2G type S vs 3G type S??
#1
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2G type S vs 3G type S??
before my 08 3g TL-S, i had a 02 2G TL-S. according to reviews from various sources, it was stated that 2G type s would go 0-60 in 6.2 sec. I've heard from many Azine Members that 3G type s goes 0-60 in high 5s or low 6s (automatic). however when i compare the 2G type s and the 3 G type s, the 3G type s feels alot quicker than than the 2G type s like night and day. Perhaps the 2G type s is alot slower than as it was stated on the reviews. I'm guessing it runs from 0-60 in high 6 or low 7?
#2
265hp vs 286hp
#4
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I've got both.
No doubt in my mind that the 3G is quicker and faster (Stock vs Stock). I can't prove it with slips or dyno sheets, but I'd bet a paycheck on it.
My recollection when researching the 2G (about 7 years ago) was a 0 - 60 typically in the 6.5 or 6.7 range. 3G typically in the low 6's, say, 6.1 - 6.3.
No doubt in my mind that the 3G is quicker and faster (Stock vs Stock). I can't prove it with slips or dyno sheets, but I'd bet a paycheck on it.
My recollection when researching the 2G (about 7 years ago) was a 0 - 60 typically in the 6.5 or 6.7 range. 3G typically in the low 6's, say, 6.1 - 6.3.
#5
Suzuka Master
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The 2G is 260HP, but is that over rated as similar to what happened with the 3G when it first came out with the 270HP rating. The 2G has only 10.5 CR which leads me to believe that the HP is definitely overrated.
With the 5 A/T, the 2G has basically the same gear ratios and weight as the 3G TL through '06. In '07 the TL and TL's gear ratios where lowered and the final drive was raised, but the final result was a slightly lower overall ratio in each gear.
After all this gibberish, I'd agree that the 2G TL-s would be competitive with the TL as the 3G TL-s is in a class of its own.
With the 5 A/T, the 2G has basically the same gear ratios and weight as the 3G TL through '06. In '07 the TL and TL's gear ratios where lowered and the final drive was raised, but the final result was a slightly lower overall ratio in each gear.
After all this gibberish, I'd agree that the 2G TL-s would be competitive with the TL as the 3G TL-s is in a class of its own.
#6
The 2G is 260HP, but is that over rated as similar to what happened with the 3G when it first came out with the 270HP rating. The 2G has only 10.5 CR which leads me to believe that the HP is definitely overrated.
With the 5 A/T, the 2G has basically the same gear ratios and weight as the 3G TL through '06. In '07 the TL and TL's gear ratios where lowered and the final drive was raised, but the final result was a slightly lower overall ratio in each gear.
After all this gibberish, I'd agree that the 2G TL-s would be competitive with the TL as the 3G TL-s is in a class of its own.
With the 5 A/T, the 2G has basically the same gear ratios and weight as the 3G TL through '06. In '07 the TL and TL's gear ratios where lowered and the final drive was raised, but the final result was a slightly lower overall ratio in each gear.
After all this gibberish, I'd agree that the 2G TL-s would be competitive with the TL as the 3G TL-s is in a class of its own.
dispite what people will claimed, it is what it is. period.
#7
Safety Car
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So just out of curiousity what would the 07/08 TL-S be rated at HP wise under the old SAE rating?
Since the 04/06 TL was 270 and the Type S is about 30hp more than the base so im guessing under the old SAE the 07/08 TL-S would have been right around 300hp?
Not that it matters or anything :-)
Since the 04/06 TL was 270 and the Type S is about 30hp more than the base so im guessing under the old SAE the 07/08 TL-S would have been right around 300hp?
Not that it matters or anything :-)
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#8
Race Director
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I thought the 2nd gen type-s was the same motor as the 3rd gen base? Both j32s? So it comes down to suspension, and weight?
#10
-Arsenic-
#11
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I loved the 2G till the 3G came out...
I think it's faster just based on will power.
Plus I have a 6MT and I'm a pretty good driver. I walk my friends type S every time.
A lot of factors to take into account other than just hp listings.
I think it's faster just based on will power.
Plus I have a 6MT and I'm a pretty good driver. I walk my friends type S every time.
A lot of factors to take into account other than just hp listings.
#13
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LOL ... can't we all just get along in the same family ? IMO this kind of 2G vs 3G type-s needs dyno sheet to back up any claims .. or else it's a mute point as the race depends on lots of human factors ...
#14
Three Wheelin'
the 3G typeS has more typeS badges (steering wheel, both headrests, and trunk), vs just trunk and shifter. So with this imperical test we can conclude the 3G is faster.
I have to admit my 2001 CL typeS had a bit more engine tone, and i find the 3G muffles the engine too much.
my 2008 typeS does feel faster, but last I drove my 2001 typeS it had 116k miles
I have to admit my 2001 CL typeS had a bit more engine tone, and i find the 3G muffles the engine too much.
my 2008 typeS does feel faster, but last I drove my 2001 typeS it had 116k miles
#15
I had a 2002 type s for several years before trading it in for my 2005 base auto. Performance wise, they are almost the same. I think the type s pulled harder at the top end, but the '05 had better mid range.
With mod's the type s probably wins because of headers. I'll be adding rich's v2 jpipe, but headers>jpipe, I think.
With mod's the type s probably wins because of headers. I'll be adding rich's v2 jpipe, but headers>jpipe, I think.
#17
So just out of curiousity what would the 07/08 TL-S be rated at HP wise under the old SAE rating?
Since the 04/06 TL was 270 and the Type S is about 30hp more than the base so im guessing under the old SAE the 07/08 TL-S would have been right around 300hp?
Not that it matters or anything :-)
Since the 04/06 TL was 270 and the Type S is about 30hp more than the base so im guessing under the old SAE the 07/08 TL-S would have been right around 300hp?
Not that it matters or anything :-)
#18
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James
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6spd base vs type s auto? hm... tough call. depending on the driver, 6spd base can take auto type s but not by much. Either dead even or a bit slower than type s auto.
#20
Being an Acha Bacha in
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Try to get a video so I can see that. I still have a hard time believing all these people on the boards that claim their base TL with 250hp can beat a Type S just because its 6spd. Even being an amazing driver more likely than not the automatic is going to shift quicker. Again, im not bashing anyone here I just wish there was some videos online to prove it.
James
James
With that said I use to own a 2nd Gen TL-S WDP and I sure do miss it. I think the 2nd Gens just look more Elegant than our 3rd Gens.
#21
Safety Car
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Woops I feel like an idiot I forgot this thread was about the 2G TL-S. I was referring to the 3G Type S when I was talking about that race. I can see a 3G TL base beating a 2G Type S without to much trouble.
I do remember however seeing that some 3G TL base guys with the 6spd claim to be faster than 07/08 Type S cars which is what I was originally saying I have a hard time believing 6spd or not.
I do remember however seeing that some 3G TL base guys with the 6spd claim to be faster than 07/08 Type S cars which is what I was originally saying I have a hard time believing 6spd or not.
#23
Three Wheelin'
well to be honest I'm not sure how the outcome of a base 6spd vs a typeS 6spd can be a surprise. They weigh almost the same both are geared fairly short in my opinion but one has more power and torque. So unless one driver rides the rev limitter or shifts like crap the outcome is fairly obvious to me. Now obviously the base has an option the typeS doesn't and that's a supercharger... But bone stock it's a no contest to me
Last edited by PhilB81; 06-21-2009 at 04:59 PM.
#24
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Someone out there has to be able to get us a video!!! :-)
#25
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yeah its kind of hard to believe that a base 6spd Tl can take a type S auto. bigger engine and more horsepower is less than or equal to smaller engine and less hp just because its a 6 spd manual? hm.. maybe. Sticks are always quicker than auto so..
#27
I have a stock 3G base TL 6spd with 50k and it easily beat my buddies healthy stock 2G type s. no contest what so ever. pulling on him every gear until 5th where i let off. Off the line was a joke where obviously the biggest separation was created but the gap only widened. I went up against my bosses 3G automatic where nearly the same result happened... perhaps even with a larger gap. 6 spd makes a huge difference with this car...
In the end i didnt get this car for the speed as there are many other options i would have chosen. It still puts a smaile on my face tho and has no issues passing on the highway
In the end i didnt get this car for the speed as there are many other options i would have chosen. It still puts a smaile on my face tho and has no issues passing on the highway
#28
It's simple, there are only so many variables that come into play in a race. Weight, power/tq, gearing, drag coefficient etc. and when many of these are close as in the 2g type s vs 3g base the 3g should slightly pull with more low end tq, slightly higher hp and comparable gearing. It's not gonna be a devastating win but it should win by a small amount(driver factor withheld of course).
I personally didn't buy this car for a fast car though, there were plenty of better options in the price range for that, my 04 turbo miata would shit all over any TL i've ever seen as it was a low 13 second car. If I wanted something quicker I would have kept that, I got the TL for the luxury/professionalism of it and it can still put a smirk on my face if I punch it. If you want a race car then i'd suggest selling your TL and get something better equipped for the task.
I personally didn't buy this car for a fast car though, there were plenty of better options in the price range for that, my 04 turbo miata would shit all over any TL i've ever seen as it was a low 13 second car. If I wanted something quicker I would have kept that, I got the TL for the luxury/professionalism of it and it can still put a smirk on my face if I punch it. If you want a race car then i'd suggest selling your TL and get something better equipped for the task.
#31
thats because its already been said that a base 3g 6mt is faster than a 2g 6mt type-s
Heres how I see the 3g base 6mt vs type-s comparison
someone correct me with these numbers if I'm wrong, I havent looked at many dynos.
6mt's = ~15% drivetrain loss
5at's = ~25% drivetrain loss
base = 258 hp
type-s = 286 hp
weights: Im guessing the base weights a bit less than the types, but I wont even consider this right now. Its probably not much anyway.
base 6mt whp = 258*.85 = 219.3
type-s 5at whp = 286*.75 = 214.5
not sure about the loss coefficients but I think they are pretty close.
Regardless, you can see how 6mt vs 5at completely negates any engine advantage the type-s may have.
6mt will also get quicker shifts (theoretically) provided the driver is someone competant and has some experience. 6mt will also get better launches when done right.
So, IMO, this race comes down to the driver. A well-driven base 3g 6mt will hang with a 3g 5at type-s if not SLIGHTLY pull on him given these circumstances.
However, we all know there are so many variables that go into a race so the outcome may not always be like what you think. All other variables aside though, I think what I said holds true.
Heres how I see the 3g base 6mt vs type-s comparison
someone correct me with these numbers if I'm wrong, I havent looked at many dynos.
6mt's = ~15% drivetrain loss
5at's = ~25% drivetrain loss
base = 258 hp
type-s = 286 hp
weights: Im guessing the base weights a bit less than the types, but I wont even consider this right now. Its probably not much anyway.
base 6mt whp = 258*.85 = 219.3
type-s 5at whp = 286*.75 = 214.5
not sure about the loss coefficients but I think they are pretty close.
Regardless, you can see how 6mt vs 5at completely negates any engine advantage the type-s may have.
6mt will also get quicker shifts (theoretically) provided the driver is someone competant and has some experience. 6mt will also get better launches when done right.
So, IMO, this race comes down to the driver. A well-driven base 3g 6mt will hang with a 3g 5at type-s if not SLIGHTLY pull on him given these circumstances.
However, we all know there are so many variables that go into a race so the outcome may not always be like what you think. All other variables aside though, I think what I said holds true.
#32
Race Director
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#33
Being an Acha Bacha in
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thats because its already been said that a base 3g 6mt is faster than a 2g 6mt type-s
Heres how I see the 3g base 6mt vs type-s comparison
someone correct me with these numbers if I'm wrong, I havent looked at many dynos.
6mt's = ~15% drivetrain loss
5at's = ~25% drivetrain loss
base = 258 hp
type-s = 286 hp
weights: Im guessing the base weights a bit less than the types, but I wont even consider this right now. Its probably not much anyway.
base 6mt whp = 258*.85 = 219.3
type-s 5at whp = 286*.75 = 214.5
not sure about the loss coefficients but I think they are pretty close.
Regardless, you can see how 6mt vs 5at completely negates any engine advantage the type-s may have.
6mt will also get quicker shifts (theoretically) provided the driver is someone competant and has some experience. 6mt will also get better launches when done right.
So, IMO, this race comes down to the driver. A well-driven base 3g 6mt will hang with a 3g 5at type-s if not SLIGHTLY pull on him given these circumstances.
However, we all know there are so many variables that go into a race so the outcome may not always be like what you think. All other variables aside though, I think what I said holds true.
Heres how I see the 3g base 6mt vs type-s comparison
someone correct me with these numbers if I'm wrong, I havent looked at many dynos.
6mt's = ~15% drivetrain loss
5at's = ~25% drivetrain loss
base = 258 hp
type-s = 286 hp
weights: Im guessing the base weights a bit less than the types, but I wont even consider this right now. Its probably not much anyway.
base 6mt whp = 258*.85 = 219.3
type-s 5at whp = 286*.75 = 214.5
not sure about the loss coefficients but I think they are pretty close.
Regardless, you can see how 6mt vs 5at completely negates any engine advantage the type-s may have.
6mt will also get quicker shifts (theoretically) provided the driver is someone competant and has some experience. 6mt will also get better launches when done right.
So, IMO, this race comes down to the driver. A well-driven base 3g 6mt will hang with a 3g 5at type-s if not SLIGHTLY pull on him given these circumstances.
However, we all know there are so many variables that go into a race so the outcome may not always be like what you think. All other variables aside though, I think what I said holds true.
I raced in Base Auto.. fully stock against 3G Type S Auto that was fully modded with everything except SC and he won by just 1 car legnth. I knew I was going to lose, but I wanted to see how I fared in stock form before I start modding and I was quiet happy, if that was my result against a fully modded TYPE S.
#34
Being an Acha Bacha in
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well to be honest I'm not sure how the outcome of a base 6spd vs a typeS 6spd can be a surprise. They weigh almost the same both are geared fairly short in my opinion but one has more power and torque. So unless one driver rides the rev limitter or shifts like crap the outcome is fairly obvious to me. Now obviously the base has an option the typeS doesn't and that's a supercharger... But bone stock it's a no contest to me
The difference between a 2G base and 2G TYPE S.. there was more difference if you ask me in outcome of races. Again this I speak from experience not just paper facts.
#35
Drifting
Honda makes a sh!tty transmission if the 5AT has 25% loss... When I dynoed my 4AT Pontiac Grand Prix, it only saw 18% loss to the wheels.
#36
Three Wheelin'
Oh I didnt say it was going to be a surprise, its obvious the TYPE S will win, but by how much is the question? Type S has more HP and more displacement but its not such a night and day difference on the street as it's made to be on the forums. This is according to my FIRST HAND experiences and observations.
The difference between a 2G base and 2G TYPE S.. there was more difference if you ask me in outcome of races. Again this I speak from experience not just paper facts.
The difference between a 2G base and 2G TYPE S.. there was more difference if you ask me in outcome of races. Again this I speak from experience not just paper facts.
As far as difference, well with a street race, 30hp on a car that's 3600lbs won't look like that big of a missmatch, you need a 1mile run or something to really see the difference.
As far as the 2G base vs TypeS and 3G base vs TypeS, I would have thought the gap in the 3G would be bigger, simply because of the displacement which if I remember right keeps the hp and torque curve higher throughout the rev range. But the 2G the difference was mostly when ur in Vtec. But then again, I suppose when you race, you are in Vtec
I don't have 1st hand experience with this, so I'll go with your exprience
#40
Senior Moderator
The 2nd Gen TL is a bit lighter than the 3rd Gen TL, weight is a pretty big factor in racing!
Also the AT transmissions have about an 18% loss, while the 6MT has about a 10% loss. The 6MT is also 200-300 pounds lighter and has gears much closer to each other.
Also the AT transmissions have about an 18% loss, while the 6MT has about a 10% loss. The 6MT is also 200-300 pounds lighter and has gears much closer to each other.