in place under the side lift points. As mentioned, I prefer to leave the hydraulic jack slightly engaged with the front lift point as an added safety measure should something happen to the jack stands.
Originally Posted by Jackass
Note that on the jacking points on the sides of the car, that pinch weld can fold over unexpectedly. I bought one of the grooved urethane pads to sit on my jack pad that the pinch weld sits inside of.
OK, I just saw my life pass before my eyes with the words "fold over unexpectedly." My jack stands have the V-shaped top like these, but just noticed those pictured also seem have a pin for additional safety that mine don't. Hmmm...
The pinch weld sits centered in the bottom of the "V". Thought the very top of the jack was resting on, or very close to, the car's body, but just checked and that's not the case. If that weld folded, that jack would almost certainly get kicked out. It would be a miracle if the car's body landed on top without something going horribly wrong. That said, if jack stand is centered and positioned correctly right under the pinch weld, I think the odds of it folding would be tiny, no? I'd understand it if the jack wasn't centered or one side of the car was raised higher on it's stand than the opposing side, thus creating an uneven amount of force on the short side. Actually, that's why I've never been comfortable raising one side, then the other and use the center lift point instead and slowly lower it onto the stands at the same time.
Originally Posted by Jackass
...and put a jack stand under the mounting bolts for the subframe...
Do you have a picture of the mounting bolts you could post and do your stands have flat/solid tops (unlike my V tops)? Not sure how my stands could securely sit under a bolt, so want to make sure I understand this setup.
Originally Posted by Jackass
I bought one of the grooved urethane pads to sit on my jack pad that the pinch weld sits inside of.
Can you post where you got these pads or a link/pic of it. I use a hockey puck on my jack pad (if that's what the top of the hydraulic jack is called). It's perfect for engaging the center lift point without scraping anything underneath.
Sorry, I don't follow? I'm just using the front lift point to raise the car high enough to get the jack stands in place under the side lift points. As mentioned, I prefer to leave the hydraulic jack slightly engaged with the front lift point as an added safety measure should something happen to the jack stands.
Lifting from a single point just never gave me much faith the car wasn't going to lean one way or the other. I think I was always over thinking it and just never used those jacking points. I wouldn't put much concern into this overall.
Originally Posted by spamcop01
...but just noticed those pictured also seem have a pin for additional safety that mine don't. Hmmm...
Both sets of my stands have the locking pins. They not only prevent the lever from letting the stand down, they also help transfer more load to the rest of the stand.
Originally Posted by spamcop01
Do you have a picture of the mounting bolts you could post and do your stands have flat/solid tops (unlike my V tops)? Not sure how my stands could securely sit under a bolt, so want to make sure I understand this setup.
Sorry, don't have my TL anymore to get good photos. Look just past the pinch welds and you will see where the sub-frame bolts up. Basically find a spot under there where the front suspension mounts and sub-frame mounts, and make the jack stand fit in a way that the can can't easily slip off. This is how I have handled this on the last 5 cars I have owned.
Originally Posted by spamcop01
Can you post where you got these pads or a link/pic of it. I use a hockey puck on my jack pad (if that's what the top of the hydraulic jack is called). It's perfect for engaging the center lift point without scraping anything underneath.
That is what I have. It fit my TL and my floor jack perfectly. I had to notch the pad out a bit on the side to make it fit my wife's Terrain perfectly. But basically it makes the loading a bit more spread out. I haven't folded a pinch weld over in 20 years...but I have done it in the past on older cars. So I am super careful about it on my newer cars.
https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Universal...dp/B01H46MXO8/
That is what I have. It fit my TL and my floor jack perfectly. I had to notch the pad out a bit on the side to make it fit my wife's Terrain perfectly. But basically it makes the loading a bit more spread out. I haven't folded a pinch weld over in 20 years...but I have done it in the past on older cars. So I am super careful about it on my newer cars.
Since I've never used ramps before, it took me a few attempts to get everything lined up perfectly. They don't provide nearly has much lift as the jack/jack stand combo, but they seem very solid (I don't see any flex in the plastic with the weight of the TL on them). Unfortunately, given the length of the ramp, there's no way to fit a jack stand under the side pinch weld jack points. Instead, I took the fully lowered jack stands and put them under the sub-frame bolt area (I think). There's an inch or so of distance between that area and the top of the jack stands.
For times where I need more clearance or have to take the wheels off, I'd still like to find a place to slide another pair of jack stands (preferably as wide as possible) as a backup. Another fail safe when needing more clearance and leaving the wheels on is I could slide these ramps underneath the tires. Wouldn't be ideal, but might save my life in the event of a jack stand failure...
first off you can make your whole setup safer buy increasing your safety margin. Use 6-ton Jack stands and you won't have to worry about failure when you are using it to only lift 2 tons.
NEVER leave weight on a jack!
By doing so, you are negating the whole point of the jack stands. They are there to support the weight, the jack is ONLY for lifting.
It's very easy to have a jack WITH WHEELS make the car move and tip off "stands" that had no weight or reduced weight on them. Imagine you leave the handle for the jack sticking out and someone nudges it perpendicular to the car. Car will shift and fall over and down. That's why once the weight is on the stands, you remove the jack. You can always place an extra jack stand under large mounting points for the suspension such as lower control arm to body, subframe, etc.
Get a good daytona (Harbor freight) long reach jack that can go up to 24 inches height and 6 ton stands. All of HF's new jackstands have safety pins.
first off you can make your whole setup safer buy increasing your safety margin. Use 6-ton Jack stands and you won't have to worry about failure when you are using it to only lift 2 tons.
NEVER leave weight on a jack!
By doing so, you are negating the whole point of the jack stands. They are there to support the weight, the jack is ONLY for lifting.
It's very easy to have a jack WITH WHEELS make the car move and tip off "stands" that had no weight or reduced weight on them. Imagine you leave the handle for the jack sticking out and someone nudges it perpendicular to the car. Car will shift and fall over and down. That's why once the weight is on the stands, you remove the jack. You can always place an extra jack stand under large mounting points for the suspension such as lower control arm to body, subframe, etc.
Get a good daytona (Harbor freight) long reach jack that can go up to 24 inches height and 6 ton stands. All of HF's new jackstands have safety pins.
Unfortunately, I can confirm that the car can be unbalanced when using the front lift point and a low profile jack with wheel chocks as an added safety measure. Not sure if the car wasn't seated completely on the jack saddle or if the jack wheels moved slightly, but the jack stayed up and the car came down and pushed up the radiator support causing the hood to not be flush. Ended up having to go to a body shop with a frame machine to fix it. Fun times.
...but the jack stayed up and the car came down and pushed up the radiator support ..
Forgive me as I'm having trouble visualizing your setup and exactly what happened? Do you mean you put the car on jack stands and it fell off while the jack was no longer under the center lift point? Sorry, I'm trying to understand how the "car came down."
first off you can make your whole setup safer buy increasing your safety margin. Use 6-ton Jack stands and you won't have to worry about failure when you are using it to only lift 2 tons.
NEVER leave weight on a jack!
By doing so, you are negating the whole point of the jack stands. They are there to support the weight, the jack is ONLY for lifting.
Much like redbeard's earlier post, I'm hoping this is simply another PSA, because it has no relevance to what I posted. In fact, to anyone who feels the need to make declarative statements equivalent to, "Don't be a moron," please preface your comments with something like, "This is a PSA: <insert what a moron might do here> and NEVER DO IT."
Again...to be clear: I never suggested or stated that one should leave the weight of the vehicle on the hydraulic jack or use the hydraulic jack as the primary means of supporting the vehicle while working on it. Instead, I said once you've safely and securely positioned the vehicle on the jack stands, AS AN ADDED PRECAUTION, I try to leave my hydraulic jack (WHOSE PRIMARY PURPOSE SHOULD ONLY BE USED FOR LIFTING) barely engaged at the front, center lift point.
I'm honestly not sure what to make of some of these comments. Either I did a really shitty job writing/explaining my setup, or some of you simply can't resist telling others not to do stupid shite. I'm totally cool with anyone telling those who are reading this post not to do stupid things, but please make it clear that you're doing a PSA and not suggesting that my post recommended doing things that I never did. If you can't yet tell, I find it insulting and incredibly irritating.
Forgive me as I'm having trouble visualizing your setup and exactly what happened? Do you mean you put the car on jack stands and it fell off while the jack was no longer under the center lift point? Sorry, I'm trying to understand how the "car came down."
Sorry if I was unclear. I was lifting the car up from the center lift point in the front of the car with the intention of putting the jack stands on the side rails once it was high enough. Didn't get to that point
I'm not very garage talented if you know what I mean, but when I painted the Brembo's on my 08 Type S I used the center lift position. Made sure it was on the lift point exactly and used 3 ton stands on both front side lift points. The stands were tall enough for what I needed to do in their all the way down position (didn't have to raise the stand at all on the teeth or notches..whatever ya call them lol) That's crazy that happened though sweeT n Lo!
I would think securely positioned on that "bar" would be fine....
Last edited by jeffstlnote; 09-13-2022 at 04:48 PM.
Reading this thread has me thinking about supplementing my car lifting equipment with a steel floor jack cross beam device; however, I'm not sure this would
fit under my lowered CL-S6 once fitted medially on my floor jack.
I've used the center jack point on the front beam with success in the past, though, I'd always have to place the floor jack on a 3/4 half sheet of plywood to get just enough vertical height to fit the jack stands at the side lift plates.
I always thought using the two side shafts of the cross beam (red) would be safer than the center lift point (purple) and now I'm convinced that I need to consider the floor jack cross beam device above.
Sorry if I was unclear. I was lifting the car up from the center lift point in the front of the car with the intention of putting the jack stands on the side rails once it was high enough. Didn't get to that point
So you're saying you think the car shifted/slid off the jack saddle or that you never had the car's lift point properly centered on it? If so, I'm assuming the radiator mount you mentioned must be darn close to that center jack point, correct?
Honestly, i have one heavy duty hydraulic jack that lifts the car to give me enough space and two heavy duty stands and I feel safe. I leave the hydraulic jack and if it disturb my work, I just rearrange it to other point.
So you're saying you think the car shifted/slid off the jack saddle or that you never had the car's lift point properly centered on it? If so, I'm assuming the radiator mount you mentioned must be darn close to that center jack point, correct?
Yes, I believe that's what happened. I have lifted in the past from the front lift point without any issues. I assume that it wasn't fully seated on the jack saddle. Yep, it's directly in front of that lift point.
09-10-2022, 10:37 PM
