JonDeutsch

and....

it's not glowing.

They are very stuck on the balance, torque steer, and handling of the the FWD platform. They couldn't get away from it.

DVD Audio, Bluetooth? How many people really care about this, they ask. Great interior and exterior? So what?

The brake performance was poor (esp. compared to MotorWeek!), they actually preferred the 5AT due to the torque steer issue, and they felt that it didn't do the trick against its competition -- the G35 and BMW 330i.

Sure... it'll handle better in the rain and snow... but so what? It's not RWD, and therefore it's useless.

Sigh.

Meanwhile the TSX and G35 get into the 10Best. Interesting...

Jon

SlntSam

Do they have this online yet? Maybe I'll pick up a copy if it's only on the rack.

lakeman

JonDeutsch, I can somewhat understand their take. If you drive lots of performance cars, many with RWD, many with tons of power, and often near the limit, I can see having a distain for FWD cars. They are different and more dificult to drive at the limit. As you know from my previous posts, many of my cars have been FWD and I found the 04 TL 6MT to be one of the best I ever drove. IMHO, Lots of power and not much torque steer. It does however feel different from a RWD car especailly as one applies more and more power. I, like most people, don't drive near the limit, but at no more than 7 or 8/10ths. At these levels the TL is far ahead of the G35 in nearly every category.

gregory28

Well, the Edmunds review is extremely positive and the Motorweek review was extremely favorable- "2 out of 3 ain't bad". I've read a few other reviews that have been all positive as well- links posted in other threads. There's always some subjectivity involved. Maybe "Car and Driver" can't get passed the AWD. This is the first review that I've heard that wasn't favorable. I'll have to read it.

garuda

Funny, they didn't give the G35 a very good review at the very beginning. Came in 4th out of 5 cars if I remembered correctly.
I think that they are pro BMW and anything else is pure crap.
That's why I stopped my subscription.

SlntSam

Well even motorweek says "It handles good, for a FWD car." I think they were being reasonable there by acknowledging that RWD do handle better but the TL is pretty damn good for a front driver.

It's a bit strange that they're stuck on the FWD thing because it was because of Car and Driver that I bought the Prelude. They had scored it best out of 10 sport coupes under $30k USD.

They gave it 10/10 for fun to drive saying that it made you feel like "Mikka Hakinnen" when you drove it. No complaints about FWD there. I believe it was up against a AWD and perhaps a RWD car at the time.

Oh well, I'd be interested in reading what they have to say.

lakeman

Review does not appear to be online yet.
Also was it a comparison test?

princed

Did C&D post any 0-60 or quarter mile times? What was their braking distance?

garuda

Correction on my previous post. G35 came in 4th out of 6 cars and get this...TL-S came in 3rd ahead of the G35. Read it online:
"Waiting for a Bimmer Beater" article.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

Saintor

Who was the editor? Some of them like Steve Spencer will never pass to the fact that it is not an Audi or euro.

fast-tl

The picture online shows the SECOND gen TL. What gives?

fast-tl

Third Place
Acura 3.2TL Type-S
OK Jon, you're smoking something. This is an OLD reviews, not one of the current car.

garuda

No, the article is an old article way before the 2004 TL even become public knowledge. I was just pointing out the CD is somewhat biased in their reviews. At the time, all other magazines rant and raves about the G35 and CD was the only one that knocked it down. So I could't care less what they say about the TL.

vtechbrain

Check my post for the numbers. I'm a little pissed by the poor review since I have driven the G35, 330 and A4 and they don't shine compared to the TL. I gues I'll have to test drive them at willow springs to appreciate all these RWD virtues they rag about for 4 pages.

garuda

I want to express that the article I quoted is an old article and is not the one that Jon is talking about (in the current CD issue which I haven't read yet). If the current issue ranked the G35 ahead of the 2004 TL, then it's kind of weird that the old article rated the 2003 TL-S as better than the G35. Do they mean that the TL-S is better than the 2004TL....NOT!!!!!!!!
Common CD people....

erikmoeser

0-60 5.7, prob. quicker with the 030s
Skid pad .81
1/4 14.4 @99
70-0 189 ft!

If I like a car they hate so much I guess I like anything!

acuraddict

This a very frustrating thread, and based on the mixed information you're all giving, Car & Driver is clearly missing something. Frankly, I don't care what they think in terms of my decision to buy yet another acura over everything else. I'd still have chosen the 04 TL.

erikmoeser

Go back to Oct. C&D and read their preview test....It is like they are talking about a totally different car! And TSX a 10 best? Something is not ringing true here. Some people who read this won't test drive. Many people who have driven the TL will thumb their nose at this report...and I am one of them, a very long time subscriber to C&D among others. It is nice to see your opinions corroborated by the "experts", but in this case I will just have to watch the Motorweek test again! It will be interesting to see what the take of R&T and Automobile turns out to be. Especially the braking performance, that should not be a matter of opinion (bias).

I'm the first to admit that a BMW 330i out handles the TL and is satisfyingly crisp. But is it "good" and the TL "bad"? Forget it!

zexi

I love this car ! F&%K Car and Driver ! 6speed with Nav is a bargin !. 0-60 9n 5.7 sec !. I have 1000 miles on mine and I have never once felt the tourque steer, yeah it's a bad boy engine and you just got to know its limits. These editors think we drive this car like we were at the test rack all the time. Not one of the 10 best ? Noooooooooooo way !.. tsx better ? Not! Hey , I got a smile every time I get in and start the engine. the stereo and the nav are the best std equipment out there. That doesn't count though to these car geeks at C& D . Please , I driven the g35, a6
530. Nothing can tell me the The TL is not the best deal dollar for dollar in the market. Well, I fell better now ...:devil: :lol1:

Maxim

The reviewer is biased against FWD? No news there. That's to be expected. Those options like Bluetooth and DVD-A? Never liked them anyway. Thought it was overkill. USA Today headlined their article "Acura goes gaga for gadgets in sleek sedan" while proclaiming it as gadget-laden. Driving dynamics? I have driven the G35 and it drives no better than the TL. Overall the TL is the better car. Automobile, R&D, MT will reach different conclusions, for sure.

vtechbrain

I read it again! either these guys were smoking some dope or I have for the last 2000 miles! They always spoke glowingly of the previous model. Acura builds a car that is superior to the previous in EVERY category (in some dramatically better) and they diss it. What a crock!!!

JonDeutsch

OK guys... now that I have a bit more time on my hands.... let me quote some of the brand-new review of the 2004 TL (by Ron Kiino, btw, in 1/04's C&D):

First sentence: "Acura has subbornly resisted building a rear-wheel-drive, V6 powered sports sedan."
...
"It would make sense because only so much power can be delivered through the tires that are also called on to steer. The competition is well aware of this.... rear-drive cars are the best-balanced, best-handling vehicles."

He goes onto to say why they understand why they went FWD... to leverage the Honda Accord to save "big bucks. "

"All that power and torque gets channeled through the front-drive dam like a school of spawning salmon, bogging down the drivetrain as it tries to put the power down. Gobs of wheelspin ensues until the [tires] are finally able to hook up, launching the TL upstream with serious authority."

Yes, they DO clock it at 5.7 to 60! And 1/4 mile at 14.4 @99mph.

Interestingly, unlike Motoweek, he loves the manual tranny: "it enters and exits its sex gates with short, velvety throws, making rowing the gears more a joy than a chore."

He goes onto say that it beats the G35 and 330i in straight line performance.

The problem starts, apparently, when you start basing performance views on curves vs. straight lines... "On our [loop], where twisty roads abound, the TL couldn't attack curves with the same speed and vigor as the Inifiniti and BMW, inspiring less confidnece because of its heavier front-loaded nature. Balance is key here, and the Acura's 60/40 bias can't match the BMW's perfect 50/50 or Infiniti's 53/47.... the TL feels heavy and not nearly as light on its feet as even the G35, which weighs five pounds more."

He goes on to say that the steering is light, and there's too much assist.

He goes onto how the LSD can't mask the torque steer.... "as if each pound-foot were a G.I. Joe action figure in a tug of war. On the plus side, as long as you're conscious of this trait, accelerating out of turns is surprisingly fast, although a bit nerve-racking." He finished this section up by saying "We're usually not ones to say stuff like this, but the automatic is arguably the more fitting transmission for the TL's lofty power numbers."

Next, the miserable breaking numbers are logged: 189-foot stopping distance from 70.

Though... 'Pedal feel is excellent, relaying just the right amount of resistance to make modulation easy. And heel-to-toe downshifting is a delight, thanks to ideal pedal placement and a drive-by-wire throttle system that requires only a slight nudge of the gas pedal to blip the tachometer."

More good stuff to share.... "the TL was the epitome of sporty comfort, taking the edge off big impacts while still transmitting enough of the road to get a sense of the surface."

Then he literally brushes by the interior, which got exactly 2 sentences dedicated to it. Just the facts like we know them, seperated by semi-colons.

About the look? Another entire sentence dedicated: "... an agressive look that all of us found pleasing to the eye and refeshing in the class -- the TL has gone from demure to bold, inside and out."

They say that at $35k, you can get a comparibly equipped G35, and about $5000 more puts you behind the wheel of a 330i with all of the goodies.

He then admits that neither can match the standard-level of equipment of the TL, but then, in my opinion, he shows his rust-belt cards in spades:

"...we wonder how many drivers will appreciate DVD and Bluetooth capability. Likely not as many as those who'd appreciate the 270 horses exerting themselves through the rear wheel."

Final paragraph: "The TL is a beautifully crafted and attractive sports sedan with loads of smart features, and its front-drive layout does have advantages, such as better traction on slippery and snow-covered roads. But until it sends power out back, it'll be hard pressed to get our nod over the rear-drive competition."

That last paragraph actually has some dangling logic... I don't think anyone's asking them to give it the nod over a 330i. I think we're just asking for a review of the damned car.

Clearly, as a FWD car, in a different EPA class in size, and an entirely different price point, the TL is not a 330i killer. It's a 330i and 530i alternative -- because it precisely competes with neither to a tee. To that end, why he feels the need to blast the car for not being better than a 330i is beyond me.

It reeks of living in a bubble... they just don't get that there are people who do enjoy performance who still need to get home from work when it's raining or snowing. Why don't they understand that we don't all live on or near the track?

It's very frustrating to me because...I happen to really like C&D... and I respect their opinions a lot. They usually tell it like it is. It does hurt when a magazine you respect disses your new (or soon to be new) very expensive purchase.

Of course, in true C&D fashion, they were straight-shooting, no holds barred reporting... if you buy into the fact that Acura is touting the new TL as the coffin for the 330i.

Jon

RJC RSX

yeah that about says it. I think some letters to the editor are needed

JonDeutsch

Another thought (re: the conclusion of the review):

C&D gave an opinion about what it's not, not an opinion on what it is.

Interesting...

Oh, and the COUNTERPOINTs (3 of them) are even worse. Terms like "fatal flaw" and a quote from a Honda engineer saying "we think we might have gone a little too far."

Jon

JonDeutsch

Oh, and more thoughts.

The preview for the TSX was almost as miserable. But when they did the full review, it was a different author, and they simply loved the thing. It could do no wrong. Now it's in the 10Best.

Also... I don't quite recall the 03 TL-S or CL-S at 260HP being so fatally flawed and such a wreck of engineering. Do you?

Also...they don't not recommend it nor recommend it. Their info-box "Verdict": "A rear-drive-shaft shy of getting our full recommendation." So.... what, it's 1/2 recommended? Maybe only on Tuesdays it's recommended? What the heck does that mean????

I also have a theory:

Maybe, just maybe, it means that the package is so f*&#ing compelling that they're just downright frustrated that it's not a RWD, and therefore not the hands-down hottest car on 4 wheels they've ever tested. This could be the case, which would speak volumes for the car as-is. But we won't really know until it's up against its competition in a few months. They somehow see cars in a different light when they're compared back-to-back.

JonDeutsch

More from the review...

"The Verdict" INFO-BOX:

HIGHS: Acura's second-best V6 to-date, slick manual transmission, sophisticated styling inside and out.

LOWS: FWD propulsion, underwhelming tires, torque-steer symptoms.

THE VERDICT: A rear-drive-shaft shy of getting our full recommendation.

JonDeutsch

Oh yeah, I got more to say...

Here's a quote from their review of the TL-S in the comparo posted earlier in this thread:

"No manufacturer is better at hiding a car's front-drive nature than Honda, and the TL is proof. Until you pass the sign that reads, "Entering Hocking State Forest." That's when this Acura goes into fairly early understeer and is content to yowl there all afternoon. It can be a nice safety net, of course — no car was easier to nudge to its limit in low-friction turns. The trick to coaxing more speed, we learned, is to settle the body motions upon entry. Dial in some left-foot braking — the pedal is communicative and progressive — then slowly squeeze on power early and long. With practice, you can avoid a lot of the tire grind and summon exit speeds that frighten livestock."

Astounding what another 10 ponies can do to a car, Ron. Maybe I'll just pump 87 octane to dial back 10HP and then all will be fine again.

Jon

RJC RSX

thanks for taking the time to type up all that. it really seems C/D ****ed up this review, and i feel bad for honda not getting fair press. I will write a letter to the editor with reference to the 02TL review when i receive my copy.

zexi

Very well said.. its funny how ones man opion can get us all so PISSED OFF !:lol1: :lol1: :lol1:

RJC RSX

it's fine that the car doesn't trounce the bmw in handling, but some of those comments were unjustified

JZ39

If you all remember when the CL 6 speed went up against the BMW 330 they called the CLS "the best front-driver ever".

I forget which mag this was in, but it does sound strange that the TL got ripped like it did.

I so think, however, that Acura is reaching a limit with the front drive. The next TL will have to be AWD to continue to battle.

Unlike the folks at Infiniti, who have proven to be risk-takers, I doubt we will see a mid-production AWD option for the TL.

JonDeutsch

JZ,

There's no doubt that the FWD platform is a limiting framework for performance. However, how you define "limiting" is I think key to the review.

Front-wheel steering is also limited as compared to all-wheel steering. But you don't see C&D trashing BMW for not having all-wheel steering, do you?

I admit that the torque steer was, in my words, unnerving. It was during the test drive, and it will be during ownership. It's a bummer. I wish it didn't have it. But I also know that I want great traction over rain and snow (I live in Philly). I know that I'll need that traction much more often than I'll run into severe torque steer.

So, it's all about the equation, isn't it.

Jon

chadr

I look at it this way. If we all like driving the car the review shouldn't really matter.

As far as AWD goes for the TL I would guess we will see an AWD version of the car in the near future. I would guess the RL will be AWD and then soon after that an AWD version of the TL.

In the end if you like the car and enjoy driving it who cares what a reviewer says. I have driven all types of cars on all types of levels (short list, RX8, Audi S4, BMW M3, Corvette, Audi A4, etc) and I enjoy driving the TL a great deal. It is not the sportiest car in the world but it serves my purpose very well and is extremely comfortable. Would I like the TL better with AWD? Sure but it doesn't make me regret my purchase or think less of the car.

jyg tl 3

front wheel drive is not purist drivers platform, no it ain't no BMW. but is is a good car. relax, it all depends on what perspective you are lookin from . TL is powerful, quiet, , good looking , but it is still a front driver, Car mags never were big on them, as front wheel drive has its limitations, . Live with it, if you love it enough said

vtechbrain

All who think this review is a bunch of bull say AYE!!!

Peters

I'm always intrigued to see how C/D rates a car and what they consider important. There is always some personal bias in every review but I'm amazed at how they can rate a BMW so well, or rear wheel drive, without considering the real world practical implications never mind the absolute mind-boggling price equation. I live in Toronto and the rear wheel drive BMW is one of the vehicles that receive unanimous distain when winter rolls around. Rear wheel drive may be great on the test track, but when the snow flies it can be hazardous. I drove the new 530i and while I did feel it was a little softer sprung and better targeted at the market segment, it seems very underpowered and sluggish - at a price that was almost double with the navigation system, I just couldn’t imagine buying it. I’d love to be side by side with my new ’04 5AT with some guy in a new BMW 530i. And while the C/D tester didn’t think the DVD A system was important, I certainly do. I’ve never heard anything like it. So what makes rear wheel drive attributes more important than high fidelity? In Toronto, Audi Quattro’s, Volvos, and Acura’s abound because a RWD car just isn’t practical. Sure there’s BMW’s and Mercedes brands all-over the place, but when it snows you have to use your SUV. The TL is a lot firmer than the old car it replaces, but man, in the real world, the thing handles like it’s on rails. Torque steer? There might be some, but if the 530i was powerful enough you’d have the ass out over the sidewalk if you stepped on it.

erikmoeser

$5000 more for a 330i?

The one I "built" had the Performance Pkg. and leather and sunroof and xenons and cold pkg...just the way C&D would like it...and it msrpd at just over 44,000. That would be comparably equipped to a base TL. Even with a $1000 feel good BMW discount we are nearly $10000 apart. For a smaller car, different purpose, each to their own, even if I did nearly buy one. :-)

My TL (anthracite no-nav 6MT HPT) is on its way to the dealership. It has a VIN needing 5 digits. I can't wait.

JonDeutsch

BTW,

The review is far from awful. It's just nearly as glowing as I expected it to be based on how I see the car. That descrepancy is the shockaroo, that's all.

If you took the review and surgically removed all the mentions of RWD vs. FWD and issues surrounding this, you'd have a pretty glowing review.

They just weight the drivetrain as 80% of their eval criteria, whereas people like me are pretty hyped up over the Bluetooth and NAVI integration, not to mention the DVD-A, XM, 3D solar sensing, comfy seats, voice-activated navi, and more.

Let's put it this way, I care about drivetrain enough that I passed up on the TSX due to it's lack of power. But beyond having enough torque and HP to get me to 60 under 7 seconds, I don't care much about drivetrain. After you get me to 60 in under 7 seconds (6 preferably ), then I'm going to start caring about body roll/handling, and then creature comforts and eye-popping technology.

Jon

JonDeutsch

Hmmm, $10k more for a similarly equipped 330i. I wonder how much more for a similarly-equipped 530i... since the 530i and the TL have the same dimentions and EPA class.

C&D... maybe some real price comparisons are in order before you ding the TL.

Jon

Peters

In Toronto a BMW 530i with Navi, auto and a few other things would fetch about $73k (CDN) versus $44K for the TL. I mean, you really gotta like that BMW symbol to spend another 30K or so, never mind the sales tax impact. The 530i is a good car, I like the way it drives - but not enough to spend that kind of money. Every 330i I looked at was about $55K once I optioned it properly. Nope, I could never get over the value equation when it came to BMW. And I can afford to buy one, I just don't think its worth it.