3rd Gear top speed?????
07-01-2012, 06:33 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
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3rd Gear top speed?????
hey guys...Ok, so i have a 04 TL 6 speed. Today i was listening and inspecting my car. So, i was in 3rd gear and decided to step on it. So i reached the max rev in 3rd and noticed i topped out at 90. I could have sworn that i topped out at 100 a while back...So if anyone could put some input in, that would be appreciated. I just wanna make sure my car is working properly...thank you
07-01-2012, 06:43 PM
#2
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iTrader: (7)
are your tires very worn out by any chance? the difference between a 100% tread tire and 0% tread is a couple mph slower because of the smaller overall diameter. however i dont have a 6speed tl so i dont know how high 3rd gear is supposed to reach anyways
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07-01-2012, 11:35 PM
#13
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We don't have roads that go to 100 .... or even 90. 
NC, FTMFL.
NC, FTMFL.
07-02-2012, 12:42 AM
#14
I will look at what mph per 1k rpm 3rd gear is, but I think it's pretty close to 15 mph per 1k and pretty sure the fuel cut off is 7200 atleast for the 06 MT's. I have hit the fuel cut off once or twice back when it was stock, because it was so quiet. It's not a great idea to run the rpm that high very often, so I would never intentionally do it.
07-03-2012, 04:48 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
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I will look at what mph per 1k rpm 3rd gear is, but I think it's pretty close to 15 mph per 1k and pretty sure the fuel cut off is 7200 atleast for the 06 MT's. I have hit the fuel cut off once or twice back when it was stock, because it was so quiet. It's not a great idea to run the rpm that high very often, so I would never intentionally do it.
Allright, sounds good. Let me know what you come up with..I know its not good to always run that high rpm. I was just making sure my car was running ok..
07-03-2012, 05:08 PM
#16
^ Good try, but your speedo can't tell if your tires are worn or not. You could install 6' tall monster truck tires , 10" ATV wheels. The speedo will still say the same speed at any given rpm in a given gear. It's only reading the rotation of the diff assembly.
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bluetl04 (07-03-2012)
07-03-2012, 05:12 PM
#17
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Read your damn owner's manual 
It answers questions like this too
It answers questions like this too
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bluetl04 (07-03-2012)
07-03-2012, 05:21 PM
#18
All you NEED to know are a few bits of information.
- Current individual gear ratios
- Current final drive ratios
- Current tire size or diameter
- Current rpm @ Fuel Cut
These few bits of information are all you need to plot your true gear/speed into a chart that allows you to compare & contrast. Assuming a 7000rpm fuel cut (I believe it's slightly lower than 7k), & 235/45-17 tires, the following information is true:
Here is the 6MT gear/speed chart: http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalc...70&trannytype=
Here is the 5AT gear/speed chart: http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalc...70&trannytype=
here is a direct comparison between the 5AT (red) & 6MT (blue): http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalc...ission+1+%26+2
Last edited by 94eg!; 07-03-2012 at 05:35 PM.
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bluetl04 (07-03-2012)
07-03-2012, 08:47 PM
#20
If we are talking about indicated mph like I would imagine the OP is, my gear explanation could not be any more accurate. Gears don't get larger so 1st gear 1k is always the same indicated speed. Tire size, speedometer variance and other factors effect the actual speed, a factor more difficult to accurately determin. I looked at it today and 3rd gear is about 14 mph per 1k, 98 indicated mph at 7k.
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bluetl04 (07-03-2012)
07-03-2012, 09:50 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
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If we are talking about indicated mph like I would imagine the OP is, my gear explanation could not be any more accurate. Gears don't get larger so 1st gear 1k is always the same indicated speed. Tire size, speedometer variance and other factors effect the actual speed, a factor more difficult to accurately determin. I looked at it today and 3rd gear is about 14 mph per 1k, 98 indicated mph at 7k.
Thanks for taking the time to check it out... So you did 98mph in 3rd, and i only did 90mph in 3rd. Maybe my 19 inch wheels have an effect on the speed
07-03-2012, 11:01 PM
#22
I already explained your wheels & tires size has no effect on your gauge indications. The difference is probably what rpm the fuel cutoff happens. These things tend to change throughout various model years & ECUs etc... It could also be varied tolerances in the speedometers. I think OEM gauge manufactures are allowed up to a 5% variance by law. That's pretty significant.
07-04-2012, 01:24 AM
#23
Team Owner
Gear ratios don't change. Unless the clutch was slipping or the rev limit was lowered, nothing can possibly change how fast the car will go in each gear. Horsepower has absolutely no effect, 100hp or 600hp will have the same top speed in 3rd gear. Tire diameter has no effect on INDICATED speed. Whatever speed it topped out at a year ago it will top out at today assuming the same rev limit and a non slipping clutch.
07-04-2012, 01:27 AM
#24
Team Owner
I already explained your wheels & tires size has no effect on your gauge indications. The difference is probably what rpm the fuel cutoff happens. These things tend to change throughout various model years & ECUs etc... It could also be varied tolerances in the speedometers. I think OEM gauge manufactures are allowed up to a 5% variance by law. That's pretty significant.
The one thing that has made me wonder over the years is the tire diameter correction in the navi diagnostics, the one with the +-%. The correction on mine nearly perfectly matched the change in diameter from stock tires to the aftermarket tires I had at the time. We're talking 1-2% at the most so it doesn't explain the OP but I've never gotten an answer if the speedo or odo uses it to "calibrate". It's definitely possible to use GPS to calibrate for a given diameter but not sure if it's even legal to do so.
07-04-2012, 08:57 AM
#25
Agreed.
The one thing that has made me wonder over the years is the tire diameter correction in the navi diagnostics, the one with the +-%. The correction on mine nearly perfectly matched the change in diameter from stock tires to the aftermarket tires I had at the time. We're talking 1-2% at the most so it doesn't explain the OP but I've never gotten an answer if the speedo or odo uses it to "calibrate". It's definitely possible to use GPS to calibrate for a given diameter but not sure if it's even legal to do so.
The one thing that has made me wonder over the years is the tire diameter correction in the navi diagnostics, the one with the +-%. The correction on mine nearly perfectly matched the change in diameter from stock tires to the aftermarket tires I had at the time. We're talking 1-2% at the most so it doesn't explain the OP but I've never gotten an answer if the speedo or odo uses it to "calibrate". It's definitely possible to use GPS to calibrate for a given diameter but not sure if it's even legal to do so.
j/k. That would be pretty cool. And if they don't do it on the 3G, I'm sure it's only a matter of time.
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justnspace (07-06-2012)
07-06-2012, 09:36 AM
#28
Burning Brakes
07-06-2012, 10:01 AM
#29
Typically Hondas are set up with the limiters much lower than what the engine can actually handle and is totally safe and shouldn't cause any problems. The only fear of bent valves is that there is no limiter when you down shift. Honda's have high compression motors, they are meant to be abused high up.
07-06-2012, 10:28 AM
#30
Typically Hondas are set up with the limiters much lower than what the engine can actually handle and is totally safe and shouldn't cause any problems. The only fear of bent valves is that there is no limiter when you down shift. Honda's have high compression motors, they are meant to be abused high up.
Last edited by YeuEmMaiMai; 07-06-2012 at 10:33 AM.
07-06-2012, 10:33 AM
#31
Burning Brakes
I was talking about the reliability/safety of rev limiter, not about powershifting or racing here loosing
07-06-2012, 10:46 AM
#32
Burning Brakes
Tell me how that can be done? Answer: over-rev. How? Timing chain jumped which results in bent valves. Many K20's and J32's I've pushed at the dyno and road racing, never once I floated the valves. So how can you go 7400 rpm when rev limiter stopped before that? Only cause is driver's error.
I've dyno'd many cars hitting rev limiters. Is your car auto or manual?
I've dyno'd many cars hitting rev limiters. Is your car auto or manual?
Last edited by bouncer07; 07-06-2012 at 10:56 AM.
07-06-2012, 02:26 PM
#33
Team Owner
Bent valves from over revving are not due to the timing belt jumping teeth, they're caused from valve float. The spring loses control of the valve and it no longer follows the cam profile. The cure is less rpm or stiffer valve springs.
07-06-2012, 03:11 PM
#35
Here is a neat illustration of high rpm valvetrain. Even though it's labeled as 14000rpm, valvetrain only rotate at half that speed (so 7000rpm). Very interesting how the retainers & springs twirl around independently of one another.
Here is another video that illustrates slow motion pushrod V8 valvetrain at 10000rpm. Interesting how the individual coils bounce off each other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=i_NpzU4pGjc
Here is another video that illustrates slow motion pushrod V8 valvetrain at 10000rpm. Interesting how the individual coils bounce off each other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=i_NpzU4pGjc
07-06-2012, 04:00 PM
#36
Team Owner
Very cool videos. The pushrod engine uses dual valve springs, the center springs are used to reduce harmonics as well. Pushrod engines typically use much stiffer springs as well due to the additional weight of the pushrods and even lifters.
The quicker of the 3 GNs we have has a 9,000rpm redline and makes power to just above 8k. It has helper springs on the pushrods themselves, small springs that go around the pushrods and are secured into the block. They make it possible to reduce the main valve spring pressure by controlling the pushrods before they hit the 1.6-1.8:1 leverage disadvantage after the rocker arm. It helps with valvetrain reliability from the insane spring pressures we have to run even on moderate rpm engines. Just thought I would throw it out there, you don't see mention of the helper springs much anymore since pushrods are going away.
Obviously high rpm reliability goes to overhead cam engines.
You can see why additives such as ZDDP go a long way in a high performance valvetrain, it can be hard to get good lube at those kinds of rpm and it looked like it was nearly vaporizing the oil at full rpm. It still amazes me that the lifter actually follows the cam accurately at those kinds of rpms. You would probably still see the same kind of spring shake on the OHC engine as well if it were slowed down.
This also shows how harmonics can effect things. We've had pushrod engines that were destroying the valvetrain at say 7,500rpm and by taking them HIGHER we got out of the harmonic range and they became more reliable. This technology is really neat. In the old days you knew you were probably running into a harmonic issue but now you can actually see what it looks like.
Got any videos of valve float?
The quicker of the 3 GNs we have has a 9,000rpm redline and makes power to just above 8k. It has helper springs on the pushrods themselves, small springs that go around the pushrods and are secured into the block. They make it possible to reduce the main valve spring pressure by controlling the pushrods before they hit the 1.6-1.8:1 leverage disadvantage after the rocker arm. It helps with valvetrain reliability from the insane spring pressures we have to run even on moderate rpm engines. Just thought I would throw it out there, you don't see mention of the helper springs much anymore since pushrods are going away.
Obviously high rpm reliability goes to overhead cam engines.
You can see why additives such as ZDDP go a long way in a high performance valvetrain, it can be hard to get good lube at those kinds of rpm and it looked like it was nearly vaporizing the oil at full rpm. It still amazes me that the lifter actually follows the cam accurately at those kinds of rpms. You would probably still see the same kind of spring shake on the OHC engine as well if it were slowed down.
This also shows how harmonics can effect things. We've had pushrod engines that were destroying the valvetrain at say 7,500rpm and by taking them HIGHER we got out of the harmonic range and they became more reliable. This technology is really neat. In the old days you knew you were probably running into a harmonic issue but now you can actually see what it looks like.
Got any videos of valve float?
07-06-2012, 05:41 PM
#38
Tell me how that can be done? Answer: over-rev. How? Timing chain jumped which results in bent valves. Many K20's and J32's I've pushed at the dyno and road racing, never once I floated the valves. So how can you go 7400 rpm when rev limiter stopped before that? Only cause is driver's error.
I've dyno'd many cars hitting rev limiters. Is your car auto or manual?
I've dyno'd many cars hitting rev limiters. Is your car auto or manual?
07-07-2012, 03:02 AM
#40
Team Owner
Maybe the valves are super light??? In comparison I have to run 110lb springs in order to spin 6000 rpm with my heavy valve train. Just pointing out that valve weight has something to do with it.