First post here after trying to read as much as possible. The lease is up on my current car, 2002 Maxima GLE, in February. I figured now was a good time to start looking. At this point there are 3 candidates. Whatever I get will be AT w/NAVI.

I've had good service from my Maxima so that's one possibility. I haven't driven the current model yet but my main concern is price. The 2002 was a major price increase from the '98 I had before and now the 2005 is even more of an increase. But Nissan dealers are always willing to deal and I'm thinking I can probably get it for $31.5K.

Second choice was the Infiniti G35X. I already know from reading how hated this car is around here Living in Chicago the Infiniti has never appealed to me because of the RWD. I know it handles better and it's the way a 'DRIVER'S' car should be. But I'm old and I remember all too well what RWD is like in the snow. The addition of AWD makes this my first choice.

At least it was my first choice. When I mentioned my disdain for RWD over at Fresh Alloy it was suggested that I look at the TL. Now maybe they just didn't like me and figued if I bought a TL I wouldn't be back there So I test drove the TL since the Acura dealer was only about a half mile away from the Infiniti dealer.

I was pretty impressed with the TL but my salesman was pretty new at selling cars and couldn't really answer all my questions. Also, since I was still a few months away from my lease end, they didn't really want to commit to a price. I didn't get the impression that they were really in a dealing mood.

I then went to the Infiniti dealer. Styling is really a matter of personal taste. Personally, of the 3, I like the exterior of the Maxima the best. But I can't really tell on the Infiniti because the 2005 models haven't hit the Chicago area yet. So I test drove the 2004. It's really a much more fun car to drive than the TL. You can read all you want about the HP and torque and compare all the numbers you want. But Nissan has really put a lot of torque into the low end. In my current Maxima that means 3 things. One, off the line it just hauls Two, torque steer is horrendous And three, even with FWD, it's a bear in the snow because of all that power.

But the AWD fixes all those issues. The 2005 is supposed to have even more power but the 2004 I drove was really a perfect 'DRIVER'S' car. Handled great, accellerated great and has a nice exhaust sound. But the interior is just an abomination. The dashboard looks like something you'd find in a Cavalier. My 2002 Maxima has a nicer interior. The TL blows both of them away. The 2005 Infiniti is supposed to have a slightly nicer interior, but I'm not sure 'SLIGHTLY' is going to make a difference. But I will wait until I drive one before making my final decision.

So right now I'm leaning towards the TL. While performance is important, most of my driving is boring cruising on interstates and sitting around in heavy traffic. If I lived in the country I'd be hard pressed to not buy the Infiniti. But for an urban vehicle the TL just seems more refined.

OK, so that was long, and probably boring. But let's get on to the questions I have. First the Navi system. I've seen off-handed references but no real confirmation about how much you can do while driving. My Maxima will allow you to do a few things but the majority if the functions are locked out if you're moving. I'm able to choose pre-programmed destinations if they are on the first page of the display (I think the number is 8). But it won't let me scroll past that. I can use the quick stop feature to find the nearest restaurant, ATM, gas station, hospital and one user defined category. But the rest of the categories are locked out. And I can't do anything as far as fully programmed destinations. So the question is, how much can you do in the TL while you're driving?

Also regarding Navigation, I'm wondering about the actual coverage and concerned about some things I've read regarding routing. While my Maxima doesn't always give the absolute most efficient route, it will always get me where I'm going. Reading here though about people being routed over open bodies of water has me kind of worried. The question, I guess, is just how prevelant is this type of problem? Is that routing that bad that often?

And about coverage, just how good is the street level coverage. Here in Chicago my local area is no problem. I have street level coverage all the way from Milwaukee down to Gary. But when visiting friends around Kalamazoo MI it's just major roads. So how is the coverage in these type of areas?

My next question involves the differences between the '04 and '05 models. I know that the feature and styling differences are almost zero. But I've read about some major issues like drivetrain vibration and interior problems in the '04. It sounds like they have been fixed in the '05 models. And since there are very few '04s left and they don't seem really motivated to give great pricing, I'm thinking of just sticking to the '05. So I'm interested to hear any opinions on the '04 vs '05 issue.

Pricing is the big issue. I know it's going to be more than another Maxima. But I think it will be less than the Infiniti. I'm just perplexed by the lack of willingness to sell close to invoice. There is plenty of profit built in to invoice pricing. And some profit is better than no profit.

Anyway, I've sent off requests to 2 dealers in the area for pricing, but despite automated responses telling me I'd get a quote within a few hours, it's been over a full day and no response. My gut feeling is that I won't have to work too hard to get $33.5K. So my negotiating strategy is as follows:

$32K - I'll buy it today
$32.5K - I'll wait till the middle of Dec.
$33K - I'll wait till the middle of Jan.
$33.5K - I'll wait till Feb when my lease is up and buy it from the closest dealer.

I guess there is no real question there other than do you think I'm being unreasonable? But I do have some financing questions. Does anybody know what the current interest rates and money factor numbers are directly from Acura?

OK, final question. I keep seeing mention of a protection package. But I find no details on Edmunds or Kelly for this package. What exactly are you guys talking about?

Well that's a lot. I did say it was long but buying a car isn't an easy decision and shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

Wow man, that's the first time i've seen a post like this...

You really need to learn to write for the web. Its called inverse pyramid concise style

BIG SUBJECT
Smaller subject
even smallest

You should only write exactyl what users will SCAN. people scan on the web, NOT read.

Anyways, im done lecturing you... (please dont write like this anymore) and the fact that you self described it as boring yourself, really turns off users...
you seem like a worry wart, well you should really go test a drive a car to find these things out

"First the Navi system."
It rocks, the screen is large, there are lots of voice commands, you can see visuals to control cd, as well as radio and sound information. some people, like me, have converted it to dvd

" Is that routing that bad that often?"
I dont have any serious prolbmes, but my disc may be a bit outdated. The routes are not always perfect, but it self corrects if you decide to veer. so i would say that happens 10% of the time

"So how is the coverage in these type of areas?"
It really depends on the CD version you have and the changes recently in the street. I would suspec you will be fine, and if you dont want to find a sepcific address (in fear of it being off) i would suggest you choose intersections


"My next question involves the differences between the '04 and '05 models.
seats are a little bit better in 05 to prevent butt prints, and there are some new airbag icons on dash. other than that, no significant changes"


"Well that's a lot. I did say it was long but buying a car isn't an easy decision and shouldn't be taken lightly." Please go test drive the car, that's the best way to learn about this stuff

continue you to post more questions in the writing style I decribed above, and Ill be happy to assist you further.

 

Yea, it was a rambling post. But I thought it was a better avenue than starting 10 different threads. That and the fact that it's 6AM are my excuses

But I thank you for your response. I'm going to have to spend some more time with the Nav system before I make a final decision. I like the screen size and I like the voice integration. But if the coverage and routing isn't as good as the Nissan I just don't know if I'll be able to pull the trigger.

 

It wasnt about starting 10 different posts its about writing effectively, this is the web, not a paperback

Here is how you could of written it

Please help me answer questions about the TL before I purchase it

1: How effective is the navigation, is it accurate?

2: How accurate has the routing been in your expereience?

3: How is the coverage in a granular area, such as chicago suburbs

etc.


by learning to communicate in a way that the receiver will best absorb and understand, your chances of receiving back valuable feedback go up tremendously.

 

In answer to one of your questions. The NAVI is fully functional while driving.

 

lol, you better listen to me, or you get answers like that...

man, hahah


But seriously everyone, try to help him out, he's a noobie,

remember the first time you posted on a bb, im sure you didnt understand all netettiquite...

help him out..

 

I can tell you that I went through some of the same questions when buying my car a month ago. I decided to go with an 04' instead of the 05' based on price. Everything seemed to be the same as an 05'and I haven't had any problems other people have mentioned.

I also live in Chicago and I bought mine from McGrath in Morton Grove. They were nice to deal with and let me take the car out by myself for a test drive. (That allowed me to really play around with the car without worrying about taking up anyone's time)

The navigation system is one of the best features of the car. It doesn't restrict you from doing anything while you are driving(you can add addresses on the move) and always seems to work flawlessly.

 

McGrath is actually the dealer I went to. Like I said, they didn't seem t0o keen on dealing. I'll have to push a little more the next time I deal with them.

 

Ah yes, another Nissan disciple flirting with the dark side. Well, like most here, there was no way I could get through that post of Hut proportion, but I gather you're comparing Infiniti/Nissan/Acura. I can help with this as I came from an '04 Maxima. Here is what happened to THAT:

Of course the car saved my life; I walked away and to this day I have the Nissan emblem mounted on my computer in 'memory' of that poor car. It was a good car. But hands down, the TL is just....better! Nicer interior, less torque steer, nicer gadgets, etc etc. The G35 interior is cramped and the ride is too choppy. Also, the NAV on the Acura is SUPERIOR. Don't even kid yourself for a second. It took me a full minute to enter an address with that stupid little joystick on the Max. Great car, and I loved it, but I can't say I miss it much anymore!

 

Wow, that is a nasty looking Maxima. Glad to hear you came out unharmed.

Funny you mention the joystick on the Nissan NAV. On my 2002 it still has the touch screen. I don't know why they got rid of it.

 

All the cars you mentioned were the same ones I was looking at, along with the Chrysler 300C and BMW 325. I ended up with the TL because of 1) Past experience - I had a 2k that was flawless during the 4-year lease term. 2) Looks - a matter of opinion but I still think the sharpest looking of the bunch. 3) Most of my driving is like yours - either highway or city traffic. In the end, the TL's interior won out over the competition hands down. Great stereo with XM Radio, handsfree phone, and just a nicer look. Since I spend most of my time on the inside anyway, this was the deciding factor for me. Ultimately YOU will have to decide what you will be the most happy with given your own set of priorities for ownership. Best wishes in your search and let us know how it turns out.

 

My only theory is that maybe they were trying to prevent greasy-finger screen syndrome. Too bad it didn't work when I had my Max because people would get in and start touching it anyway, thinking it was like the NAV in other cars they've been in. Greasy paws, gotta love it.

 

Boy, lots of Maxima converts here. That's a good sign.

 

I just bought an '05 TL from McGrath in Westmont. They were actually the only ones in the western burbs that would deal at all.

I also considered the Maxima and the G35. I liked the exterior design of the Maxima (and was probably the most fun to drive) the best but to me, the interior quality and features of the TL just blew away the Maxima and the G35. I also spend most of my time commuting and a bunch of power off the line is sort of wasted on me.

I thought the G35 felt a little cheap for a $30+K car and the Maxima, when you start adding in the options to get to the level of the G35 and the TL was as much or more expensive than any of them. The Nissan dealer in Naperville also put me off with their used car sales approach. I felt dirty just dealing with them.

 

First off, don't pay any attention to these people. When I first came on board, I had questions about the TL and was the current owner of a modified 2002 Altima SE. I was considering cars that ran the guantlet from the Cadillac CTS-V to the new Ford Focus ZX4-ST. Well, when I mentioned the Focus, you'd have thought I'd pissed in a few of the members' beers. I mean, the bias was rank in here. And all I wanted was some information.. my first impression of some of the members on this site was not what you might call positibve.

Now for your quest.

You can do a great deal with the Nav systems and I am still learning it. What I find is that once you get down the basics and have enough knowledge to use the system in your normal routine, you probably don't go much further with it until the need arises. No true for everyone I'm sure, but I suspect a lot f people fall into this mold. If you want to get serious with the Nav, you're better off getting off the road and working through the system. One of the nice things is that you can chose the manner in which you want the Nav to calculate your route to some destination from super highways to back streets. And if you decide to alter your route a little while getting there, the system will first try to get you back on its path and when it senses you have not followed it instructions, it will recalculate the route to match you new direction.

I find the street lever coverage in my area (about 35 miles from Washington, DC) to be excellent. Even some gravel roads are indicated on the screen. And if it doesn't know a road, it will still indicate your path and show "breadcrumbs" (little dots).

I am not up to date on the differences between the '04 and '05 models but I understand they are minor at best.

Since you say that price is a big issue but tend to feel that it is right in there with the competition, then I would let other factors determine your final decision. If aesthetics are really important (of course barring cheap or trashy, this is entirely subjective) this should be a no-brainer. Does the TL look better on the inside and outside than the competition? Personally, aesthetics take a back seat to performance for me. Is the car optioned out at least equal to, or better than, the other cars you're considering? Since this is a performance sedan, does it at least meet your expectations and desires in acceleration, handling, and braking? And finally, how does it fit? What this means is when you get into the car, does everything just "feel right"?

As for the "protection package", if you mean the treatment the dealer offers for the paint and interior, I first decided to go with it, then changed my mind a few days later and cancelled this. My car lives in my garage at home and when I do drive it to work, I park under a covered lot, so this is not an issue with me. And it would not be an issue if the car was exposed more to the elements.

Now for my experiences and opinions. My Anthracite/Ebony/6MT/Nav TL is quickly becoming one of the best and most enjoyable cars I've ever owned. In other words, I love this car and would do it again.

 

I found on Edmunds.com that the 2004 TL has 28 TSB's (technical service bulletins) issued for it. I'm not quite familiar with a TSB. Are these the most common issues customers have reported to dealers when needing service? Seems like 28 is rather high but again it was a redesign year. I'm interested in a 2005 TL. I pasted the link from Edmunds.com.

http://www.edmunds.com/maintenance/r...step2.9.Acura*

 

The "protection package" is a set of dealer-installed accessories consisting of front/rear mats, a trunk tray, and mud flaps. Most dealers seem to be throwing it in free of charge as a purchase incentive. At least that's how I got mine.

 

just get the TL...it's nicer than a maxima and infiniti put together..

 

I recently took a trip through some of the lesser populated areas of Arizona, Colorado and Utah. The coverage of the nav was amazing. In towns I'd never heard of before planning the trip and that you can drive across in under five minutes, the nav had every street and knew about pretty much every motel, gas station, ATM, and local sandwich shop. Was it perfect? No, but the mistakes were relatively few and inconsequential. About the biggest problem was when it kept insisting on displaying only Chinese restaurants when I was really looking for fast food. (The problem turned out to be the way I was asking for the closest restaurant. The voice control is remarkably flexible, but does still have a small learning curve.)

The only other semi-significant problems were when the nav insisted on directing me down a gravel road I didn't want to drive on and another time when it really didn't want me to take a scenic route to my destination. For the former I just drove by the gravel road and after ten minutes of suggesting I make a U-turn the nav finally resigned itself to the fact I wasn't going that way. For the latter I eventually had to program an intermediate stop along the road I wanted to take. But neither of these were really big issues because I could clearly see the alternatives on the map and knew where I wanted to go.

The "breadcrumbs" in non-digitized areas helped a couple times in national parks when the nav system didn't know about some of the spur roads. I was able to easily follow my path back to the main road. Probably saved me several wrong turns and a bit of unnecessary driving. One of the biggest problems with the nav is that I've already come to depend on it and now pay less attention to the turns I'm making because I know the nav is there to bail me out if I get lost.

Anyway, given the street level coverage in very small towns across the southwest, I strongly suspect the coverage in major metro areas should be excellent. The only issue might be brand new development that hasn't made it onto the DVD.

 

Thanks for all the comments folks. They've been a big help. Went to another dealer today that was supposed to give great internet pricing. So he threw in the protection package and quoted me $100 over MSRP. Needless to say, I didn't buy one today. They try to act like they're flying out the door but the way they jump on you when you get within 5 miles of the dealership tells another story.

I've got 3 months, well see what happens.

 

Which dealership did you go to?

I'm looking to buy a 6MT w/navi but i'm from WI so i'm just calling around. Best price given to me was 33,900 at pauly acura.. I'm not sure if i can reduce that much. Any hints on how i could get that lower?? Im' not that good with bargaining!

 

I got mine from Arlington Acura in Palatine a few weeks ago. We were not sure about Navi, but once someone walks you thru the features you will see that it's very cool. Figure 31.5 for non navi and 33.5-33.8 for nav. they don't deal on nav as much.

nav around chicago north side has been pretty good. once or twice the suggested routes were a bit less creative than me. not a lot of blind spots. navi shines on long trips. we leave the screen on the sound so we can jump around the preset xm channels we have (12).

when driving the nav is nice. warns u of turns. gives u like 1/2 mile warning. screen will split and show the turn with blue arrows. easy to see from driver's seat.

tl is much cooler looking than maxima. maxima is chicago is played out. very common. so is g35 sedan. i did not go g35 because the awd would be heavy and 5at only and the rwd would be problematic in winter. we live in lincoln park.

 

I went to a place in Hoffman Estates that goes by either Woodfield Acura or Muller's. Unfortunately I'm at a big disadvantage right now because I have 3 months still left on my lease. Someone would have to make me a stupid offer to make me do it now. And these guys know it and don't want to give out a price that can be shopped around. That means that so far my negotiations have been different than how I normally do it.

And this is the first car that I've purchased, or attempted to purchase, where the dealer thinks they can sell at MSRP. Since my last 2 cars were leases, the negotiations were a little different than what I've been successful with in the past. But what I like to do is just go in with a price and stick to it.

I purchased an Olds Intrigue about 10 years ago this way. I figured out what my trade-in was worth and what invoice was on the car I wanted. I came up with a price of $15K including the trade as a price I would be happy with and one that the dealer would still make money with. The first price the salesman gave me was $19K which was basically MSRP and about about $1K less than my trade-in was worth. Here's how the conversation went from there:

ME: Sorry, that's too high. I'll pay $15K

Salesman: Let me talk to my manager. (goes out to have a smoke) OK my manager let me come down to $18,700.

ME: Nope, like I said $15K. That's it.

Salesman: Let me talk to my manager. (goes out to have a smoke) OK my manager let me come down to $18,200

ME: OK, we can play this game all day long, but I have to get back to work. I said $15K and I mean it. That's a fair price for both of us.

Salesman: Let me talk to my manager. (goes out to have a smoke) OK my manager let me come down to $17,500.

ME: What part of $15K don't you understand.

Salesman: Hey come on. I've come down $1500, you've got to come up a little in your offer.

ME: No I don't. I have to leave if you ask me to, but I don't have to offer you more money.

Salesman: NO NO DON'T LEAVE. Let me talk to my manager. (goes out to have a smoke) OK my manager let me come down to $17,000. He says that his final offer.

ME: That's too bad because my only offer is $15K. But tell your manager this is the last time we're going to play this game. Come back at $15K or I'm walking.

Salesman: Let me talk to my manager. (goes out to have a smoke) OK if I give it to you for $15K you'll buy today?

ME: That's what I've said.

Salesman: OK, we have a deal.



The point is, set a reasonable price and stick to it. Remember you are the only one that can leave, they have to be there till closing time. And if you give them your keys so they can evaluate the trade-in, do not say a word to them until you get your keys back. Do not let them hold your keys hostage.

 

Thanks John. I think $33.5K is a fair price. But I won't give up 3 months of lease for that price. If someone wants to talk to me about $32K I'll get my checkbook out right now.

I gotta say, also test drove today the Maxima and Murano. The Maxima was much nicer inside than I expected. I could be tempted. The Murano just didn't strike me as something worth the money they are asking. And what the heck do I do with my golf clubs?

I still like the TL the most. Hopefully they'll be more willing to deal a few months from now.