I am looking at getting the TL 5AT but want to know how much I will be giving up in handling (body lean, speed through "s" curves, ...) vs. the 6MT.

If anyone has driven both and has feedback I would appreciate it.

Also if anyone has info from car publication road tests of the 5AT that give handling performance (lateral accelerataion, slalom speed, ...) I'd be interested in that as well.

 

You're kidding, right? There's no difference whatsover between 5AT and 6MT in terms of suspension or anything else that would affect handling. The only difference is transmission and brakes. So 6MT is going to have a shorter braking distance, that's it.

 

the 5AT and 6MT are identical except for the tranny and brakes. i cannot imagine one to handle better than the other. Maybe over repeated hard braking on the track the 6MT will peform better. when i say better i mean more consistent. also since its a manual tranny when you take the car through turns you might have better exiting acceleration out of the turn. since its a 6MT you can jump jump between each gear freely and hold one as long as you want. you can do the same on the slushbox but the reponse will be a little slower. if this translates into better handle to you then the 6MT is better. but if you are wondering if the manual can hold more g's then i doubt it.

 

Actually, there IS a difference. The TL brochure list the front sway bars of the 6MT at 27.2x5.0mm while the 5AT is 25.4x4.5mm and the rears are 20.0mm for the 6MT and 17.0mm for the 5AT. This would mean that the 6AT has less roll and would corner better. Considering that the 6MT has stiffer sway bars front and back, it would indicate to me that it will still understeer at the limit but that the limit is slightly higher than that of the 5AT.

dsc888

 

Check your specs. Slightly larger sway bars on the 6MT. May not have major effect on handling but there is a difference.

 

the difference in sway bar sizes might be a compensation for the added weight of the auto transmission.

 

The 6MT has the larger sway bar, not the 5AT.

 

Along with the larger sway bars, the 6MT has the 030 tires vs. the EL42s...I'd have to think that would make a difference also (on dry pavement of course)

Wicked.

 

I found the throttle of 6mt to be more responsive than the 5at. Not by much, but by enough to notice. That will, of course, affect your handling, at least at the margins (i.e. driving on the twisties).

 

The 6MT does not come with the HPT RE030 option from the factory, it is an option.

Other than the sway bar noted above, the only other relevant difference I am aware of is the extra weight of the automatic, which is around 100 pounds heavier than a comparable 6MT, IIRC. That weight may also contribute to a little more front-bias in the automatic car, but I don't know that for sure.

 

The other difference is the LSD that is present in the 6MT and not the 5AT. Many magazines and sites (TOV) have attributed the LSD to injecting torque steer like characteristics. This is actually what is causing the pulling that has been described.

 

I would have mentioned the LSD, but the jury is apparently still out on whether this is an improvement or not.

 

The 6 speed cars have larger front and rear anti-roll bars.

 

You're kidding...right?

The MANUAL car has SIGNIFICANTLY more bar - front and rear - and it's also LIGHTER.

Stabilizer Bar

Automatic
Front: 1.0 in. diameter (25.4 mm) x (4.5 mm)
0.18 in. wall thickness
Rear 0.67 in. diameter, solid (17.0 mm)

Manual
Front: 1.07 in. diameter (27.2 mm) x (5.0 mm)
0.20 in. wall thickness
Rear: 0.79 in. diameter, solid (20 mm)

 

6MT handles better. Transmission in the 6MT is much lighter which reduces overall weight and improves weight distribution. Brembos, LSD, bigger sway bars, tire pressures - it all adds up. Summer tire option would make it even better.

All in all, the difference is not enough to be a decision maker if you have doubts about getting a stick. If you hate the 6MT, you won't care that the car handles a bit better. Both cars feel great to drive. I would just focus on the stick vs. auto part of the equation.

You should drive them both yourself...it's your 32K...

 

From Acura's website:

Curb Weight
Automatic: 3575 lb (1617 kg) (without Navigation System)
Manual: 3482 lb (1575 kg) (without Navigation System)

That's 93 pounds....

Weight distribution for EITHER car doesn't remotely resemble the ideal "50/50."

The 6 speed's larger diameter anti-roll bars are more significant than the 93 pounds of weight.

 

The 6MT car gear ratio is much higher than 5AT, so pickup and accelaration is better.

 

That's not true.

Gear Auto. Manual

1st 2.563 3.933

2nd 1.552 2.478

3rd 1.021 1.700

4th 0.666 1.250

5th 0.480 0.975

6th --- 0.770


Final Drive 4.428 3.285

 

While the original post may have been somewhat inartfully worded on the subject of gear ratio, the above numbers don't really tell the story until you do the math to figure out the effective gear ratio in each particular gear.

In other words, in 1st gear you have an effective gear ratio equal to 3.933:1 x 3.285:1.

BTW, 3.285:1 is higher than 4.428:1. Remember the number is the expression of a ratio. A higher number actually means a lower gear ratio.

 

Yes, 93 pounds, improved weight distribution, improved sway bars, improved brakes, an LSD, tire pressures. Fortunately for us it comes with all of them, so there is no real need to determine which is the greatest contributor to the 6MT's improved handling.

 

Yes...I'll "remember" that.

 

93 pounds equates to ~ 13 gallons of gasoline.

How much different does YOUR car feel when the tank is "full" versus 4 gallons from "Empty?" :think:

 

BTW:

In order to figure out the TRUE (overall) ratio in each gear you have to MULTIPLY the gear ratio X the final drive ratio.

EXAMPLE:

Overall Ratio in 1st:

Auto: 2.563 X 4.428 = 11.35:1

Manual: 3.933 * 3.285 = 12.9:1

Of course, the automatic has a TORQUE CONVERTER, while the manual does NOT. Once you factor in the converter's TORQUE MULTIPLICATION, the auto is at least as aggresively "geared" as the manual!

http://www.halfahemi.com/fastatx/html/a-benifit.htm

"The torque converter in an auto trans is sort of like the clutch in a manual trans. However, it can do a pretty neat trick, which is to multiply torque. All geared trans, manual and automatic, multiply torque in the lower gears through gear multiplication (gearing is lower than direct drive of 1:1, which usually appears around 3rd in an auto if a 4 speed and 4th in a manual if a 5 speed). The torque converter multiplies torque by slipping. This is sort of like slipping a clutch on a manual, except that it occurs without damage to the clutch and flywheel. It is designed to slip. Torque converters usually have a multiplication rate in the 1.5 to 2.2 range."

 

Answer: Not very different.

 

Not this fucking guy again

 

Are you sure of that? I read somewhere that the manual version had stiffer anti-roll bars as well.

Having said all that, after reading all the reviews I could find, I bought the AT version. Moreover, I traded a (manual) Subaru WRX and this is the first car I have ever bought for myself with an automatic. Frankly, after reading up on the two versions, I felt that there were certain advantages to going with the auto. I haven't changed that view since (which is just a bit amazing since I have long been a died in the wool manual fan).

I can't say for sure just how much faster the manual might be over a given section of road, but I strongly suspect that there is a MUCH greater difference between the abilities of the drivers than there would be between the suspension of the manual version and the auto version.

Just another point of view...
<TED>

 

It doesn't have the 030s as standard -- they are an extra cost option. An AT owner can go that route too (or an even better route)...

Regards,
<TED>

 

The difference in weight between the auto and the 6 speed TLs is equal to ~ 13.5 gallons of gasoline.

In other words, there's not much difference.

The 6 speed's car LARGER ANTI-ROLL BARS are the main ingredient to that car's added "sharpness."

 

93 pounds makes a bigger difference than you might suspect. FWD cars are an inherently unbalanced platform. The more weight you can remove off the heavier end the better the overall weight distribution will be. why do you think people go through all the trouble of putting their heavy batteries in the trunk. It's not for looks, its for better weight distribution.

Having and empty tank of gas is even worse. You have taken weight off the wrong end. With a full tank of gas, eventhough you heavier, the overall weight on the chassis is more balanced.

You might say this is only fine and dandy for the track but really it helps in real life. Say for instance to are driving down the Highway and you need to make an emergency move and to swerve and miss that jerk that swerved into your lane. This will upset your chassis. Having a front heavy light a$$ end car is going to give you a tough time trying to keep it under control. A more neutral stable weight distribution allows your to recover the vehicle more easily. this could very well be the difference between spininng out and getting hit by another car or carrying on to your destination.

 

The auto car would be virtually indistinguishable from the manual car in terms of overall handling - IF both cars were fitted with the same tires and the same anti-roll bars.

 

And he's taken to answering his own posts because no one was interested.

Mike

 

Put a 93 pound person in the passenger seat of a TL 6 speed, drive the car and them tell me all about the huge difference. (That would be even WORSE than the difference in tranny weight because it would also raise the center of gravity.)

And the "inherently unbalanced platform" comment is balls-on; that's why REAL performance cars are REAR WHEEL DRIVE!

 

93 pounds equates to ~ 13 gallons of gasoline.
How much different does YOUR car feel when the tank is "full" versus when it's 4 gallons from "Empty?" Answer: Not very different.

Congratulations. You've started and ended your own argument here. No one ever disputed your assertions, just their relevence to the topic at hand.

Last week you were griping with me that 30 lbs of "circus wagon aero crap" was detrimental to performance. No 93 lbs of weight, off the front end of a FWD car, does not have a positive effect on handling? If you want to argue, start from there.

I always loved the circus!

 

That 30 pounds or aero crap is TOTALLY USELESS!

The same can't be said for an automatic tranny; they actually SERVE A FUNCTIONAL PURPOSE!

 

Any chance we can get the admin to permanently ban this guy? (harddrivin1le) Ban his IP too, so he doesn't come back as someone else. He's really ruining the enjoyment of an otherwise excellent site.

 

93 lbs of weight off the front of a FWD car improves handling. It improves the balance of the car from 61.4/38.6 to 60.1/39.9. The two components of handling that are improved here are total vehicle weight and weight balance.

 

Then why did you buy a FRONT WHEEL DRIVE CAR in the first place?!

Neither version remotely approaches the "ideal" 50/50.

But EITHER version (auto or manual) displays heavy understeer and is under-damped.

A autoTL with an empty gas tank it going to essentially weigh the same and have the same weight distribution as an manual TL with a full tank.

Thus, the "huge" difference in weight distribution you're talking about would be fully evident in the 6 speed car (empty vs full gas tank).

 

Dude, why are you even quoting me in your post. I did not take a stance on this post one way or the other regarding to the bullshit above. Please do not trick yourself into believing that you will have any chance of impressing me with anything that you might know about any given subject. You must be the internet version of someone who likes to hear themselves speak. Ironically, I'm sure that you barely communicate verbally, and probably lack control of the rest of your body when you do.

Good night

 

Yep, this thread is about to go down the same old road to Hell again. I'm done.

Cerrato, hope you got some good info. Sounds like you don't need more data - which is where this thread is about to go. Drive 'em both and make sure to have fun making up your mind.

 

An auto TL with an empty gas tank it going to essentially weigh the same and have the same weight distribution as an manual TL with a full tank. :think: