EDR's (Event Data Recorders) Is it in our cars?
08-08-2006, 02:54 PM
#1
Team Anthracite Member
Thread Starter
EDR's (Event Data Recorders) Is it in our cars?
Anyone know if our cars have this in them. For those that don't know, there is an article in this weeks time magazine, page 58, about devices similar to Black Boxes that can reveal information about how fast you were driving at the time of the accident that the airbag deployed. "They can retain up to 20 seconds of data on speed, braking, and acceleration that lead up to the crash". This information has been downloaded onto a laptop and used against drivers in court. This is quite controversial as it is electronic snooping, and something that we should know as owners if this device is in our cars? So does anyone know if it is ?
08-08-2006, 05:00 PM
#3
Gratis dictum
I believe our cars do have these data recorders, although I have never seen one. Furthermore, it is my understanding that they are considered to be part of the car, thus belonging to the owner. If that is the case, they cannot be used in litigation without the owners permission, or an order generated by the court.
08-09-2006, 08:33 AM
#5
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Time magazine is just figuring this out?? This technology has been in use for some time now. And it gets worse than that. Take a look at some of the new GM stuff. The car will automatically upload data and it will be emailed to you to show you the status of the car's emission system. On cars with navi and equipped with things such as OnStar, it can get even scarier. The car is completely capable of logging your speed and location and sending that information to law enforcement. It is capable of uploading emissions data to authorities so that if your emissions are out of spec, you could receive a notice in the mail saying to bring your car in for service or else. And here's the real scary part. The federal government actually lobbied to have these systems capable of recording and uploading conversations in the car. That way, all they would have to do is get a warrant and have the manufacturer enable that capability from their desks at the office. Viola! They have your conversations without ever leaving the comfort of their office! Don't believe me? A car with OnStar and VR navigation has absolutely everything in place to implement that at this time. So far, most of this has not met with favorable support and has not been implemented. But a lot has. Just about all manufacturers are required to record certain data that is available to law enforcement, insurance companies, and the manufacturer. It is a constantly running recording of what's going on and if I recall, they save something like the last 30 seconds of speed, throttle angle, brake application, etc. Big brother is here.
08-09-2006, 08:43 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by CobraGuy
Time magazine is just figuring this out?? This technology has been in use for some time now. And it gets worse than that. Take a look at some of the new GM stuff. The car will automatically upload data and it will be emailed to you to show you the status of the car's emission system. On cars with navi and equipped with things such as OnStar, it can get even scarier. The car is completely capable of logging your speed and location and sending that information to law enforcement. It is capable of uploading emissions data to authorities so that if your emissions are out of spec, you could receive a notice in the mail saying to bring your car in for service or else. And here's the real scary part. The federal government actually lobbied to have these systems capable of recording and uploading conversations in the car. That way, all they would have to do is get a warrant and have the manufacturer enable that capability from their desks at the office. Viola! They have your conversations without ever leaving the comfort of their office! Don't believe me? A car with OnStar and VR navigation has absolutely everything in place to implement that at this time. So far, most of this has not met with favorable support and has not been implemented. But a lot has. Just about all manufacturers are required to record certain data that is available to law enforcement, insurance companies, and the manufacturer. It is a constantly running recording of what's going on and if I recall, they save something like the last 30 seconds of speed, throttle angle, brake application, etc. Big brother is here.
and i think im gonna:
time to stop buying new cars, and stick with the good ol' cars from the '90s...
lol .....yea.......right!
08-09-2006, 09:38 PM
#7
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I work for Nissan...Most Nissans have them too, and they tell us not to advertise it or tell the customer as it may bother them, as it does you guys. They tell us that they are in the cars "to help build safer cars in the future" nowhere does it say about cops can access it or anything like that...but what would they tell us, we're just salesman? haha
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08-09-2006, 10:55 PM
#8
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I believe there is a thread on the board where the data from the recorder was used to prove a customer over-revved the engine (by downshifting) and thus blew up the engine. Acura refused to do the work under the warranty because it was caused by the customers misuse of the car.
Also heard stories that the dealer can look up your top speed when you take the car in. Good way to make sure you can do 155mph.
Also heard stories that the dealer can look up your top speed when you take the car in. Good way to make sure you can do 155mph.
08-10-2006, 05:14 AM
#11
Racer
Originally Posted by Repecat
I believe our cars do have these data recorders, although I have never seen one. Furthermore, it is my understanding that they are considered to be part of the car, thus belonging to the owner. If that is the case, they cannot be used in litigation without the owners permission, or an order generated by the court.
Your understanding is incorrect. A judge here in NY ruled last year that data from the devices may be used as evidence in court during the trial of two teenagers who killed a couple when they crashed into a car while racing. It has also been allowed in other states. The data can usually only be obtained with a court order (the mfr may be able to download it without one).
08-10-2006, 06:14 AM
#12
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This information has been downloaded onto a laptop and used against drivers in court. This is quite controversial as it is electronic snooping,
the big concern is abuse or misuse of the data. if i am going 5 mph over the speed limit and fail to break before an accident...a lawyer defending a blue-hair that has no reflexes, hearing, or eyesite that swerved into my lane could beat me in court.
hmmm.
08-10-2006, 06:45 AM
#13
Booya
WTF !!! On a similiar note, whats stopping them from using the big 'eye-in-the-sky' navi/GPS information (if you have one installed) to watch you? If the auto-industry is already onto this, have the 'privacy activists' been sleeping all this while? If the dealer's are collecting data, doesn' t the consumer have to sign a form authorizing collection of privacy data?
08-10-2006, 07:15 AM
#15
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Originally Posted by dipkat
On a similiar note, whats stopping them from using the big 'eye-in-the-sky' navi/GPS information (if you have one installed) to watch you?
08-10-2006, 07:19 AM
#16
Racer
Most of this capability has been around since OBD III Came out. The privacy activists spoke up then, but no one listened. I'm sure there is much more that we don't know about.
08-10-2006, 08:37 AM
#17
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by dipkat
WTF !!! On a similiar note, whats stopping them from using the big 'eye-in-the-sky' navi/GPS information (if you have one installed) to watch you? If the auto-industry is already onto this, have the 'privacy activists' been sleeping all this while? If the dealer's are collecting data, doesn' t the consumer have to sign a form authorizing collection of privacy data?
Or are you referring to the car storing the GPS travel information long term? Yes, THAT would piss me off. And really it wouldn't require a lot of storage space. Anyone who has ever seen the raw GPS serial data output standard NMEA format (I have many times) can tell you it'd would be trivial to store months of data in a small 1GB flash card, possibly many years with compression.
As an example here's one data point... this shows location. velocity and time:
(this is actually what gets passed back to the navigation software)
Code:
$GPRMC,123519,A,4807.038,N,01131.000,E,022.4,084.4,230394,003.1,W*6A
Code:
RMC Recommended Minimum sentence C 123519 Fix taken at 12:35:19 UTC A Status A=active or V=Void. 4807.038,N Latitude 48 deg 07.038' N 01131.000,E Longitude 11 deg 31.000' E 022.4 Speed over the ground in knots 084.4 Track angle in degrees True 230394 Date - 23rd of March 1994 003.1,W Magnetic Variation *6A The checksum data, always begins with *
So
69bytes * 60 seconds * 1440 minutes in a day
(69*60) 1440= 5961600 (6MB roughly for 24 hours of recording)
1 week
5961600*7=41731200 (41MB roughly)
1 month
41731200*4=166924800 (166MB roughly)
1 year
166924800*12=2003097600 (2GB approx)
Ok, so now I'll simluate a large file of that size using NMEA data and apply some compression to it. Compression could easily be done in realtime while DVD unit is storing the data.
Code:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6060960 Aug 10 08:33 1day -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 252540 Aug 10 08:33 1hour -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4209 Aug 10 08:22 1minute -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 169706880 Aug 10 08:34 1month -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 42426720 Aug 10 08:34 1week -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2036482560 Aug 10 08:34 1year
Code:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6910014 Aug 10 08:34 1year.gz
Scary! So a 32MB SD card could in theory hold 4 years of 24/7 driving data at a sampling rate of 1 second. Flash memory is so cheap these days it scares me what they can do. In bulk I bet you can get 32MB cards for $1 each, if even.
08-10-2006, 09:35 AM
#18
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Siggy...right now, the data is not being sent via satellite. It's being sent through the OnStar connection. If you don't have that feature on your vehicle, it can't be sent. But there is definitely an abundance of information stored on the data recorder. Furthermore, I'm betting it wouldn't take much to be able to have all cars be capable of bursting data through some sort of cell link, etc and you would never know it. It's actually kind of scary what they can and are doing.
BoostedAWD...I'm surprised that Nissan doesn't say anything about this. But I didn't see anything about it in my Acura manual either. Ford takes a different approach. The owner's manuals on my old Lincoln LS and on my Cobra clearly state the data recording is there and who can access it.
BoostedAWD...I'm surprised that Nissan doesn't say anything about this. But I didn't see anything about it in my Acura manual either. Ford takes a different approach. The owner's manuals on my old Lincoln LS and on my Cobra clearly state the data recording is there and who can access it.
08-10-2006, 09:52 AM
#19
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by CobraGuy
Siggy...right now, the data is not being sent via satellite. It's being sent through the OnStar connection. If you don't have that feature on your vehicle, it can't be sent. But there is definitely an abundance of information stored on the data recorder. Furthermore, I'm betting it wouldn't take much to be able to have all cars be capable of bursting data through some sort of cell link, etc and you would never know it. It's actually kind of scary what they can and are doing.
BoostedAWD...I'm surprised that Nissan doesn't say anything about this. But I didn't see anything about it in my Acura manual either. Ford takes a different approach. The owner's manuals on my old Lincoln LS and on my Cobra clearly state the data recording is there and who can access it.
BoostedAWD...I'm surprised that Nissan doesn't say anything about this. But I didn't see anything about it in my Acura manual either. Ford takes a different approach. The owner's manuals on my old Lincoln LS and on my Cobra clearly state the data recording is there and who can access it.
Ya, that makes sense. I'm still worried by my GPS data calculation. With the prices dropping on flash memory faster than the stock market did after 9/11. It's just a matter of time before they implement something. With the numbers I ran, they could replay the ENTIRE ownership of your vehicle. Everywhere you went, speed, time... at a cost to them of less than $1
08-10-2006, 12:33 PM
#20
Instructor
I am curious about the accuracy of this data from the "black boxes" especially if it is used in court proceedings. Considering that cops cars have to have certified speedometers that are regularly calibrated if they are going to issue tickets by pacing (well, they used to, maybe this has changed), is a black box certified to be accurate? They might be valuable tools for research, accident reconstruction, etc. but if you start charging people based on the data on them, it would seem that they would have to be protected from interference, tampering, etc. etc.
08-10-2006, 12:54 PM
#21
Ryan Christopher
Originally Posted by Shark
Call me paranoid, but this was a factor in my decision not to get a navi system.
08-10-2006, 01:05 PM
#22
Can You Feel It?
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So my question (similiar to 93SHOcar) is there a way to reset the box....so let say that I bought my car used and the person who had it before I did may drive excessive speed. then for some reason I end up in court and they use that information against me...cause when you pay money to get information about a used car (carfax.com) they normally don't list these things.... 
08-10-2006, 02:20 PM
#23
Moderator Alumnus
Originally Posted by Black_05_TL_6SP
Do you own a cell phone? If so big brother is already tracking you. After 9-11 all cell phones where required to have GPS tracking ability. So whether or not you got the nav unit in the car makes no difference. You don't even need to be on the phone for them to track it. So if you think you are paranoid enough, think again!! At this point I really don't care, if they want to track me, so be it. Every time you use your debit card, credit card and surf the web, there is some one out there collecting that information and data warehousing it. Just remember that.
They do not track and store everyones GPS data from their phone. It would cost any telco a TON of $$ to do that. And the govt. isn't going to pay for that.
You *can* disable your GPS receiver in your phone. This will stop them from being able to query the phone remotely. However it will get re-enabled when you dial 911. Because all phones go into a special mode when you dial 911.
I know this for fact, I worked for Sprint for 7 years at their world headquaters. And I worked in the division that deployed and maintained all of the data infrastructure. We ran the LBS (location based services) system. The system that converts the cell GPS data into real world GPS cordinates.
To add PCS phones specifically do not have regular plain jane GPS receivers in them like you get in a garmin handheld. They use the cell towers to determine your position, not the GPS satellites up in the sky. Then on-deman that cell tower data is sent to a LBS system that converts it into real world GPS cordinates. Why did they do this? because they can still triangulate your position from a cell tower when your inside a structure, GPS signals from the staellites are even hard to aquire sitting in side of a car without an external antenna.
So it's not as bad as your thinking...
Now could they look at their logs and see what cell tower you last showed up on? maybe, if it wasn't many days ago.
08-10-2006, 02:25 PM
#24
Booya
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Are you reffering to the car sending GPS data back up to the satellite? if so that won't happen anytime soon, well, without a big nasty antenna on the roof.
Assuming your XM receiver has the: ReceiverID(xmID).
Your XM receiver could get the: Location (X,Y)
from the navi at every instance of Time (mm:dd:yyy:hh:mm:ss.sss-UTC)
Hypthetically, how difficult would it be for your receiver to continuously Send
ReceiverID(), Location(), Time() or RILT
back to the XM satellite? Now I know this would be tough without a big dish on the top of your car, or maybe through the nationwide GSM / LBS based cellular networks to big brother !? Already the cellular networks can track down your cell phone to within a feet of where you are standing using the method of 'triangulation'. This would be a similiar application, except that the car could now be tracked in real-time without having to download data from the EDR.
Again, this is just an hypothesis.
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Or are you referring to the car storing the GPS travel information long term? Yes, THAT would piss me off. And really it wouldn't require a lot of storage space. Anyone who has ever seen the raw GPS serial data output standard NMEA format (I have many times) can tell you it'd would be trivial to store months of data in a small 1GB flash card, possibly many years with compression.
...
...
...
7MB!!!!! That 2GB text file was reduced down to 7MB!
Scary! So a 32MB SD card could in theory hold 4 years of 24/7 driving data at a sampling rate of 1 second. Flash memory is so cheap these days it scares me what they can do. In bulk I bet you can get 32MB cards for $1 each, if even.
...
...
...
7MB!!!!! That 2GB text file was reduced down to 7MB!
Scary! So a 32MB SD card could in theory hold 4 years of 24/7 driving data at a sampling rate of 1 second. Flash memory is so cheap these days it scares me what they can do. In bulk I bet you can get 32MB cards for $1 each, if even.
08-10-2006, 02:27 PM
#25
Booya
Originally Posted by dipkat
Well if you have GPS and XM, theoretically you could be tracked easily if wanted
Assuming your XM receiver has the: ReceiverID(xmID).
Your XM receiver could get the: Location (X,Y)
from the navi at every instance of Time (mm:dd:yyy:hh:mm:ss.sss-UTC)
Hypthetically, how difficult would it be for your receiver to continuously Send
ReceiverID(), Location(), Time() or RILT
back to the XM satellite? Now I know this would be tough without a big dish on the top of your car, or maybe through the nationwide GSM / LBS based cellular networks to big brother !? Already the cellular networks can track down your cell phone to within a feet of where you are standing using the method of 'triangulation'. This would be a similiar application, except that the car could now be tracked in real-time without having to download data from the EDR.
Again, this is just an hypothesis.
Yep. That is very logical.
Assuming your XM receiver has the: ReceiverID(xmID).
Your XM receiver could get the: Location (X,Y)
from the navi at every instance of Time (mm:dd:yyy:hh:mm:ss.sss-UTC)
Hypthetically, how difficult would it be for your receiver to continuously Send
ReceiverID(), Location(), Time() or RILT
back to the XM satellite? Now I know this would be tough without a big dish on the top of your car, or maybe through the nationwide GSM / LBS based cellular networks to big brother !? Already the cellular networks can track down your cell phone to within a feet of where you are standing using the method of 'triangulation'. This would be a similiar application, except that the car could now be tracked in real-time without having to download data from the EDR.
Again, this is just an hypothesis.
Yep. That is very logical.
08-10-2006, 04:26 PM
#26
Registered Member
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Are you reffering to the car sending GPS data back up to the satellite? if so that won't happen anytime soon, well, without a big nasty antenna on the roof.
Or are you referring to the car storing the GPS travel information long term? Yes, THAT would piss me off. And really it wouldn't require a lot of storage space. Anyone who has ever seen the raw GPS serial data output standard NMEA format (I have many times) can tell you it'd would be trivial to store months of data in a small 1GB flash card, possibly many years with compression.
As an example here's one data point... this shows location. velocity and time:
(this is actually what gets passed back to the navigation software)
This will help explain what your looking at.
So out of sheer morbid curiosity, lets figure you get one of these data points a second. It's 69 bytes of data per line, per second. And remember everything below is simulating driving 24/7!
So
69bytes * 60 seconds * 1440 minutes in a day
(69*60) 1440= 5961600 (6MB roughly for 24 hours of recording)
1 week
5961600*7=41731200 (41MB roughly)
1 month
41731200*4=166924800 (166MB roughly)
1 year
166924800*12=2003097600 (2GB approx)
Ok, so now I'll simluate a large file of that size using NMEA data and apply some compression to it. Compression could easily be done in realtime while DVD unit is storing the data.
Ok, drum roll........ 1 Year of 24/7 driving, recording GPS data every second with compression comes out to be.....
7MB!!!!! That 2GB text file was reduced down to 7MB!
Scary! So a 32MB SD card could in theory hold 4 years of 24/7 driving data at a sampling rate of 1 second. Flash memory is so cheap these days it scares me what they can do. In bulk I bet you can get 32MB cards for $1 each, if even.
Or are you referring to the car storing the GPS travel information long term? Yes, THAT would piss me off. And really it wouldn't require a lot of storage space. Anyone who has ever seen the raw GPS serial data output standard NMEA format (I have many times) can tell you it'd would be trivial to store months of data in a small 1GB flash card, possibly many years with compression.
As an example here's one data point... this shows location. velocity and time:
(this is actually what gets passed back to the navigation software)
Code:
$GPRMC,123519,A,4807.038,N,01131.000,E,022.4,084.4,230394,003.1,W*6A
Code:
RMC Recommended Minimum sentence C 123519 Fix taken at 12:35:19 UTC A Status A=active or V=Void. 4807.038,N Latitude 48 deg 07.038' N 01131.000,E Longitude 11 deg 31.000' E 022.4 Speed over the ground in knots 084.4 Track angle in degrees True 230394 Date - 23rd of March 1994 003.1,W Magnetic Variation *6A The checksum data, always begins with *
So
69bytes * 60 seconds * 1440 minutes in a day
(69*60) 1440= 5961600 (6MB roughly for 24 hours of recording)
1 week
5961600*7=41731200 (41MB roughly)
1 month
41731200*4=166924800 (166MB roughly)
1 year
166924800*12=2003097600 (2GB approx)
Ok, so now I'll simluate a large file of that size using NMEA data and apply some compression to it. Compression could easily be done in realtime while DVD unit is storing the data.
Code:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6060960 Aug 10 08:33 1day -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 252540 Aug 10 08:33 1hour -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4209 Aug 10 08:22 1minute -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 169706880 Aug 10 08:34 1month -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 42426720 Aug 10 08:34 1week -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2036482560 Aug 10 08:34 1year
Code:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6910014 Aug 10 08:34 1year.gz
Scary! So a 32MB SD card could in theory hold 4 years of 24/7 driving data at a sampling rate of 1 second. Flash memory is so cheap these days it scares me what they can do. In bulk I bet you can get 32MB cards for $1 each, if even.
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