alabonite

Or has that been corrected or maybe new tranny design.

JJH

iTrader: (1)

With 04-06, yes. 07-08 is safe.

myron

iTrader: (4)

some here and there, not like the 2G at all

nttstt444

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, nothing like the 2g tho. Like jjh said 04-06 can be prone to issues from the z1 and pressure sensors. 07/08 are pretty much trouble free.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

There are reported failures here on AcuraZine for all model years of the 3G. However, the majority of failures are from 04-06.
Personally, I have an 05 TL w/ 170k miles still on the original tranny.

JJH

iTrader: (1)

This is accurate. Logically, there should be more failures reported with the 04-06 simply because they are older vehicles and hence have more mileage, generally speaking. Being on these forums now for a couple years, I can only maybe recall one or two threads about an 07-08 TL that had transmission problems. I can recall A LOT of threads about 04-06 tranny problems. A safer bet is to get an 07-08.

leo221

according to wolfram's trade in quality index, I say problem solved in 3g. yes there are people with eaily dead transmissions, but that's true for any make and models.

http://members.wolfram.com/nickl/TIQ...tsMidsized.png

http://members.wolfram.com/nickl/

Mountaindew715

What exactly are the issues with those trannies?

YeuEmMaiMai

^ poor design mainly lack of lubrication to certain areas (for the 3 shaft design)

I hate cars

This has been discussed so many times in incredible detail.

The lube problem is isolated to the '04 and depending on who you ask, up to mid '05. This caused the locked up transmissions.

Z1 fluid which had too much friction modifier, too "slippery"

3rd and 4th gear pressure switches that cause many problems such as 3rd gear clutch failures, 4th gear and 5th as well but not as often, and even torque converter application and the shudder (in conjunction with the fluid).

3rd gear circuit exhaust restrictive. This causes third gear to apply briefly on the automatic 4-2 downshift causing 3rd and 2nd to apply at the same time. 3rd slips and loses the battle every time, causing wear.

Strength as in breaking parts is not an issue. Even the 400whp turbo TL with the stock trans and Type F fluid did not break anything and that's an early trans.

So basically, don't buy an '04 and if you do make sure it has the oil jet kit installed in the fill hole. Swap your pressure switches every 2-3 years (not by mileage). Use only a Dex III, Dex VI, or a mix of Dex III and Type F fluids. These come in dino and synthetic under many different brands. Avoid the automatic 4-2 downshift, do it manually if you have to. Following these steps will ensure a long life.

The switches and the fluid are the most important and they're cheap and easy to replace and have saved many transmissions that had the death shudder. I think many of the repeat failures where the replacement trans did not last as long as the original was due to pressure switches that were already bad being transferred to the new transmission.

I think we discovered the switches and fluid issues around '07. I remember seeing tons of threads on failing, shuddering transmissions on here and the switches and fluid saved most of them. I feel sometimes that we don't know exactly how bad the first 3G transmissions would have been because just about everyone knows to do these items before problems show up. In the first couple years people were already calling the problem solved then practically overnight tons of trans problems started showing up. I'm interested to see how the '07-'08 do in another year or two.

IIDXholic

iTrader: (5)

Mine just recently failed and was a pain in the ass. Was out since September and finally got it up and running again. I have an 06 AT, I would get a manual or Type-S 07/08 in a heartbeat if I had a time machine.

Jase13

You are good.

YeuEmMaiMai

no, it applies to any of the 5at that are based on that design. This covers TL CL Ridgeline Odyssey, etc that use this transmission. There is an AWESOME FAQ that covers the unit in the 2nd gen CL forum

it is known that sometime during the 05 production run the transmission casing was changed along with a few other things to try and correct the problem. Obviously they were only partly successful as 3rd gen cars that use the trans based off the same design are still suffering abnormally high failure rates in comparison to other cars.

The Honda Fluid isn't the problem. THE DESIGN IS.

Straight from the FAQ that contains the NHSTB report and this information was known back in 2003

during repeated shifting between 2 and 3 gears the fluid heats up to over 315F and this KILLS it (the fluid due to insufficient flow) and as a result clutch packs are toast

I have the newer designed transmission (Acura installed it in 2008) and even with fluid changes every 15K it still has issues. the replacement trans has 62K miles on it. This transmission does not require the oil jet kit

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-cl-transmission-recall-q-55/summary-very-long-whats-wrong-auto-tranny-440072/

Analysis:

… Found in the analysis of (44) 01M Acura CL, 01 & 02 TL, and 01 MDX Market Failures, 41% of these (?) has ‘Burnt third Clutches’. 39% were ‘No Trouble Found.’ The “Sport” models of the TL and CL make up the majority of all burnt third clutch failures (81.5%). (EricL Note: Hmmm, does this surprise anyone that the high-powered sporty cars are having the bulk of the problems? However, there is more info and it just keep getting better. There is a set of graphs that show that certain build dates are better than others, at least from a statistical and Acura investigation/conclusion standpoint)

New Request = 11/29/01 Find root cause for Burnt Third Clutches for the 01M Acura CL and 01 & 02M Acura TL.


Page 478:

Minutes of monthly meeting held at HRA in August 2001 (Dated below Sep 25 2001)

<01M-CL shifting problems>
- Through 01M monitoring, AEP (ANNA Engine Plant of Honda of America Mfg, Inc) received many reports alleging that the transmission had shifting problems (167 reports, 25% of all). On investigation, third clutch was found burning in 5 vehicles. The AH ‘Chet’ vehicle (a vehicle lent to Chet for monitoring purposes) has had the same problem twice. The transmission assembly, which failed after it had replaced the transmission failed first, will be sent to HGT for analysis. (The mileage was about 8,000 miles at the first failure and about 20,000 miles at the second failure. The grammar is courtesy of Acura)

end of report snippit

I have owned many a cars and outside of the TH200R4 used in a 84 Olds 98, (ironically GM fixed the issues and it is now rock solid), I have NEVER had an automatic transmission fail that wasn't in a Honda (a 98 accord 79K miles and my 02 CL-S 71K miles)

82 5th ave 380K miles
82 Cutlass Cierra 125K miles
89 Sable 200K miles
92 Sable 150K miles
1994 Honda accord 230K + and still kicking using the same so called "crappy fluid" that the newer units use
98 Honda accord V6 79K miles trans bit the bullet
02 CL type S 71K trans bit the bullet, replacement trans 61k and it has problems...

See a pattern here? They did not properly design the unit, that's it.

fsttyms1

I would highly bet this is the main reason for many or most of the failures (the PR valve)

http://www.sonnax.com/pdfs/18-Transm...sting-and-More

I hate cars

What applies? If it's the lube issue, I thought we were talking about TLs here??? Did I say it applied only to TLs?
Yep, I said the lube problem was fixed from '04-mid '05 depending on who you ask. I don't see the problem here.

Partly successful? Yes, but the failure mode changed after the case redesign. No more locked up transmissions but the 3rd gear clutches still died an early death many times. The case redesign cured the issue it was supposed to cure.

As far as "abnormally high failure rates", could you show the stats on this?
No, there are two problems and I mentioned both. The fluid is one problem, the design is another. The design led to the insufficient lube problems. The fluid and switches led to the burned clutch packs. Two separate problems.
Again, insuffient flow (your words). This is why I said don't buy an '04. With that said I don't buy the insufficient flow for the 3rd gear problems because 1.The problem remained after the case redesign and 2. 315F is not that high for fluid in the clutch packs during a shift. However, when you add slow, sloppy shifts caused by the fluid and switches, you greatly increase heat during shifts in the clutch packs. The bulk (sump) temps aren't running 315F, just the fluid in the clutch packs which I've written about many times stressing why a synthetic fluid is a good idea in an auto.
Most replacement transmissions don't require the oil jet. I was talking about original transmissions, I thought that was clear. If you're using the fact that it has 62k miles to "prove" that the lube problem fixed the clutch pack issue, I don't think that's a good argument considering plenty 2G TLs passed 100,000 miles on the original transmission and most would be pissed if their trans failed at 62k.
No surprise here. You take a faulty transmission, fluid, and switches and the higher powered and heavier cars burn them up quicker. Every problem other than the lube issues lead to slippage and more power and more weight makes it worse.

I feel like a lot was left out in the above. It's obvious Acura and the NHTSA don't know the cause of the failures and they're in panic mode trying to dig up something to give the public. Before I knew the failure mode of these cars I was reading the papers and shaking my head thinking this is a bunch of BS.
"1994 Honda with 230K" is not very descriptive. Is it a 4 banger or 6? In addition:

I've said it a million times, when they went to the electronic controls, specifically the pressure swtiches, the failures began.
1994 is before the switches were added along with the electronics that softened shifts in the name of comfort.

You can get around the crappy fluid with too much FM by firming up shifts. Every Honda product shifted firmer and quicker before the electronics. Z1 worked before the electronics because of this but helped cause failures after the addition of the electronics. The fluid requirements should have been re-evaluated when they switched over to electronics.

Last, you can't deny all of the transmissions that had the shudder and flares that were fixed with the fluid, the switches, or both. Now imagine using this fluid since it was new, wear is practically nonexistent. Anyone who as run a good fluid has seen the drastic reduction in crap on the magnet along with the fluid staying clean for an entire interval because you don't have a bunch of clutch material floating around.

And if this round is anything like last round you're going to bring up the torque converter lockup and speed sensors as electronics so I'll be specific. By electronic I mean electronics used to control shift quality, both input and outputs.

YeuEmMaiMai

Now imagine your transmission that was properly designed from the get go..

and you should know that V6 was not an option for 94 accord only 2 i4 a 130HP for the DX LX and a 145 HP for EX. V6 came in 1996 and it was a C27 with 170HP, again no transmission problems. It was not until 1998 when the redesigned 4at and 3.0L V6 game out that they started having troubles due to

1. sub par parts (bearings)
2. lack of lubrication to 2nd gear clutch pack aggravated by an internal filter that would get clogged and then totally KILL the 2nd gear clutch pack
3. Lack of lubrication to 2nd shaft... (same issue that carried over to the 5at)

funny that Honda was able to fix that 4at unit by

a. relocating the filter to be user serviceable (inline with trans cooler)
b. enlarging cooling passages for better lubrication
c. providing better spec'd bearings

btw what you "feel" and what was in the report are 2 different things... I'll take the report

and as your definition of electronically controlled does not line up with what Honda states so again that's YOUR OPINION

using a different fluid only masks the problem and having to change out pressure switches is also masking the problem. I don't see American transmissions dropping like flies with similar electronic controls...

I hate cars

More BS. I was in the industry for years. I rebuilt transmissions for a living at one time. What I have stated is not my opinion. It's from either hands on experience or from tech articles. I'll break this down when I'm in front of a computer later on.



I asked you for the stats showing the 3G has a higher than average failure rate and I see nothing.

How does replacing faulty pressure switches mask the problem? Does replacing your worn out tires mask a tire problem.

How is replacing the fluid with a better fluid that stops the shudder and soppy shifts a bandaid? The Honda fluid did not have the right frictional properties for the electronically controlled 5at behind the V6. The DexIII and DexIII/Type F mixes greatly improve shift quality and quicken shifts, drastically reducing wear. This is painfully obvious by the number of failures and the number of transmissions saved by using these fluids and new switches. Maybe you have a short memory but it wasn't that long ago people were panicking when the 3Gs started having a lot of failures and there was no cure. Instead of acting like a victim and waiting on Honda to fix the problem while our transmissions fail, Inaccurate and myself came up with a very effective and proven fix. Is it not valid on your mind because it's too cheap and too easy?

I'm sure if Honda had a TSB on more frequent switch replacement and they changed the fluid to DexIII and slapped a Honda label on it, you would be fine with it. You don't like the fact a couple azine members came up with the fix that Honda refused to do.

Show me Hondas definition of electronic controls. When the only "control" is locking up the torque converter it's not electronically controlled,'at least not to people who actually work on these things. The problem started with the electronics. I've proven it in one of the other threads, do I need to dig it up for you again?

"imagine your transmission was properly designed from the get go". Ok, let's take a good transmission and make it slip and slide into gear by adding a fluid that has too much FM and pressure switches that are way out of calibration and see how long it lasts. No transmission will last long like that. The quicker the shifts the less wear occurs. If you're going to argue that you need to do some more reading or take a class.

About your snide remark about knowing that your Accord had a 4 banger, I'm not a Honda person. I don't need to be able to recite the engine options available in every Honda product to know what's wrong with their transmissions.

With that said, you totally missed why I asked if it was a 4 banger. You wanted to brag about the mileage on the transmission but you didn't want to mention it's not a V6 model and therefore irrelevant.

Do you really think that a filter plugging was the root cause of the failures? How do you think it got plugged? There are no combustion byproducts to clog it. You have wear metals and clutch material with clutch material being the largest contributor. Do you think it's normal to end up with a plugged filter at 20-30,000 miles? There were other problems in those transmissions going on long before any filter plugged.

Last, there was at least one guy on here with a 2nd gen that read the 3G section and did the switches and fluid and it cured his transmission problems even a year later it was going fine when it would hardly drive before. I did the switches on a 2g myself along with Type F fluid because it was shuddering and slipping so badly. The guy was going to get it rebuilt but I asked him if I could do the fluid and switches. This thing would flare badly in almost every gear. After the fix it shifted completely normally. It lasted another year and a half which is surprising considering the wear that had already taken place. The biggest problems were the fluid and the switches, that's a fact. Honda fixed one problem. It was the lube problem that caused the locked up transmissions. All of the other "fixes" did nothing to stop clutch pack wear.

Jase13

Dafried

Hi All,

This is an incredible resource community thank you!

FWIW - I have 223,000 miles on my 2005 with the original transmission. I have replaced the 3rd and 4th pressure switches at about 70k and I am about to do it again along with a 3x3 flush just because.

I feel fortunate not to have had issues with mine.

Cheers!

flint

iTrader: (2)

What fluid are you using?

Scottwax

Don't know about the TL, but my '04 Accord build date is past the recall cut off line. Supposedly it was a running change during the '04 model year and mine is an 05/04 build. I bought my car from my Dad who does the maintenance by the book and the ATF was changed when it was supposed to be. Since I've had it, I've done 3 fluid changes using the new DW1 ATF which noticeably improved shift quality. Next fluid changes will be either Type F or Redline ATF. Going to do the pressure switches too. FWIW, I have 148k miles on my car.

The 4-2 downshift warning is interesting, I know on my 4th gen Accord, that's where the trouble started, flaring when the transmission shifted down to 2nd gear. I was able to stave off failure for quite a while using B&M Trick Shift ATF and tightening the cable from the throttle to the transmission. Problems started at around 120k miles, transmission didn't go out until 190k miles.

I hate cars

Interesting. The Trick Shift fluid is Type F. Nowadays type f is almost always labeled as "racing" fluid even though that is not its original purpose.

What went out first in your transmission?

Scottwax

First gear went out, which was odd since I hadn't really had any issues with it, more the flare when it downshifted into 2nd gear. Had it rebuilt, still flared on the downshift to 2nd. Then it started to leak. Took it back in, they said the front seal was leaking, next day it was the torque converter welds. Day after that, they said the front part of the case had the leak so they were going to put a different front half on it. When they did that, it wouldn't shift. Finally they said they would get one from a wrecking yard and rebuild it. No more leaks but still flared dropping into 2nd. And that's after keeping my car two weeks. Not like the first transmission but still was a problem. But I just couldn't let them keep my car again for a couple weeks since they were refusing to pay for a rental. Several months later, I get a call from my regular mechanic. He's the one I thought was going to do the rebuild, didn't know he'd farm it out. Anyway, he'd been trying to get them to make it right, and said the manager and rebuilder had been fired, a new owner was taking over in a couple weeks and if I wanted my car fixed right, I needed to get it down there. Bring it in, first thing I hear back from the new rebuilder is the transmission in my car had never been apart. They just tossed a cheap used one in to get my car out of their shop. But this time it was done right.

Never again on a rebuild, if I need a transmission, I'll find the lowest mileage, reddest fluid, newest automatic that will fit.

I hate cars

I don't blame you, that sounds like a nightmare.

Sometimes what seems like a traditional flare from slipping is when you have two gears applying at once. No way to know now but I'm convinced those that said Type F caused a flare and going back to the higher FM fluid solved the problem, it's a trans problem, probably the 3rd gear exhaust applying 2 gears at the same time and revving the engine up. With the higher FM fluid the wrong clutches don't grab hard enough to allow it to rev. This would be one of the rare cases where the factory fluid might be better. That is what I would call a bandaid but it seems to help. Personally I would keep the Type F and shift by hand to keep the rest of the trans in good shape.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

I have only used the Honda fluid; currently the DW-1 or whatever it is called.

Scottwax

Towards the end, I had to downshift by hand or it would flare 1000 rpms.