HONDARC51

I decided to check on this website because a few of the clients I have helped suggested I do so. I have been the Sales Manager at Keyes Acura for almost 6 years and I welcome any member to call me directly at my office at 818-907-4103. Inventory levels on the new 2004 Tl have become much better lately. Most colors are available. Navigation Tl's are a little harder to find currently but in the next few months that should get better as well. So why am I here tonight leaving this message..One. I have found over the years that I may not sell everyone a car but most of the dealers will be pretty close no matter where you go if you are educated on the market and I am open to answer questions even if I do not get the sale. 2) I have found recently that if I have the color and model I can usually make the deal anyway. and 3) we have the biggest inventory so just out of the amount of product we get I can fit most offers. To answer an earlier post dealers are not punished for discounting the cars. and our allocation is not based on that. Most Manufacturers have a turn and earn policy. (more you sell more you get) (I have seen many post's in here about who the biggest volume dealer is in LA)..Truth.. we are..have been 3 years in a row. all a client has to do is call American Honda to find that out. 3 years to be exact. and also a Precision Team Dealer 2 Years running (almost 3 should be official by end of Dec 2003) . So consider this an invitation to see if I can be competitive. or consider this to call me to ask me a question about current programs that us "dealer guys" can offer you. Bottom line all the information you can arm yourself with as a consumer will only help you make your buying decision.. Dan at Keyes Acura or dcarlton@keyescars.com and by the way I like the earlier post..but to clear it up a little I am almost 6 foot..so not short..but I have no comeback for the slightly balding statement..until next time Dan

daikon38

I'm just curious. I've been primarily negotiating with dealers through emails, and have been offered discounts to the '04 TL w/ Navi in, what seems as the hottest color, Anthracite.

What is the true current market value of this vehicle?

AND

Given the dealer invoice for this particular vehicle, what's a good deal and what is not (i.e. how much off MSRP)?

Thanks!

EmuMessenger

It seems like everywhere there is more than one local dealer $750+ off MSRP is not out of lne.

neuronbob

Except in cities where there's only one or two. In that circumstance, to push for a good deal, you have to travel.

dbehrens

It seems dan has posted his message in several threads on this site. I am a member of Acuramdx.org and they have a dealer rating for Keyes and the rating is not very good. It sould like Keyes is having a fight with another dealer, 101 acura?

Dan, what are you willing to offer for a TL-auto Non Nav in stock? These seem to be the easiest to find and other dealers are already discounting 1-1.5K. PM me if you do not want to post.

nickpoore

FWIW:

I went into Keys last week and the sales guy was very unhelpful.

I say Dan's post, and emailed/called him directly.
I went into the dealership yesterday (Sunday) and met with Dan. What a difference. Dan was knowledgable, helpful and offered me a flat-rate price right off of the bat. Dan is what a car sales guy should be - helpful, honest and prepared to help.

They don't currently have the car that I am looking for, but they have promised to give me a call when one is scheduled for delivery.

I will keep everyone posted on how these dealings go.

-=Nick=-

acuraddict

I concur about Dan at Keyes. He's a stand up guy, and I've only had great experiences with everyone at Keyes. I've bought four of my seven Acuras from them, and the only reason I didn't buy the others from them was availability.

keyes is number one for a reason...for many reasons. Service department is also fantastic...talk to Josh or Mike in service.

HONDARC51

dbehrens

To answer your post. The Acura MDX site became a site that some of the other local dealerships used to just trash talk. If you look closely at the post you will see they are mostly from the same person. bottom line no one likes the dealer that is the biggest in any said market. All I can say is I personally try to be a little more understanding to the knowledgable buyer than I think most other car guys do. Let's be frank I am a salesman I am paid to make a profit. some do not like that fact. I try to be upfront with most of the clients I deal with. No one is perfect do I not have the best deal sometimes..of course. But most of the time I think I can make the deal. Not to mention a dealer should be rated on his survey ratings with the manufacturer. ( not a website post) who is more likely to post a comment a happy client or an upset one. These websites are good but please find out for yourself. like all things some are good and some are bad. again call Acura they will validate that we are a precision team dealer. ( ask how many of the other local guys are) The problem lately has been SUPPLY..and that of course is out of my control.
I think in general most dealers in LA are good. might you have a bad experience..yes might you have a good one..yes I was off today but I checked my voicemail at the office and noticed a few calls from TL forum members will call you all back during the day. I may not be able to get all the cars because of the produce shortage..but I am willing to attempt. have a good night Dan

HONDARC51

nickpoore


Was nice to talk to you the other day as well. It is hard for me to deal one on one all the time. As you could see I am usually running around. But if you ask for me directly when you come in I will make a point of meeting you personally. I will call you as soon as the vehicle we talked about becomes available. (side note) Because of the shortage of certain TL's I am sure I may sometimes be beaten to the punch by someone else. But I will make every effort to get one first. basically no matter what inventory the dealers get out here in LA they will sell them all. not a bad thing I suppose. But if you are able to get a break on a good priced for the value car..you are ahead of the game. nickpoore call me in my office after 11 tomorrow I have to ask you a question about something anyway..

HONDARC51

For earlier post..If you get between 750 and 1000 off a TL right now you have a good deal, I have heard of the higher discounts from a select few..But most of the time it is just someone giving a client a low ball because he knows he is shopping him all over the place. I do not follow the low ball rull. I give a price and if it works for the client then so be it. as stated all through this site...IF you find the car you want in the color you like...Buy it. is it really worth driving all over the place to save 200. That has always puzzled me..just the pure time wasted in driving all over to save a few hundred sounds like a waste. I know I am the car guy...But if you find someone that you like dealing with and he is in the realm of the market on the car..give him the deal. trust me down the line if you picked the right salesman he will more than make up for it over time if you ever have a problem. Right now the supply does not really fit the demand..we are not the only brand that has that problom..ie BMW..Mercedes..Lexus if the product is good sales are good bottom line.

fuque

Well, don't keep us in suspense! How much did he offer to sell for?

So what you're saying is, it really is fun to buy a car at Keyes Keyes Keyes, Keyes on Van Nuys?

nickpoore

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fuque
[B]Well, don't keep us in suspense! How much did he offer to sell for?
I'm not one to kiss and tell...
Dan is free to mention the price, but I don't think it is my place to do so.
I will say that I have seen ONE better price posted on this forum, so that should give you a rough ballpark figure.

Lastly; anyone who has met Dan - do you think he's short or what!
(Sorry Dan, couldn't resist a quick dig at your MASSIVE physique..)

-=Nick=-

Donte99TL

Dan noticed your name is hondaRC51? Do you ride one. I have 2001 R1. What do you think of the new CBR 1000?

HONDARC51

Yes I just bought the honda rc51. have not seen the 1000 but heard great things about it. Dan

HONDARC51

Ok first guy who says I am tall..will get a FEW FREE OIL CHANGES. LOL

nickpoore

Hey, I said you had a MASSIVE PHYSIQUE - does that count?

HONDARC51

I had a few messages on my voicemail that I was unable to hear the phone numbers on. my voicemail was not working right until today. So if I have failed to call anyone back..please try me again. I will be in the office until 9PM tonight 818-907-4103. Thanks Dan

Animate

Dan--
First of all, my compliments for being one of the few Acura sales folks willing to step up to the plate and address us directly.
As a prospective LA TL owner (who just may buy from you), I have an important question: What do you know about the persistent vibration problems articulated by so many people in these forums? Is your dealership aware of the issue? Is Acura? What, if anything, is being done to address and/or identify this problem? Thanks for your time.

ColdFusionTL

Keyes is a good dealer and most of the people there are nice except for Preston..that one sales manager. He gives too much attitude and he's very sarcastic with what he says. He sort of makes you feel inferior. That is my main reason for not buying the new TL from Keyes. Dan, you should tell him to stop being such a b*tch

HONDARC51

I myself have not heard anything about the vibration you mention. But I will check with the guys in service and see if they have seen any with that issue. So far the car seems to be more than good and no problems so far. The bluetooth on the phone is a little technoligically advanced..but once you set it up it works great..as for the other post about Prassan..he is a team manager I will chat with him about having a bigger smile in the future. Usually he is fine. But like I said before any TL forum members feel free to call me directly. I am usually in the office from 12-9 most days. Happy thanksgiving guys..and gals. Dan

HONDARC51

Thought I would update the forum. I was allocated 2 6 speed high performance tire Navigation TL's Today. one Silver and one Anthracite. I also was allocated a Black on Black 6 speed Navi non high performance tire TL as well. and last but not least a Silver/Ebony 6 speed high performance tire with no navigation. They will sell over the weekend as well but I thought I would give you all a heads up if anyone interested. I will be in tonight(friday) until 9PM and will be in the office from 12-9 Sat and 9:45-6 on Sunday The paperwork can be signed and the cars will physically hit the lot within 7-12 days. Dan forgot I also have a non navi 6 speed in black/black.

automophile

We TRIED tobuy our TSX from Keyes. The salesman was VERY nice and VERY helpful, but when we sat down to make the deal, the "closer" that came in was very unpleasant and jacked us around A LOT.

I had all the numbers - Invoice cost, TMV, Money Factors, etc., and a lease calculator program for my PDA to give the exact payment details. We told them EXACTLY what we were willing to pay. Mr. Closer came back with a RIDICULOUS high number. Then the usual back and forth. Finally, he threw the paper on the table and said "THIS is our FINAL offer". We walked.

THEN after we out the door, they came after us, and said "OK OK we will give you your price", but we had had it with them. I then emailed all the other local dealers, and got a very fast response from William at Sierra Acura. His quote showed us that we were finally getting the sales price we wanted from Keyes, they were still gouging us on the interest! BOTH deals were through Honda of America, so they both had access to the same lease rates.

William faxed me their offer, and when we went expecting the worst again, instead we got the Royal treatment, and drove the TSX out in 30 minutes. What a great experience.

After the TERRIBLE service I got from Keyes Mazda with my Millenia, and the shafting from Keyes Acura, we won't even go to them for service for our TSX and TL. the NICE salesman doesn't make the final experience.

Those who bought from Keyes may still be getting screwed on the interest.

HONDARC51

Just because at the current time your deal was not accepted does not mean you have to bash the dealer. You have the option to buy or decline and the dealer has the option to decline your deal as well. I am glad you got the price you wanted. here is the bottom line you found a better deal..good for you. I have stated many times that any "deal" is beatable. and from the sounds of it you must have given your offer and were told that we could not do it and then after giving our offer to another dealer they matched it. (does not take that much talent to match a deal if the client openly gives that information to the other dealer) the other dealer decided to do it. again congrats..I just have a problem with stuff being talked about dealers because they had a slightly higher deal. that is called "life" Be happy that you got the deal you got. We all handle things in a different fashion but I am not one to just go on a board and say stuff just due to price. lets be frank no matter where you go the price will be higher or lower..your job as a customer is to get your best deal..sounds like you did. no hard feelings but as for the post it sounds like you just want to advertise you got a better deal. point made.. Sounds to me as well that this started with mazda and some history is involved..Weekly the same thing happens where I am the dealer on the other end of the pole and I earn the deal..this time the pendulum went the other way. good news maybe it will be on the way back. Dan

automophile

You missed the point. Keyes was screwing us on the interest, not the price. When they finally agreed to our FAIR price, they had upped the interest rate!

If we hadn't checked with a more honest dealer, we would have been paying a higher payment for years! There is no justification for this.

acuraddict

automophile, you may want to think about slandering Keyes on this website. People can be sued for things like that.

Keyes is a fantastic dealer. Dan is a very sharp guy, and I have bought four cars from Keyes Acura. What he said is true and honest in regards to every dealer making better deals to get a sale. Paradoxically, you will find that every dealer makes some killings of customers and then with others they have to take it in the shorts to get a sale. I'm sure that the dealer who you got such a great deal from will do much better for themselves on the next car they move.

The bottom line for me regarding Keyes is that I know I don't get the absolute best deal from them out of the shute, and I realize that the more homework I do, and time I spend price shopping, the better the deal I ulitimately get. For me, Keyes has always gone the extra mile when I need something fixed, or when I need a loaner car, or when Acura needs to be pressured to do what I need in an extenuating circumstance. I've got a relationship with several people at keyes, and they always come through for me whenever I need them to. But that doesn't mean I can just walk in there and expect them to simply give me the best deal in town just because they know me...that would be a bit naive on my part. They didn't get to be so huge and their top sales guys aren't making six figures by offering the best deal to every customer. Its all a game. I don't like it, but I don't mind playing it every few years.

kinggeorge

Dan seems to be a reasonable guy and a very honest man...i have not bought a car from him as of yet but i did talk to him on the phone and seems to be a straight forward guy with no B.S.

with that said Dan i'm still waiting on that Anthracite/Ebony AT Navi TL you promised me.....

George A.

VTEC=happiness

Just picked up my TL today...all thanks to Dan. Dan is a stand up guy and Keys is a first rate dealer. I got this car to replace my '01 CL Type S, and its a huge step up. From the second I walked in, I dealt directly with Dan, and he was straight up the entire time. He welcomed me to shop around anywhere I wanted, but made it clear he was gonna take care of me. Anyway, the car is awesome so far, and I can't wait to get it rimmed up.

Any suggestions on rims??

Also, anyone having any squeaking comming from either under or behind the driver's seat??

Thanks so much Dan, and thanks to Keys for hooking up a really great car and a good deal.

Formula 350

Acuraddict,

You might want to look up what slander is....

If you tell the truth, it is NOT slander. I did not see anything in his post that would seem to be a lie. He told his experience at the dealership.

Everybody has a story about how some dealership tried to screw them in one way or another. It is the way car dealerships are for some reason. However, there are some that are MOSTLY good. I have no experience with Keyes, but I would not think that there are a few people in the dealership that act like what we think are 'normal' jerk car people. Every dealer has bad people somewhere. It is just how many and is it at a higher level.

HacksawHilliard

Very good points made here. We all need to remember that the art of negotiation is simply that. Each party is trying to get the best deal possible for themselves. Dealers are not in the business of giving away autos; they are in business to make money and as much of it as they can. It is impossible for the dealer to screw their customers. Why? Because the customer is the one who signs on the dotted line accepting the deal offered.

I dealt with two local Acura Dealers when I bought my TL. I had an '03 BMW 330i trade-in plus cash, pretty straight forward you would think. The first dealer made a ridiculously low trade in offer and would not budge. We're talking $6,000 difference between dealers here. I even told them that I was working with another dealer across town and the numbers they had given me. They just looked at me and said if they were willing to sell the TL for that price, to go ahead and take it. I just smiled and said thankyou and got up and left. I didn't take it personally at all. The other dealer worked with me and gave me the deal I wanted. The first dealer called me back a few day later and asked if I had bought the car. I just so happened to completing the final paperwork at the time when they called. I said yes and gave them the final numbers. They realized they lost a deal and I'm sure they used it as a learning experience.

HONDARC51

I agree. How much do they want your trade over the other guy. I like your thoughts concerning your deal. It should never be personal concerning the numbers. We offer...you as the client offer and we both have the optiong to decline or accept. Like I stated earlier it goes back and forth between dealers..at the end we all sell cars and people drive them. I tend to think I get more than I miss. If all clients had your shopping habits it would be more pleasant to buy and sell for both parties. Over the years I have lost a deal to a client to another dealer and then ended up getting them back the next time. Usually they like you were pleasant and we at least stayed friends over the years and they were willing to try us again. I just from a manager stand point have a problem with people that start throwing insults when you cannot make the deal they want...if you cannot get the deal try somewhere else..just be nice...it is always more pleasant and you tend to get better treatment..bottom line you will be treated as you treat others. The dealer that wants to make the least profit (will change daily) will earn your business..until next time Dan

HONDARC51

Glad to see you are enjoying the car. Was nice to met you and your family as well. great conversation. Thanks for giving me the shot at the deal. and the nice words



As for the earlier post. making a profit on interest is not a "rip-off" it is done daily..on house mortgages and everything else you use..bank accounts with a fee..etc.. so to go on the net and say you got "screwed because a certain dealer charged and made some interest in just lame.. NEWS FLASH..all dealers and even private banks make money on loaning money..is it dishonest. NO you borrow you have to pay.Again you got a better deal..enoy it and stop blaming others for trying to make a profit. I have a certain idea that you get payed for your work...I would assume that the company you work for makes a profit or they could not pay you?? am I correct. Dan

automophile

thanks formula 350. TRUTH is not SLANDER.

Of COURSE we could go elsewhere and did, but it was by luck this time.

The issue is that the BEST interest rate is not knowable to the buyer as easily as costs, holdback, etc. How can you know you are getting the best rate? Call Honda America and ask them? It's not that easy. Lease Rates are even harder to ascertain.

Recently I read that it is not uncommon for car dealers to pump up interest rates as much as 5% to unwary buyers! Profit in the pocket!

Sorry - ALL of Keyes dealers are out of our book forever. The rest of you - be prepared when you shop!

Formula 350

Dan,

I work at a bank and guess what, banks get accused of 'ripping off' customers all the time with fees, high interest rates etc. I do not have a problem with that, it is the way they feel. I think the person should have said 'thank you very much, but I can get a better rate at *****' and still bought the car from you if the price was right.

What I do not like about the experience is when they say 'list price and nothing less' when you can show that others are selling up to $1200 below list. THEN talk like they are doing you a favor selling you the car. I just leave. Honda dealers were famous for doing that years ago.

My experince was 'mild' selling after I decided to buy. I did have a decent experience and hope that the car will be as good as it seems.

This is not a knock on you as I have never dealt with you, but a general discussion on how most car salemen work.

And by the way, I have done tax returns on a owner of a car dealership and they are NOT hurting one bit......

drising

Too much whining going on in this thread. Here's my $.02........

I learned a lesson from watching The Brady Bunch when my age was still in single digits...."caveat emptor" --"buyer beware".

The car buying experience has been unpleasant for years. The complaints found here aren't new. As the gentleman from Keyes pointed out, the dealer willing to make the least amount of profit will get the sale. In an effort to boost sales, GM launched the Saturn brand with "no haggle" pricing. Consumer satisfaction scores with early Saturn owners pointed to the pricing scheme as the primary reason for considering a Saturn.

For the rest of us it's about having as much information as possible to be in a better negotiating position. Knowledge really is power. The facts are out their; it's up to the buyer to uncover them. There are numerous resources to uncover the "hidden" or "true" costs. Consumer reports provides pricing info, including MSRP, Dealer Invoice, and even holdbacks. Intellichoice provides a monthly update of incentives, by manufacturer that includes consumer rebates, dealer rebates, and financing discounts. Authors like Remar Sutton have made millions educating and informing consumers on the dynamics of the car buying experience.

In summary, if a buyer isn't willing to invest the time to enter the dealership equipped with knowledge, they can't expect a dealer to roll over. If a buyer isn't satisfied with the salesperson (there is no excuse for rudeness), they should feel empowered to work directly with the sales manager. If that's not satisfactory, manufacturers have multiple dealerships within a trade area. Why do you suppose they do that????

Am I correct in my beliefs? Who knows. I can tell you that I recently purchased an '04 TL AT/Nav for $1,000 under MSRP. Both the dealer and I were happy with the transaction.

Now then, can we move along?

HONDARC51

Stated perfectly. I agree and all I have to say is I have always tried to be polite whether I made the deal or not. That is all I ask for in return. I joined the TL forum to just give the members a chance to deal directly with a Manager . I am not on the "floor". All points made here are valid. I also am open to anyone who has had a problem to call me directly. 818-907-4103.
It is also good to get feedback from forums from my side because it makes it a little easier for me to understand the view of the shopper. at least that should say something for my willingness to adapt. I have already sold a few cars to TL forum Members (thanks accuraddict) and have found if you deal direct I can make it work. I am unable obviously to handle all clients one on one but to the forum members I am sure I can handle it..Dan

acuraddict

You're welcome Dan. What goes around comes around.

HONDARC51

The issue is that the BEST interest rate is not knowable to the buyer as easily as costs, holdback, etc. How can you know you are getting the best rate? Call Honda America and ask them? It's not that easy. Lease Rates are even harder to ascertain.

Recently I read that it is not uncommon for car dealers to pump up interest rates as much as 5% to unwary buyers! Profit in the pocket!


JUST SO WE CLEAR THIS AND END THIS ISSUE ONCE AND FOR ALL. THEIR IS NO SUCH THING AS A BEST RATE. WHAT IS THE BEST TODAY IS NOT THE BEST TOMORROW..JUST SO IT IS ALSO CLEAR AMERICAN HONDA ONLY ALLOWS A 2 POINT INCREASE ON THE RATE. OTHER BANKS DO ALLOW MORE. THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT HOLDBACK AND ALL THAT WHY IS THAT EVEN RELEVANT. THAT IS DEALER MONEY THAT HE EITHER GIVES ( MOST DO NOT) OR TAKES. I WILL DROP THIS ISSUE BUT THIS BUSINESS IS NOT A NON PROFIT FACILITY. BIG EXPENSES ARE INCLUDED..FLOOR PLAN..PAYING EMPLOYEES..INSURANCE..PAYING FLOOR PLAN (YES WE PAY INTEREST ON THE CARS ON THE LOT AS WELL) TO NAME JUST A FEW. AGAIN BOTTOM LINE SHOP FOR THE BEST PRICE..YOU AS THE CUSTOMER TRULY HOLD ALL THE CARDS..FROM MY SIDE I KNOW I USUALLY HAVE THE BETTER DEAL FOR THE CLIENT. MY SALES PROVE IT. TO YOU AUTOMOPHILE I WOULD LOVE TO TALK WITH YOU ON THE PHONE I AM SURE YOU ARE A DECENT PERSON..SO AM I. I WISH I HAD THE CHANCE TO DEAL WITH YOU ONE ON ONE WHEN YOU GOT YOUR CAR..NEXT TIME MAYBE YOU WILL GIVE ME A CHANCE AND I CAN EARN YOUR FAITH BACK IN OUR STORE..YOUR IMPUT HAS BEEN APPRECIATED AND I AM ALWAYS OPEN TO LEARN AND ADAPT. I HAVE BEEN HERE 6 YEARS I AM SURE I WILL BE AROUND YOUR NEXT TIME YOU NEED A NEW CAR. CONSIDER IT. DAN

kinggeorge

i think everyone gets frustrated when the get jacked and don't get a deal they like but it's not the dealers fault.....especially in Los Angeles where there are something like 15 dealers in a 60mile radius. Shop around if you feel your not getting a good deal. But Dan seems to be a great guy that's will to bend with the times and wants to earn our trust....so give him a chance and don't hold grudges.

Formula 350

Dan,

Again, not a pox on you, but your industry..

Most industries have a retail value for an item. If it is in short supply they do not jack up the price. Car people say, this car is in HIGH demand and you must pay me $2,000 more than list for it. Then the next guy comes in and might get it for list. A month later someone gets it for $1,000 under. Why? Because car dealers do not act like other businesses.

Then, they try and sell items to you at a 50 to 75% markup. Paint protection, cloth protection, tire inspection, extended warrenty.

And finally they try and charge the highest interest rate they can.

So, if you do not know what you are doing, you can get 'screwed' in a lot of ways. There is some idiot on the RX8 forum who paid $10,000 over list, $3,000 for 'special' tires etc. Yes it is his fault for doing so, but it is because of the greed of the car dealership that we do not like in this example. If they had been 'fair' with him it would have sold the car to him for a lot less.

Dealerships are NOT hurting. Their profit margin is in the 30 to 40% range. That is why they can afford to buy sport teams etc.

HONDARC51

I know you are making a comment about the industry. (so no offense taken) I agree with you. I have never personally sold an Acura for over MSRP. years ago when the first NSX came out it was done but before my time. I recently bought a Corvette Z06 in yellow. the car was in such limited supply (Yellow) that I paid "retail" myself. A few of the guys on this forum know me and they will agree that I pay retail for all the cars I buy. I consider it bad charma to myself if I work the other dealers real hard. I do not recommend this way for all of you to buy a car but for me I am in the business and I do not have a problem with the dealer making the profit. But that is me.. ( single guys with no kids can be stupid like that). I must say though that the local dealer that I buy my corvette from always treats me above average because they know I pay all the money so in some ways I do get something back. and trust me if I ever have a problem they will get the factory involved to help me. Not just beacuse I am in the business but because I have bought 4 or 5 cars from them and we have a relationship built. the problem with some manufacturers and dealers is they have such a huge market in LA that when they get a real rare car..example Audi RS6..Mercedes SLR..chevrolet SSR they tend to push up the price because that "gotta have it client will pay" is it right probably not but if you were the dealer what would you do? Charging over MSRP I personally do not agree with..But in some instances if you only get 10 a month I can understand. I put it in relationship to a diamond..if it is a rare one it will go for all the money..if it is one of many you can get a deal. I have been in this line of work a long time I am 34 so I am "the next generation" some of the old school tactics are slowly being disolved..I have seen a major change even in the last 5 years. When I started their was no "Internet" that changed the auto industry alot. My stance treat others as they treat you..I have always found that I will bend over backwards for someone who is "nice" alot of clients come in with the gloves up..when you first approach a car guy give him a chance..if he blows it then start jabbing him..but give him a chance..We are normal people just like you.but do not come in ready to fight..come in loaded with information let the guy know you are informed and make your best deal.That way of doing things in life or in buying a car always has a better success rate. Dan