Does anyone see a difference in performance or driveability when using different brands of gasoline? I am in the northeast. I'm driving a 2004TL 5AT NAVI and loving every minute. It's a whole new driving experience. I have about 7000 miles on the odometer. Thanks for your replies.

 

Actually, yes, though I have a first gen TL. I run 89 octane, insetad of 87 or 93, I would probably use 91 if it was easily available. For a while I was running Cumberland Farms gas, cause it was the cheapest stuff around. But I have noticed a huge difference by switching to Hess gas, about 3mpg actually.

 

I only put Chevron with Techron... Their marketing has me thinking its better for your car... but who knows !

 

I do - it has reasonably high detergent levels, higher than most everyone else, but all the mfr's have lowered their detergent levels over the last 5 years. Even though some states and the Feds set standards, they are not enforced.

This is why I recommend a quality fuel system cleaner just before an oil change. Search on "The RR Journals" or go to 3G Garage and it will do it for you. I just cannot type these long answers over and over. My fingers will fall off.

 

I wonder if those big brand fuel companies would enforce some safety/environmental standards into their gas stations or their contract gas stations, such as "how long they have to clean up their underground tank", "some serious procedures to make sure the gas has been saved right", etc.

At least, I won't go to those super cheap gas station, which has cheaper price, poor exterior, super old pump, no name brand, and dirty ground, etc.

 

DEFINITELY stay away from older/poorly maintained/low-traffic gas stations.

Maintenance of underground tanks, etc is usually regulated by the local government and EPA. Whether or not the station owner is keeping up with it is usually evident if they don't even spend $$ to make the outside look good.

Gasoline quality degrades the longer it sits around and becomes contaminated with water (bad for engines). I can't remember where I read it, but the older/poorer quality gas is heavier and will sink to the bottom of the storage container. This is usually not an issue at high-volume facilities where stock is constantly rotated.

In terms of the brand of gas, octane ratings are more important for power/performance and this measurement is regulated by the government. As RR mentioned, the various brands have different additives/detergents to help prolong clean valves and injectors and help keep your engine running strong.

 

Thanks for clarifying these. Brokedoc.

 

A new discount station opened in town with prices about $.10/gal less than the others. I was using their gas in my '99 Civic Si until I noticed the car was hard to start only on their gas. For awhile, I thought I needed to change the spark plugs.

 

 

how about shell gas...the new one...the one with the yellow fish?

 

vtec? wait, I mean v-power.

 

chevron only and with my navi i will always find one. what i do is i find serveral along my route with the bullseye and call them up and see which one is the cheapest. works like a charm. I LOVE OUR NAVI. almost like a walking talking yellowpages

 

I have used Mobil 93 octane Super religiously for the last 15 years- mostly because I have the do-hickey on my key chain that automatically puts it on my credit card.

But..., in June, Shell brought a shipload of bad, high sulfur fuel into the area and it ruined a lot of people's fuel tank sending units in the tank. Shell scurried to fix those affected and to settle with them before catalytic converters started going bad: $$$$.

At that time, my gas guage broke in my Jeep Wrangler. It stuck on full and wouldn't budge. This was the same symptom others reported with bad Shell gas. However, I had just filled up at the Mobil station! I complained at the station and they pled ignorance.

So, I filed a claim with Shell and told them it was their bad gas but that I got it at a Mobil station. They didn't bat an eye. They asked for a copy of my receipt and registration. They told me to take the Jeep to the dealer and get it fixed and they would pay for it directly to the dealer. I did and they did. It was just under $1,000.

The Jeep dealer stuck it to them. They charged 3 hours driving and diagnosis (totally invented), 4 hours dropping the tank and replacing sending unit, fuel pump, fuel filter, etc. which, in reality, took them about 1.5 hours. Well, I wasn't going to get in the middle of these two rip-off artists having a gang-bang with each other.

Bottom line: I see the trucks at Port Everglades filling up from the big tanks. There will be a Mobil truck, followed by a Shell truck, followed by a Chevron truck..... all filling up from the same spiggot. Maybe they add their own detergents and such later

Here in Florida, anyway, the gasoline seems to be a commodity. The independent stations, even the branded ones, probably buy the gas wherever it is cheapest. I believe they are contractually obligated to buy it from their company but they cheat regularly. If the company owned stations have a branded source, it is not visible.

It is so common that Shell just coughed up $1,000 rather than question how I got their bad gas at a Mobil station.

 

That is a very interesting story. I sometimes heard that the different oil companys share the same gasoline. Who knows if they put there own additives or not. It would be interesting to follow the trucks to see if they stop at any point to have the additives added.

 

Here in Michigan gas is brought into the state by pipeline. Same pipe brings in all brands of gasoline.
I have been told that the different brands dye the gas a different color for identification as it passes
to the different wholesale tanks where it then gets shipped by truck.
I seriously doubt that there is any difference in the gasoline other than color.
I try to buy Mobil or any other company that is American, but mostly Mobil.
Chevron or ARCO is not available here unless they market it by a different brand. Lots of
Speedway, BP.
Craig

 

No matter how cheap or poorly maintained on the exterior a gas station looks, if they are in business then they are up to date on all the regulations. Every gas station is subjected to dozens of tests at 4 and 6 year intervals, otherwise there are heavy fines and/or station closures. There are vapor recovery tests/pressure decay tests/blockage tests/tank tightness test and many many others. Some are grouped together others are done as a separate procedure. Then there is the Office of Consumer Affairs(Weights and Measures Dept.) they come several times a year or at every consumer complaint to test the octane levels and to make sure the gasoline is properly dispensed. Local fire marshalls also come every so often to make sure all fire safety standards are up to date and to take a look at compliance book for all the tank tests. Lastly there are independent fuel management companies that all the stations need to contract, the biggest one of them is Veeder-Root they keep a fuel management computer on premises and keep an eye on tank pressure lines, dispenser pumps, water levels and much more at a cost of hundreds of dollars a month. It costs thousands of dollars to maintain a gas station up to code.

As far as the gasoline quality goes I am not aware of any major oil companies that own fuel refineries although some may have a stake in them. Independent companies, many no one heard about are in the business of oil puchase and refining. Majors purchase their gasoline from those companies. Recently a major refining company has contracted gas stations to sell their own brand under their name. Major oil companies do own storage facilities(terminals), transportation (oil tankers/trucks) and gas stations of which some are company owned and most are contracted, the only way to tell is if you see a large convenience store on the premises then it's a company owned station, if you see a repair station with or without the store then it's a contracted station. Back to the gasoline quality, there is no guarantee that if you go to the the brand station that you will be getting gasoline prepared for that brand. There is only one company that I know of that always goes to their own facilities. Small independent gas stations purchase their gasoline through wholesalers who in turn pick up the gas from whatever storage terminal they have an account with the lowest price. So if you go to an independent one day you'll be getting one brand of major gas the next day another brand, don't forget that by going to a major brand station there is a very good chance that the same thing is happening there.

So no matter where you go there is only one rule to observe. Do not get gas from a station that has a truck unloading or wait 15-20 min for the gas to settle down. Any smart station operator will not dispense gas for at least 15 min after gas delivery to minimize filter clog but that is rare and not to be counted on. I hope this info has been helpfull.

 

It's a fact, different retailers (Shell, Chevron, Mobil, 76/Conoco) all source their fuels from the same tank farms. All the tank farms on the East Coast are fed by pipelines owned by a company called Colonial Pipeline, (http://www.colpipe.com/ab_map.asp) which transports the same fuel from refineries in Houston all the way to NJ. The only difference between brands is the detergents added, and this is exclusively handled by the truck driver climbing on top of his tanker truck at the tank farm and throwing in one gallon (or less) of "Techron" "V-Power" (with yellow fish added), "Star Power", etc. Think about it, 1 gallon of additives for every 10,000 gallons of common fuel. If you use 20 gallons per week, and you spend 10 cents per gallon more than, for example "Costco" brand, that amounts to $104/year. I can buy a lot of fuel injector cleaner for $100.

 

Dutchman:
Thanks for the interesting post, and the map - recog points forthcoming.
I certainly agree with you in principle, as I have researched this when i wrote a "Tech" column for an automobile consumer newsletter. But one of the things I found was that seasonal mixture adjustments, which allow for the differing burn properties of IC engines as ambient air temperatures change, often get sold cheaper to discounters, and can cause some driveability headaches until everyone has switched over. And the additives are not just cleaners - they include lubricants for the top cylinder, etc. I too witnessed drivers climb up and pour in the additives, but the ones I saw wore heavy gloves - 1 gallon or whatever they add in 10,000 may not sound like much, but that is totally dependent on the concentration, no? Fuel additives sold for consumer use have to be much less powerful, to allow for the "titration-challenged" folks who cannot figure out that adding a whole bottle to 1/4 tank is not quite what "4 ozs in 15 gallons" means.

There are at least two approaches to the issue of cleanliness*, and there is noudoubt that the amount of additives in most fuels is way below the level stipulated or recommended by state EPA's, and consequently, not effective if the fuel system is compromised by the residue of oxygenates or the varnishes formed when old gasoline breaks down. Chevron is generally pretty high, as is the new Shell premium.

*
1) Continuous cleaning: Use highly titrated additives on a continuous basis, to keep deposits down. An example of this is Red Line's SI-2, which meets BMW's levels of detergent additives based on its analysis of US fuels. It is a fairly weak cleaner designed to be used in every tankful.

2) Cyclical cleaning: This involves periodic cleaning using one of the stronger consumer products, or one of the professional cleaners which tie into the fuel injector feed rail(s) via the Schrader connector. OTC products that are good are Red line SI-1, Pennzoil Regane, and Techron. I posted on the chemistry of these products in a link in the 3G Garage for those that are interested. (Many are just kerosene and perhaps some petro distillates - others, like Techron, use costly amines).

 

Road Rage: I have seen them use automatic transmission fluid fed through the fuel rail to clean injectors.

Is that a good idea?

 

Xpiditor: Who is "them"? They are obviously not living in the 21st century.

This is an old trick from the carburetor days - it is based on the high detergency of ATF. It worked fine in the days before closed-loop cat systems. But Marvel Oil was a better solution - ATF was handy. If one had let the carb and fuel system get so jammed up that putting ATF into the intake was necessary, it was likely that the old Turbo 400 was leaking, and there would be a quart or two of Dexron II laying about.

I think it is a very bad idea if you are talking about feeding the fuel rail while the engine is running. ATF has high amounts of silicones, as de-foaming agents. The unburned ATF will pass straight into the catalytic converters, and could damage the oxygen sensors in my opinion. Look at a package of Permatex silicone sealers - you will see that they make specific "low-volatility" ones that say "safe for oxygen sensors". There is also the possibility of damaging the rare metals in the cat itself.
http://www.autosite.com/garage/encyclop/ency13b.asp

I posted on safe and effective fuel system additives - I would stick with that.

If one's injectors are gummed up, then I would use one of the aftermarket professional systems, that attaches through the Schrader valve or its equivalent on the rail. They contain very concentrated and strong chemicals. Then there is always the walnut shell approach - very effective for de-carbonizing intake valves and deposits on the heads.

A good article on the topic:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...79/ai_63666422

 

I found Exxon and Gulf to be the worst gas I have ever put in any car I've owned. I use Sunoco and Mobil because they are conveniently located but they also gave me no problems.

 

i use sunoco ultra 94 almost all the time and switch it up with some shell v powere once in a while ... citgo when im in dire need

 

i had a 1967 Pontiac GTO and my engine builder swore by Marvel. what's your take on Marvel Oil for today's engines?

 

I only go with the big brands here in nyc. Exxon, Mobil, Shell, Sunoco and Amaco.

 

I was told by my dealer that Acura doesn't recommend adding any fuel additives. Who's right?

 

In general I would avoid additives; however, a 20 ounce container of Chevron's Techron in the fuel tank every 5000 or 10000 miles is a good preventative measure for keeping those injectors functioning as they should. Road Rage's comment about doing it right before an oil change has merit.

 

The Dallas area seems to get all there gas from the same tank farms
There is a huge one in Grand Prarie, and you can watch all brands of
fuel trucks loading up there. The only difference around here
should simply be the additives that each brand may add.

I bet this is the case for most of the larger urban areas.

 

I have an 04 TL A-Spec and also use Sunoco Ultra 94. It has consistantly proven itself better than Mobil 93 and certainly better than that Shell V-Power. A full tank of Sunoco 94 for some reason gives me better mileage and improves torque power on my TL.

 

 

I don't see drivability issues but there are cleanliness issues. See this report. http://www.toptiergas.com/

 

I've been using Costco gas for 7 years. Absolutely no problems in any of my vehicles, including my TL. I've seen tanker trucks from Mobil, Shell, Marathon (OH), and Chevron at Costco refilling the underground tanks.

Depending on which way the wind is blowing, I've found Costco gas to be anywhere from 2 cents/gallon cheaper....all the way up to 40 cents/gallon cheaper than any of the other places around me.

It's Costco for me.....all the way.

 

I've been using BP (Amoco, Standard Oil) for about 4 years now. Used regular (octane 87) in my Malibu, silver (octane 89) in my Altima, and gold (octane 93) in my TL.

When I originally made the switch from Citgo to BP with the Malibu, there was a significantly noticible change in performance; for the better, of course. And since then, I've stuck with BP... I live about 2 minutes away from the BP refineries.

 

To add to what others have said...check out Top Tier Gasoline Info and the retailers that support the initiative. Apparently this was designed by, BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi. Acura recommends using a gas station that is part of the Top Tier Network. You can check out the link I posted (which goes right to the list of retailers)...or see below:

QuikTrip
Chevron
Conoco
Phillips
76
Shell
Entec Stations
MFA Oil Company
Kwik Trip/Kwik Star
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
Chevron-Canada
Aloha Petroleum
Tri-Par Oil Company
Shell-Canada
Texaco
Petro-Canada
Sunoco-Canada

Personally, I use Shell Premium V-Power gasoline. I've been a long time Shell customer since I started driving (I used to have a Shell gas card that I got points on). Then I switched to Speedway for the 'Speedy Rewards'. Now that I've got my TL, I switched back to Shell.

 

no BP gas station?

 

When I used to drive my A4, I sometimes had a problem with my car starting (it turned over for a second or two too long). When I took it in to the dealership to get serviced...the service department foreman advised me to stick with Chevron gas, exclusively. I really don't know that it helped or not, so after about a month, started filling up at other gas stations. I have always used the bigger companies, i.e. Chevron, Mobil, 76, and Shell, only.

 

Yeah, we talked about that before in another thread...from BP's website:

Does Amoco Ultimate premium fuel meet the automakers’ “Top Tier” standard?

Amoco Ultimate premium fuels exceed Top Tier requirements with respect to its detergent additive treatment. BP believes that consumer interests are best served when the automotive and oil industries work cooperatively to determine the optimal mix of vehicle hardware and fuel standards.


*I just added that info to this thread b/c it was in the 3G TL Garage, so I thought it'd be helpful to update it.

 

The only gas that goes into my 07 TL-S w/Navi comes 4rm chevron with techron and only 93. I paid that much money for the car why not take car of it.

 

The only gas that goes into my 07 TL-S w/Navi comes 4rm chevron with techron and only 91. I paid that much money for the car why not take car of it.

 

Techron, eh?

Have a look at the MSDS (material safety data sheet). The gov. requires these MSDS to be freely available in case of accidental spill or human ingestion, etc. They have to disclose the ingredients and known safety and environmental hazards therein. Anyway, it's mostly "naphtha" which according to wikipedia is nothing more than petroleum ethers. The next largest component is 1,2,4-trimethylbenzene which is another flammable item as are xylene, and 1,3,5-trimethylbenzene (the other ingredients). A chemical engineer friend told me that none of these ingredients are considered a detergent. The only thing in there we don't know about is "01154100-5007P" which is considered a 'trade secret' so that might be the detergent.

 

Somebody on the forums experimented with techron additives and, physically saw the spray of fuel becoming a fine mist once techron was added...