I've driven German cars for 20 years and am seriously considering switching to an Acura TL. My question is this, other than reliability, what reasons to you feel were the most compelling in your decision to switch?

I'm nearing the end of my warranty on an Audi A6 4.2 and find the new Audi's styling questionable at best. The 5 series Bmrs I drove of old are long gone and if I wanted to drive a car that looks like a Pontiac, I'd just buy one.

Any comments most appreciated.

 

Is there any other reason than reliabilty. That is why I switched to Honda Products.

 

Go into the driver's seat on the TL and ask yourself if it doesn't feel "german". It ooooozes theivery of all things great from Europe. (Except the wood, of course.) Audi has the finest interiors of all the majors imho, and this beats 'em all except them. Especially what BMW is passing off as "standard" quality. Love the TL interior....ebony and parchment RULE!

 

I owned a Scirocco once. My wife drives a Passat. I traded in an A4 (1.8T) for my TL.

The TL is powerful and loaded with features, and it has a quiet, luxurious ride.

However, the steering is over-boosted, the leather struck me as cheap, the paint is crap, and the car rattles.

After three months and six thousand miles I traded in my TL on a new Jetta VR6 -- I've never been happier.

The TL's a hot car, and a lot of people asked me how I liked it. My standard answer was that it really depends on what you're used to driving. As a German car owner, I was not happy with it. But I think most Accord owners would enjoy driving it.

 

I drove a '01 S4 and got rid of it as soon as my lease was up. RELIABILITY and PRICE are the biggest reasons I switched. I owned a 1990 Legend coupe before the Audi and the only reason I got rid of it was because I got bored with it. Reliability was never a question with that Acura.

 

My preference tends to be American first, simply because I am one. But then again, I will buy what I like at the time I'm in the market regardless of brand or whatever.

That said, my wife has a 1996 BMW 328i and if it is a good example of German (or just BMW) quality and technology, than I'm not impressed. The TL wins hands down against her car and in all areas to boot. Perhaps, as was pointed out to me by another member, I should compare an '04 330i to the TL to be more fair, but for about $10K more, I just don't see the difference. If I was going to go that route, I'd go with a Z06 Corvette (or the new C6), or maybe a CTS-V Cadillac. So real serious machinery.

Bottom line. Do a test drive. Better yet, find a friend who has one and get them to take you out for a while.

 

Wait until you put a few years on your Jetta. You'll be regretful that all you complained about on the TL was the over-boosted steering, the leather seats, the paint and the rattles. Your Jetta will start breaking down mechanically and your repair bills will soar into the stratosphere. Within the past year I've had two co-workers buy Jettas, against my advice, and already one of them is regretting it.

I had three VW's. The 1979 Rabbit lasted 167,000 miles with one engine rebuild (valve train, which was common on that car...manually adjusted valves). The 1986 Golf lasted 165,000 miles and was traded because it was hit and damaged pretty badly. The 2000 Golf was my last one. It blew its transmission at 83,000 miles...left me stranded. The transmission was replaced under warranty, but after that things just started breaking, some more than once. You know it's getting to be too much when all the service writers at the VW dealer know you by your first name.

Hondas and Acuras are reliable where it counts: mechanically. If you take a look at Consumer Reports' frequency-of-repair data, you see the difference between Japanese cars and German cars. It's not just VW's, although that's my personal experience. Considering what Audis, Benzes and BMW's (and now some VW's, like the Phaeton and the Touareg) cost, they should be placing much higher on the reliability scale. It's very disconcerting to see $80,000 cars rated "much worse than average" for reliability.

 

Last year, we spent over $4000 for repairs, maintenance, adjustments, and miscellaneous fixes on my wife's BMW. This year has been good to use.. just $1000.. so far. BMW just does some weird things. Like the wheel lug nuts. There aren't any. They are lug bolts. Real fun when re-installing a wheel from a flat or tire rotation. Or the fact that the tail lights have no wires connecting to the sockets. They use two separated metal plates, or dissimilar metal, to conduct current for the lamps. Needless to say, that fact that they are dissimilar metals meanings from time to time, proper contact fails and a light or two also fails. Or try changing the spark plugs. More fun. Now I don't dislike BMW. I just don't see what all the fuss is about. Especially when you can get a 'Vette and clean an M3 or M5's clock.

To contrast this with the most reliable car I've ever owned, a 1988 Ford Mustang LX 302CID which I owned for 6 years (sorry I sold it) and not including normal maintenance (tune-ups, oil changes, etc.) I spent all of $357.05.

 

I'm coming out of 2000 VW Passat 4Motion Variant and before that a 1990 BMW 735iA. My switch to the Acura TL was prompted by reliability first of all (having owned an Accord and now a Pilot, both were my wife's cars by the way) but a very close second was dollar value. I considered a new Passat, but don't like the current styling of it and the new Passat is still a ways off. I have been quite pleased with the TL from the stand point of how solid it feels on the road and the ride and handling quality.

 

I was a huge German Car lover. I had a '98 528i and the maintenance costs alone are very high, especially on items that should never break or die during the entire life of the vehicle.

I had the following replaced or fixed. Many happened while I was still under warranty, but it was stll a total pain in the ass. The ones that happened out of warranty were also quite pricey.

new MID (multi-functional display) - it flaked out.
replaced right rear window regulator (the cable and motor system that operates the power window) - failed.
replace left taillight assembly - no taillight wiring - uses a metal template for carrying current to the bulbs - was causing fuses to blow after getting any condensation or water in that area.
replaced thermostat gasket - was causing air bubbles to enter coolant system causing spikes in temp.
replaced turn signal stalk - while in center position, it was always having right turn signal on (could never turn on left turn signal) - was told it was worn out - a turn signal stalk wearing out?!
replaced left rear window regulator - failed in the down position when raining
fixed sunroof - decided to stop lifting its rear for venting.

And I was plagued with a ton more gremlins that whenever I got to the dealership, they were unable to recreate (audio cutouts, blinkers that wouldn't turn off in the cluster, etc.)

Seat memory, nor power telescoping steering wheel never functioned properly.

Don't get me wrong, the engineering is great, but they have a alot to learn about marrying the engineering and the technology. The later model bimmers definitely do not run as long as those tried and true old ones.

Interesting about the comment of the Pontiac. We were on our way to a family event and were driving from Detroit to Chicago. As I am cruising in the TL at 80-85mph, I saw the new BMW 6 Series coupe. As I was passing him, I thought it looked ok, then I saw the front and both myself and my wife commented how it looked like a Pontiac front end.

I really do not like the new styling of the BMW models (I prefer the 97-03 BMW styling), and if you are going to pay a premium for a car, not only should you get their great engineering, you should get their working luxury features as well - ones that should never fail.

I have several friends with Acura's, a brother with an Infiniti, a father with a Lexus, and I did have a 91 Nissan 300ZX during my bachelor days - and the Asian carmakers - especially their luxury brands - have proven themselves in the performance, durability, longevity, quality, innovation, and technology aspects of their cars.

 

My first foreign cars were new 1978 Honda Civic (Wife's) and 1978 Scirocco. VW was sold after about 18 months due to electrical problems that they didn't seem to be able to fix. Scirocco seemed to be much better construction but I have no need for a car that leaves me stranded. We kept the problem free Honda for 11 years including the last few with my then young son abusing it.

Wife got 1988 VW Quantum GL5 (Audi 5 Cyl engine). Needed water pump in less than 90 days. Repeatedly required window regulators and front end work. Temperature gage lived right up near red most of the time, trided everything including new radiator, nothing seemed to work. After 10 years of mild driving and to many repairs we bought an MDX.

From the Scirocco I went to an Audi 5000, needed a clutch assembly @ 105K ($650 + two weeks transit from Germany). Shortly thereafter needed a $1000 steering rack, goodbye 5000. But it sure ran and handled nice and looked good.

Next, a 4000 Quattro; $4000 in repairs in a 20 month period. I guess I was just a sucker for a pretty face. Getting smarter, bought a 1994 Acura Legend.

I have been lusting after a BMW for years. Almost bought one just before I got my TL. First I couldn't come to grips with a luxury car that charges a premium price for a stripper then charges more for everything including paint (if not black or white). Might have purchasd it anyway but everyone I talked to loved it except for the various mechanical problems.

My 3 day old TL 5AT will out perform a 330, has more interior space, more great stuff and will likely give me a lot fewer problems. I'm sure I made a great decision.

 

I had a modded 1998 VW VR6. Not bad. I didn't have nearly the same number of problems other VW owners have had.

 

After owning 2 Audi's, I appreciate the engineering the handling German car's seem to be famous for. The thing I didn't like were the constant trips to the repair shop. There is no excuse for everyday items like window regulators, headlights, radiator's, water pumps, airconditioner compressor's, and CV joints failing after only a year or so. None of these car's made it past 100,000 miles before the repair cost started to take it's toll on my budget. After the first Audi, I thought the re-design and warranty would make the second car more tolerable, but the problems persisted and I gave up. My first Acura was a used Legend, and it never broke. I finally ended up getting into an accident, and the car was going to be out of service for 6 weeks during the repair, so I purchased a 2001 TL. That car was replaced after only 1400 miles with a TLS. I drove the TLS for nearly 3 years without one repair, and traded it for the 04TL 6MT. I've never had ANYTHING fail with any of the 4 Acura's I've owned...NOTHING! If you need a German car..by all means get one. My major concern these day's is having a nice car that doesn't need constant attention. I'm too busy to spend my time at the repair shop, even if it's a warranty item. Honda products are reliable and that's what matters to me most these days. After owning 4 Acura's, I don't believe my experience is just chance, they DON'T BREAK!

 

Oops. I wrote,

"To contrast this with the most reliable car I've ever owned, a 1988 Ford Mustang LX 302CID which I owned for 6 years (sorry I sold it) and not including normal maintenance (tune-ups, oil changes, etc.) I spent all of $357.05."


I forgot something! The $357.05 I spent was for a fully factory OEM exhaust with the 4 cats. One of the cats had self-destructed. Shortly after I bought and installed the exhaust, I received a recall notice. I contacted a dealer and was told that if I could provide a receipt showing my purchase, Ford would re-imburse me in full. I did this and Ford sent me a check for the full amount.

So the actual costs moves to $0.

 

In about 15 minutes I am returning my end-of-lease 01 Audi A6 4.2 to the dealer. While having better reliability than the 2 BMW's I have owned in the past, it still stunk compared to the 2 Lexus Coupes and first-year Honda Accord I have owned. And four of the times it went in for service, it had to go right back in for the dealer to fix the problem or complete the repair.

I bought a TL after looking at the usual suspects - 3 and 5 series BMW's, M. Benz's, 4 and 6 Series Audi's. The TL is certainly the equal of any of the entry level of the 'premium' makes and 90 to 95% the equal of the higher end models. Looking at the price difference and the reliability along with the poor-service I have received from the German brands, the decision to go with the TL was a no-brainer.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and presume that as a 20-year German car owner, you're already familiar with German car service requirements. If your chief complaint w/ German cars is the service experience, then you will see some reliability benefits, but those tend to be over-rated here.

For example, your Audi maintenance is paid for. Not just warranty work, but oil changes, wiper blades -- everything. Not so with the TL. You're going to have to factor in $300-400/yr on the Acura that you don't spend on your Audi.

There's another aspect to Acura service -- it's not like working w/ Audi. When I had complaints, the Audi dealer (and VW, too) took notes cheerfully, and called me when it was done. If they couldn't find the problem, at least the Audi dealer fixed or replaced something in an attempt to help. With the TL, it was like dealing with a Honda dealer. I felt like I had to prove my car had a problem, and if they couldn't duplicate it the day I was there I was out of luck.

But if you're driving German cars because of the driving experience -- the ride, the tight feel, the precision steering, the unflappable stability -- the TL will come up short. It's good, mind you -- far better than any American cars, but it won't come close to the Audi. (Please don't flame me, guys, I really tried.)

BTW, hydroplaning in a TL is a heart-stopping experience. Nothing that scary ever happened in my A4.

 

I went from an 04 330I coupe with SMG transmission to my TL. This is the best move I have ever made. While your "work" is paid for under warranty, my time is worth more than an extra 300 a year. I was at BMW 5 times in 4 months. This was my 3rd BMW. I will never own another. The TL is faster, roomier, more comfy, quieter, better gas mileage, and great sound and Nav. The BMW did handle better, but who needs to do 90 around a hairpin curve, I am happy with the 60 my TL will handle it.

 

1. Things are a bit overated (biased) here at Acurazine towards Acura cars (hmmm).

2. Never had a problem with my 1990 Legend (245K miles). European dealers always took notes cheerfully because of the amount of money they can charge...heck I will be cheerfull to if I can charge the $1500 just to do preventive maintenance (My 2002 Range Rover)...no flaming invovled here.

3.Your comaprison with Audi vs TL is like compring apples to oranges. Comparing RWD to FWD. Of course RWD is always preferred for that matter I will match Audi A4 vs G35 or Lexus IS300 and hands down I still vote Japanese.

 

Audi has been FWD for many years and now AWD is their big thing. But of course a AWD vehicle will generally handle better than a vehicle that's strictly FWD or RWD. That's just a given reality.

What I find with Euro cars, for the most part, is that they're over engineered. They tend to like to make things more complicated, and therefore more expensive, than needed. They are also far more demanding of more frequent, and usually more expensive, maintenance. I learned that from owning a couple of BMW's, Volkswagen's, and (ecccch!) a SAAB.

Look at the current reliability statistics of Euro brands and they are in the basement, even below American vehicles, because of the excessive complexity that's built into them.

A TL is not a simplistic vehicle by any means. It definitely has some sophisticated electronics and engineering in it. But Honda and Toyota have done far better at baking reliability, both short and long term, into their processes and products than either European or American companies have.

It's an imperfect world to be sure. But some things come closer to perfection than others and a TL is one of those things that comes closer.

 

i worked mercedes service for years, yes i like a benz, but for bang for the buck, quality and "reliability" the TL wins hands down in vehicles close to its price range, still for 05 mb does not offer bluetooth phones, you still have to buy the luxury motorola phone (which is outdated soon) and pay approx $2300.00 to have it with voice activation installed in the vehicle, on the other hand my wifes v505 was $250.00 and the car came with the phone, there are just things like that, i've had an acura since 1998 - i had a 1998 CL3.0 a 2001 CL Type-S and now the 04 TL, they have all been great, i reccomend them highly

german engineering is still good, problem is the suppliers quality has gone down in there componants

i showed the mb rep my TL also showed him the phone, he said nice car those japanese think of everything. he couldn't believe a car costing that much had a phone built in standard

 

I came out of a 2002 Audi A4 quattro, had the TL (fondly referred to as crap wagon/rattle trap) and promptly went back to a Benz last week.

 

which model benz? and i'm sorry to hear that

 

Acura_service.

I bought a C230 Sport Sedan. I have given up a little power (ok, a lot, but speed i what my VFR is for) for build quality, rear wheel drive, precise steering, and that Benz "bank vault" solidity....the Acura rattles and build quality were driving me (and thus all of my friends/family) crazy.

Which aprillia do you have?

Rick

 

To Cpurick;

You wrote,

"It's good, mind you -- far better than any American cars". I have to disagree there, but then again, it would depend upon what was being used as criteria. I like performance sedans with manual transmissions and right now, cars like the TL go to the head of the class. But there are a host of American machines that are right up there in terms of quality and performance which is great for all of us.


To kosh2258;

I know you said, "But of course a AWD vehicle will generally handle better than a vehicle that's strictly FWD or RWD. That's just a given reality". As long as you really mean generally, I can buy that. But if you mean serious, I can't agree. Otherwise Corvettes and Porches and Ferraris would be rushing to offer AWD and NASCAR and formula 1 and road racers would be busting their butts to get AWD into the mix. But none of that's happening. I don't like AWD because I'm not willing to give up the power to turn gears and clutches in a transfer case and the halfshafts, axles, and wheels that are connected. I want as much power as I can get going through two drive wheels.

 

the 203's are much better compared to the first years they were out, the first two years alot of bas/esp lights (wiring modification resistor bulliten) then there was the occasional bas module, you should be ok with a new one, i did notice that my cl had a much heavier door - it was bigger but it felt alot heavier, all the benz's always had that bank vault feel when closing the doors, except the new 211 (E class) the doors don't have that feel, but we won't go into the new E i like the styling but prefer the 210 body over it way more

i have a 2001 aprilia Mille flat black/red, its for sale, was an awsome bike, but i'm buying a 2005 R Factory in the spring, i can't wait to get it, going to add acculign rearsets, tigcraft 60mm cans, and a race airbox, also ditching the stock pirelli's for dunlop 208gp's

 

My folks are looking at an E55, i agree, some stuff in that car feels a little suspect. I like the refresh on the 203, esp. with the sport package.

I am officially envious of your Italians. If Honda weren't my client, I would buy and Aprilia, but they frown upon riding up on a non-honda to meetings and events.

Rick

 

Your happy is going from a TL to a Jetta??? Now that's a first! My girfriend has a fully loaded 1.8T Passat auto, and while its a nice car and feels pretty solid, its maybe a tenth of what the TL is.

 

E55 is a different animal altogether, (Drool.....) we just got in a CL65, now that is one fast mother, i can't wait to see the SLR

 

Too bad you aren't out here on the west coast, Fletcher Jones and W.I. Simonson both have silver SLR's on their floor.....I thought it was ugly in pictures, having seen it, I now feel differently...HOT.

 

i drove a jetta VR6 once, forget the fact that all i see is women driving them and just for that reason wouldn't buy one, but it left me wanting.......................something other than a jetta VR6

alot of my friends had volkswagons, they were tired of knowing the service department guys on a first name basis

 

fletcher jones, very big dealer, we won't get our first one for a few months yet

 

FJ also has 3 Maybachs sitting on the showroom floor...being the largest M-B reatailer in the world has its priveleges!

 

yes, we didn't go with the maybach, not much interest here, mainly some parts of nj, ny, west coast miami places like that, not northeast pa, plus you had to build a seperate building all that stuff, we sell alot of ml's and g wagons though, plus a boatload of S's

 

I saw a new A6 on the road the other day and all I can say is it's *&@#$%*&@#$*@# AWESOME LOOKING!!!!!

What'choo talkin' 'bout willis????

 

I've only owned American-made Japanese and Japanese cars. When I met my wife, she had a Volkswagen (being from Germany and all). From reading the mags, I knew they are crap but she wanted to keep it. Sure enough, by 50,000 miles, her Jetta started falling apart - burnt out clutch, burnt out lights (how often do you see "one-eyed" Volkswagens?!!!), cracked air-filter box!?, leaking roof (somewhere) that deposited water into the trunk (which the dealer denied and sure enough it dried out every time), finally a small part inside the steering wheel that set off the airbag warning light - this part was ONLY available from Volkswagen through a dealer and cost a whopping $520 installed. We had to replace that one so we could sell the car FINALLY with a functioning air bag.

Her mother bought a new 2003 A4 that had the distributor problem (like thousands others) and broke down with 2,000 on on the odometer.

Would I lease one? Probably - if you could find the right one - and I drove the 3's and 5's before getting the TL. Would I own one after the warranty is up - NO WAY.

 

The 03 A4's had coil pack problems, not distributor. If you look on these boards, Acura's have had issues with coil packs as well. At the same time Audi was having problems with coil packs, BMW was as well, it was a supplier issue. Audi was very upfront about replacing them, when they had sufficient supplies. Upfront is all I care about, instead of AHM burrying their head in the sand and insisting their cars are known for reliability.

 

the older ones had igniter problems

 

for your input, a very interesting read.

BTW, I got the car!

 

nice, what color?

 

NBP on Ebony, love it!