CDD or Clutch Dampening Device?
CDD or Clutch Dampening Device?
07-21-2005, 09:50 AM
#2
AZ Community Team
Do you mean the springs in the middle of the clutch disk to dampen the non-ideal rotation of a piston engine (piston connecting rod non-linear stroke versus roatation)?
07-21-2005, 10:22 AM
#3
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Do you mean the springs in the middle of the clutch disk to dampen the non-ideal rotation of a piston engine (piston connecting rod non-linear stroke versus roatation)?
No... I mean a damper in the clutch fluid line from the slave cylinder that would affect how the clutch is engaged when I release the pedal...
07-21-2005, 11:20 AM
#4
AZ Community Team
Yes, it does. This is from www.hondanews.com
"CLUTCH AND DUAL-MASS FLYWHEEL
...
To reduce drivetrain shock and limit the torque load on transmission components, the clutch includes a one-way delay orifice (check valve) located in the slave cylinder that restricts return fluid flow during rapid clutch engagement. This makes the clutch engagement more gradual during overly aggressive release.
..."
Personally I find this feature annoying cause it does limit how fast you can shift.
A feature to prevent fast clutch release abuse for those who don't know how to shift
"CLUTCH AND DUAL-MASS FLYWHEEL
...
To reduce drivetrain shock and limit the torque load on transmission components, the clutch includes a one-way delay orifice (check valve) located in the slave cylinder that restricts return fluid flow during rapid clutch engagement. This makes the clutch engagement more gradual during overly aggressive release.
..."
Personally I find this feature annoying cause it does limit how fast you can shift.
A feature to prevent fast clutch release abuse for those who don't know how to shift
Originally Posted by Bushwah
No... I mean a damper in the clutch fluid line from the slave cylinder that would affect how the clutch is engaged when I release the pedal...
07-21-2005, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Yes, it does. This is from www.hondanews.com
"CLUTCH AND DUAL-MASS FLYWHEEL
...
To reduce drivetrain shock and limit the torque load on transmission components, the clutch includes a one-way delay orifice (check valve) located in the slave cylinder that restricts return fluid flow during rapid clutch engagement. This makes the clutch engagement more gradual during overly aggressive release.
..."
Personally I find this feature annoying cause it does limit how fast you can shift.
A feature to prevent fast clutch release abuse for those who don't know how to shift
"CLUTCH AND DUAL-MASS FLYWHEEL
...
To reduce drivetrain shock and limit the torque load on transmission components, the clutch includes a one-way delay orifice (check valve) located in the slave cylinder that restricts return fluid flow during rapid clutch engagement. This makes the clutch engagement more gradual during overly aggressive release.
..."
Personally I find this feature annoying cause it does limit how fast you can shift.
A feature to prevent fast clutch release abuse for those who don't know how to shift
NICE!! Thanks man
Yeah I find it annoying too. My buddies removed the CDDs on their IS300 and S2k(Ap2) and both have better response now. I want to remove mine too.
07-21-2005, 11:34 AM
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I don't know why Manufactures put that on the car. So in other words the CDD can make the cltuch wear faster because of the longer engagement. It just sits there and feathers the engagemnt. I hope the dual mass isn't rubber centered because I can't get it resurfaced easily.
07-21-2005, 11:43 AM
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edit, I called up the dealer, they had no clue if the flywheel is "dual mass"... I asked for a price though, and its 363 or so. My buddy thinks its a solid flywheel, at that price. On his IS300 its 1100 for a new flywheel, not that it's worth that much...
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07-21-2005, 07:36 PM
#9
The DVD-A Script Guy
Dang.... Is this the reason that I just can't seem to get used to shifting this after my previous car for 10 years had a cable clutch ?
I've definitely noticed what I call a "springy grab" on fast shifts particularly in when engaging 2ng gear. Sort of like the car is being yanked by a bungee cord. The car grabs, then seems to pause and "wind up" then starts to accelerate again.
Or, am I just imagining things and need to give the clutch more than my 2k primarily highway miles to break in ?
I've definitely noticed what I call a "springy grab" on fast shifts particularly in when engaging 2ng gear. Sort of like the car is being yanked by a bungee cord. The car grabs, then seems to pause and "wind up" then starts to accelerate again.
Or, am I just imagining things and need to give the clutch more than my 2k primarily highway miles to break in ?
07-21-2005, 08:19 PM
#10
AZ Community Team
Yes to your first question
No to your last questiom, you're not imagining things. I'm almost at 6K miles. The clutch is not as graby as when new (which is good) but still exhibits what you call "springy grab".
No to your last questiom, you're not imagining things. I'm almost at 6K miles. The clutch is not as graby as when new (which is good) but still exhibits what you call "springy grab".
Originally Posted by Adobeman
Dang.... Is this the reason that I just can't seem to get used to shifting this after my previous car for 10 years had a cable clutch ?
I've definitely noticed what I call a "springy grab" on fast shifts particularly in when engaging 2ng gear. Sort of like the car is being yanked by a bungee cord. The car grabs, then seems to pause and "wind up" then starts to accelerate again.
Or, am I just imagining things and need to give the clutch more than my 2k primarily highway miles to break in ?
I've definitely noticed what I call a "springy grab" on fast shifts particularly in when engaging 2ng gear. Sort of like the car is being yanked by a bungee cord. The car grabs, then seems to pause and "wind up" then starts to accelerate again.
Or, am I just imagining things and need to give the clutch more than my 2k primarily highway miles to break in ?
07-21-2005, 08:47 PM
#11
The DVD-A Script Guy
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Yes to your first question
No to your last questiom, you're not imagining things. I'm almost at 6K miles. The clutch is not as graby as when new (which is good) but still exhibits what you call "springy grab".
No to your last questiom, you're not imagining things. I'm almost at 6K miles. The clutch is not as graby as when new (which is good) but still exhibits what you call "springy grab".
Anyway, I still love the car even with the "bungee"
07-22-2005, 04:19 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by Adobeman
I guess if there is a mod to get rid of it that is easy enough to do then I'm "all ears". I'm not going to entertain many hours of labor just to get rid of it but if it is easily bypassed that's another thing. I'd love to think it is in line with the hydraulic line to the slave but I'm guessing it is more internal to the slave. Best world would be something easily put back if you found you liked it better the original way. You never know....
Anyway, I still love the car even with the "bungee"
Anyway, I still love the car even with the "bungee"
I'm going to jack up my car tonight or tomorrow and take a look. According to my buddy it took 15 mins to take out his CDD on his IS300.
07-22-2005, 04:59 PM
#13
AZ Community Team
I looked over the part list for the clutch master/slave cylinder
Clutch master cylinder parts list
And I didn't see any one way limiting valve listed separately, so I guess it is integrated into the master or slave cylinder. I thought "12" could be it but it's a nipple brake line tube connector.
Clutch master cylinder parts list
And I didn't see any one way limiting valve listed separately, so I guess it is integrated into the master or slave cylinder. I thought "12" could be it but it's a nipple brake line tube connector.
07-25-2005, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
I looked over the part list for the clutch master/slave cylinder
Clutch master cylinder parts list
And I didn't see any one way limiting valve listed separately, so I guess it is integrated into the master or slave cylinder. I thought "12" could be it but it's a nipple brake line tube connector.
Clutch master cylinder parts list
And I didn't see any one way limiting valve listed separately, so I guess it is integrated into the master or slave cylinder. I thought "12" could be it but it's a nipple brake line tube connector.
Hmm doesn't look like there is a clutch dampener. I just hope it's not integrated like you mentioned.
07-25-2005, 07:56 PM
#15
Registered Member
Mine's fine after 15,300 miles.. still feels tight and true.. no detectable slippage or sloppiness. But then again, at 15,300 miles I figure I've only used maybe 7 or 8% of the life of the clutch assembly anyway.
As for quick shifting, I have noticed nothing unusual at all. With the VSA turned off, my manual tranny TL will break traction in the first three gears during shifts (well, of course, coming out of the hole it's gonna break traction for sure).
As for quick shifting, I have noticed nothing unusual at all. With the VSA turned off, my manual tranny TL will break traction in the first three gears during shifts (well, of course, coming out of the hole it's gonna break traction for sure).
07-25-2005, 08:55 PM
#16
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Careful with the hard shifting
Guys:
BE careful shifting the TL too hard. I am in the process of having my 6MT replaced, due to bent shift forks for 1,2,3 and bad synchros and a bad 3RD gear.
I can assure you that I did not do this damage as this car had 300+ miles on it when I bought it and I complained about balky shifts and a buzzing under light load in 3RD gear when I first bought it. Dealer could not "duplicate" originally, but it continued to get worse over time and now there is no question. I have really been gentle on this car as it just did not feel as durable as my Mustang GT.
I raced the GT, drove the heck out of it, did not concern myself with shifting it too hard as it proved durable over time. 170K miles and not one complaint!
28K with Acura and I am getting a new (actually rebuilt) tranny.
BE careful shifting the TL too hard. I am in the process of having my 6MT replaced, due to bent shift forks for 1,2,3 and bad synchros and a bad 3RD gear.
I can assure you that I did not do this damage as this car had 300+ miles on it when I bought it and I complained about balky shifts and a buzzing under light load in 3RD gear when I first bought it. Dealer could not "duplicate" originally, but it continued to get worse over time and now there is no question. I have really been gentle on this car as it just did not feel as durable as my Mustang GT.
I raced the GT, drove the heck out of it, did not concern myself with shifting it too hard as it proved durable over time. 170K miles and not one complaint!
28K with Acura and I am getting a new (actually rebuilt) tranny.
09-28-2006, 09:21 AM
#19
AZ Community Team
From http://hondanews.com/CatID3014?mid=2...59067&mime=asc
The TL's manual transmission is equipped with a compact clutch unit that is self-adjusting for consistent pedal height, feel and effort throughout its service life. This innovative clutch system automatically takes up the slack between the pressure plate and clutch disc and lowers release loads while maintaining consistent pressure for the diaphragm spring. For 2007, the clutch mechanism incorporates a clutch feel compensation spring, which results in a more linear engagement feel.
So it looks like Acura made changes to the clutch to improve the feel which I agree it definitely needed.
The TL's manual transmission is equipped with a compact clutch unit that is self-adjusting for consistent pedal height, feel and effort throughout its service life. This innovative clutch system automatically takes up the slack between the pressure plate and clutch disc and lowers release loads while maintaining consistent pressure for the diaphragm spring. For 2007, the clutch mechanism incorporates a clutch feel compensation spring, which results in a more linear engagement feel.
So it looks like Acura made changes to the clutch to improve the feel which I agree it definitely needed.
09-28-2006, 10:31 AM
#20
2005TL(6MT)
At least they addressed and fixed the clutch design for '07.
Sometimes I wish Acura would do more testing of their "New" designs before implementing them. Most of the time the improvements are good. But sometimes they create some interesting minor problems that get fixed one, two or three years later. Occasionally the "New" designs are big problems though. Not things I would expect from a quality company that's been around for a while like Acura/Honda.
My '01 CLS had many small design flaws that got corrected in following model years and one major one (5AT). Some of the flaws were the type new car companies make and are very surprising from Acura. Some of them were seat back pockets popping off, windshield washer hoses and blades needing replacement due to poor wiper fluid, brake rotors warping at 6,000 miles of normal use and others that were fixed by the dealer.
My late build '05 TL has been very good or maybe I should say perfect. It hasn't needed to see the dealer for any correctable problems since it left fourteen months ago. Although it has low miles on it, about 7,500. Looks like many of the earlier build problems were corrected by the time the factory this one.
Sometimes I wish Acura would do more testing of their "New" designs before implementing them. Most of the time the improvements are good. But sometimes they create some interesting minor problems that get fixed one, two or three years later. Occasionally the "New" designs are big problems though. Not things I would expect from a quality company that's been around for a while like Acura/Honda.
My '01 CLS had many small design flaws that got corrected in following model years and one major one (5AT). Some of the flaws were the type new car companies make and are very surprising from Acura. Some of them were seat back pockets popping off, windshield washer hoses and blades needing replacement due to poor wiper fluid, brake rotors warping at 6,000 miles of normal use and others that were fixed by the dealer.
My late build '05 TL has been very good or maybe I should say perfect. It hasn't needed to see the dealer for any correctable problems since it left fourteen months ago. Although it has low miles on it, about 7,500. Looks like many of the earlier build problems were corrected by the time the factory this one.
09-28-2006, 10:41 AM
#21
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What do you mean they fixed the clutch design for '07? I am curious to know what is different.
The info from the link and the text submitted by Legend2TL is not any different from the marketing and statements made about my 04. I remember reading the same exact thing when I was contemplating the purchase of my TL two years ago.
The info from the link and the text submitted by Legend2TL is not any different from the marketing and statements made about my 04. I remember reading the same exact thing when I was contemplating the purchase of my TL two years ago.
09-28-2006, 11:08 AM
#22
AZ Community Team
I was referring to the last sentence "For 2007, the clutch mechanism incorporates a clutch feel compensation spring, which results in a more linear engagement feel." which indicated they made some changes for 2007.
Alot in these Acura/Honda press releases is lifted over the previous years but I noted the change for 2007 clutch. In terms of driving my TL this is the greatest detriment, being not a positive clutch feel.
Alot in these Acura/Honda press releases is lifted over the previous years but I noted the change for 2007 clutch. In terms of driving my TL this is the greatest detriment, being not a positive clutch feel.
Originally Posted by ITL
What do you mean they fixed the clutch design for '07? I am curious to know what is different.
The info from the link and the text submitted by Legend2TL is not any different from the marketing and statements made about my 04. I remember reading the same exact thing when I was contemplating the purchase of my TL two years ago.
The info from the link and the text submitted by Legend2TL is not any different from the marketing and statements made about my 04. I remember reading the same exact thing when I was contemplating the purchase of my TL two years ago.
09-28-2006, 11:11 AM
#23
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I see. I don't necessarily remember anything about the spring. Maybe that's new.
Agreed about the clutch feel. Thought not horrible, it's certainly a little unique to any car I've ever driven, with the late, short engagement and bungie cord feel with 3rd and 4th.
Agreed about the clutch feel. Thought not horrible, it's certainly a little unique to any car I've ever driven, with the late, short engagement and bungie cord feel with 3rd and 4th.
09-30-2006, 07:39 AM
#25
2005TL(6MT)
I don't think it will be easy to remove the feel as the clutch master cylinder and the clutch would have to be replaced with after market parts. The cylinder seems to have some kind of metering valve in it to stop fluid from moving too fast (dumping the clutch). The clutch also has some kind dampening (spring?) to absorb shock and momentary high load. Both of these devices are great for the limiting the stress on the drive train and for human comfort but not so great for performance.
I wouldn't think these things would be on the S2000 with it's low torque and since it also hurts performance.
I wouldn't think these things would be on the S2000 with it's low torque and since it also hurts performance.
10-30-2006, 02:33 PM
#27
Safety Car
Since acura made the mod needed for the 07 IM gonna beat the living shit out of mine and get a new one put in until they wanna give me the updated setup =) I hate the springy feeling in any gear it drives me bananas I thought I was the retard who didnt know how to drive stick meanwhile it was the damn car!!!
10-30-2006, 02:50 PM
#28
Mike's Silver Bullet
I was used to a Miata.
I had to really slow down the shifts to get it to be smooth. Lifting off the accelerator slightly before pushing in the clutch seemed to help too.
I don't think the TL is set up to shift quickly and be smooth, probably related to ULEV II and throttle-by-wire not closing the throttle quickly.
I'll bet the clutch damping is implemented with a check ball in the slave cylinder. It might or might not be easy to get it out.
Mike
I had to really slow down the shifts to get it to be smooth. Lifting off the accelerator slightly before pushing in the clutch seemed to help too.
I don't think the TL is set up to shift quickly and be smooth, probably related to ULEV II and throttle-by-wire not closing the throttle quickly.
I'll bet the clutch damping is implemented with a check ball in the slave cylinder. It might or might not be easy to get it out.
Mike
10-30-2006, 03:18 PM
#29
Mike's Silver Bullet
Originally Posted by sandynmike
I was used to a Miata.
I had to really slow down the shifts to get it to be smooth. Lifting off the accelerator slightly before pushing in the clutch seemed to help too.
I don't think the TL is set up to shift quickly and be smooth, probably related to ULEV II and throttle-by-wire not closing the throttle quickly.
I'll bet the clutch damping is implemented with a check ball in the slave cylinder. It might or might not be easy to get it out.
Mike
I had to really slow down the shifts to get it to be smooth. Lifting off the accelerator slightly before pushing in the clutch seemed to help too.
I don't think the TL is set up to shift quickly and be smooth, probably related to ULEV II and throttle-by-wire not closing the throttle quickly.
I'll bet the clutch damping is implemented with a check ball in the slave cylinder. It might or might not be easy to get it out.
Mike
Disabling the damping would risk breaking other parts in the transmission and driveline.
10-30-2006, 04:28 PM
#30
Registered Member
A quick way to find out if your clutch is beginning to show early signs of slippage and/or if the damping device is hampering rapid engagement is this on a cool, dry day.
Disable VSA.
Find a nice stretch of smooth road and start off in first gear.
Allow full engagement to take place then raise the RPMs up to around 2500.
Go to WOT like RIGHT NOW.
Speed shift (NOT power shift) through 2nd and 3rd gears.
If you do not break traction in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears.. if you notice some kind of delay in 2nd and 3rd gears, you are being hampered by the device. Or you may have more wear to your clutch than normal.
I have done this quite a few times and I break traction in all of the gears mentioned.
Disable VSA.
Find a nice stretch of smooth road and start off in first gear.
Allow full engagement to take place then raise the RPMs up to around 2500.
Go to WOT like RIGHT NOW.
Speed shift (NOT power shift) through 2nd and 3rd gears.
If you do not break traction in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears.. if you notice some kind of delay in 2nd and 3rd gears, you are being hampered by the device. Or you may have more wear to your clutch than normal.
I have done this quite a few times and I break traction in all of the gears mentioned.
10-30-2006, 07:37 PM
#31
Man of God.....
Originally Posted by sandynmike
Edit: I'm also guessing the damping (or the damping being too effective on their cars) is why some folks are wearing out the clutch very quickly.
Disabling the damping would risk breaking other parts in the transmission and driveline.
Disabling the damping would risk breaking other parts in the transmission and driveline.
07-11-2008, 08:07 AM
#36
Safety Car
the device is spring loaded and is between the motor n tranny by the throw out bearing u cant remove it.....its designed to keep the clutch feeling the same throughout the life of it. it also slows down the drop on the clutch so its not rough.
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