08 MT Type S vs 11 Audi S4
10-29-2011, 02:11 PM
#41
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^^Yeah, but you have to remember those are base TL 6MT's that are supercharged with bolt ons and making ~325 whp at the wheels. I mean that's over 100 over stock. It's not a huge stretch to believe that a fully bolted Type-S 6MT with induction porting can break 290 whp when they're ~250 bone stock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H8-3IC4rxc
10-29-2011, 05:25 PM
#42
As usual with dyno figures, if they are not side by side or one after the other, it's not a very effective comparison. Again, there are so many variables and factors that go into number racing.
FWIW, 6MT TLS' have done 250+ on a consistent enough basis to say that they are good for that number. We can argue the low numbers against the high numbers and AT vs 6MT all day. No use in hand picking a supportive argument for or against, when it comes to it's better dyno numbers, it really is what it is.
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=686783 - Base 6MT TL comparison numbers here as well.
FWIW, 6MT TLS' have done 250+ on a consistent enough basis to say that they are good for that number. We can argue the low numbers against the high numbers and AT vs 6MT all day. No use in hand picking a supportive argument for or against, when it comes to it's better dyno numbers, it really is what it is.
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=686783 - Base 6MT TL comparison numbers here as well.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 10-29-2011 at 05:30 PM.
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10-29-2011, 05:29 PM
#43
Suzuka Master
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Yeah, 5AT's Type S's make 230-235, not 6MT's. I'm seeing 253 whp from TOV, and yes, that's SAE.
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=686783
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=686783
10-29-2011, 07:37 PM
#44
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Try finding a few more pure stock TL or TLS showing those numbers at the wheels on a non closely associated Honda site.
If these numbers are good TL’s should be knocking down very high 13 low 14ET’s all day long in pure stock form. So why are 13.9 second or better pure stock TL type S pretty much nonexistent in real life? There are not many if any low pure stock 14’s posted here. Those that are 13/14 have been modified including all those who are posting here.
99% of the real life times, with time slips actually posted, are typically bolted & suggest WHP of well less then 250 in pure stock form. By way of comparison pure stock 335i’s dyno in around 266whp. 266whp with a 15% friction loss comes out to 305chp against the advertised power of 300chp.
If you go to drag times the slowest 335I posted is a 13.89 & it’s the 221st entry 11 pages into the list. There are no 14 second runs on the BMW list. On the TL list the slowest entry is number 20 @ 14.8.
You have to go up to the 4th fastest TL entry to get into the 13’s. The TL should only take about 245whp to make a 13.7. Take 245whp add back 15% for friction loss to 289chp which is pretty close to the factory 286chp.
ANX1300c For all you modifications your best time is?
If these numbers are good TL’s should be knocking down very high 13 low 14ET’s all day long in pure stock form. So why are 13.9 second or better pure stock TL type S pretty much nonexistent in real life? There are not many if any low pure stock 14’s posted here. Those that are 13/14 have been modified including all those who are posting here.
99% of the real life times, with time slips actually posted, are typically bolted & suggest WHP of well less then 250 in pure stock form. By way of comparison pure stock 335i’s dyno in around 266whp. 266whp with a 15% friction loss comes out to 305chp against the advertised power of 300chp.
If you go to drag times the slowest 335I posted is a 13.89 & it’s the 221st entry 11 pages into the list. There are no 14 second runs on the BMW list. On the TL list the slowest entry is number 20 @ 14.8.
You have to go up to the 4th fastest TL entry to get into the 13’s. The TL should only take about 245whp to make a 13.7. Take 245whp add back 15% for friction loss to 289chp which is pretty close to the factory 286chp.
ANX1300c For all you modifications your best time is?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-29-2011 at 07:40 PM.
10-29-2011, 10:43 PM
#45
Suzuka Master
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See, now you're comparing ET's of an underrated (power wise) RWD car that puts down 290 wtq right off idle, and you're also posting one of the lowest whp ratings for it, at 266. The early production '07 335i's (an extra pound of boost?) were putting down a solid 275-280 whp. Here's a test of one running 13.4 @ 104 mph, on 280 whp.
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/3-seri...initi-g37.html
Now take a TL Type-S 6MT at ~250 whp, trapping at 100-101 mph, as they have in various mag tests, and it seems pretty legit to me. The two cars both weigh in the mid 3500's, and considering the TL can't even hold a candle to the 335's torque curve, I think those traps align pretty well. Take the ET's right out of the equation, since you should know the difference between FWD and RWD. If every spec of the TL remained exactly the same, except it was RWD, it would likely be 2-3/10 quicker from 0-60 and in the quarter on street tires.
And as far as getting real world stats on the Type-S, to my knowledge there just isn't much real data. Check the qm thread. There's a guy who ran 14.0-14.1 @ 100 in a stock TL-S 6MT.
And I'm not sure where you're going with my car, being that it's a base model, and only makes ~220 whp stock, and maybe 245 as it sits currently, but I ran a 14.4 @ 98.30 on a not-so-great track, 80 degree day on a 2.24 sixty, which corrected to 14.1 @ 100 on Drag Time's DA calculator, which seems right in line with a stock TL-S 6MT The previous time I was there (before I added the HFC's), I did 99.30 on a 60 degree day.
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/3-seri...initi-g37.html
Now take a TL Type-S 6MT at ~250 whp, trapping at 100-101 mph, as they have in various mag tests, and it seems pretty legit to me. The two cars both weigh in the mid 3500's, and considering the TL can't even hold a candle to the 335's torque curve, I think those traps align pretty well. Take the ET's right out of the equation, since you should know the difference between FWD and RWD. If every spec of the TL remained exactly the same, except it was RWD, it would likely be 2-3/10 quicker from 0-60 and in the quarter on street tires.
And as far as getting real world stats on the Type-S, to my knowledge there just isn't much real data. Check the qm thread. There's a guy who ran 14.0-14.1 @ 100 in a stock TL-S 6MT.
And I'm not sure where you're going with my car, being that it's a base model, and only makes ~220 whp stock, and maybe 245 as it sits currently, but I ran a 14.4 @ 98.30 on a not-so-great track, 80 degree day on a 2.24 sixty, which corrected to 14.1 @ 100 on Drag Time's DA calculator, which seems right in line with a stock TL-S 6MT The previous time I was there (before I added the HFC's), I did 99.30 on a 60 degree day.
10-29-2011, 11:58 PM
#46
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Sorry thought you has an S
Here is the "real" TL/TLS data.
1) 13.125* 107.100 SC
2) 13.320* 107.000 SC
3) 13.700*+ 101.630 SC
4) 13.751*^ 102.830 SC
5) 14.088* 100.650
6) 14.110* 99.010
7) 14.270 99.430 Acura TL Type S 5at 2007 Ricardo Villa
8) 14.290 98.870
9) 14.300*# 99.000
10) 14.374* 97.630 Acura TL type s 2007 David Arias
11) 14.374* 97.120 Acura TL Type S 5AT 2007 JP Bearcat
12) 14.410*# 99.100 Acura TL SH-AWD 2009 NA
13) 14.500# 99.000
14) 14.516# 98.720
15) 14.590 96.800
16) 14.620# 96.000 Acura TL sh-awd 2009 na
17) 14.780*# 94.400
18) 14.790 93.390
19) 14.810*# 96.710 Acura TL SH-AWD 2009 NA
20) 14.812 97.280
I left in the ones that specifically said Type S in the listing or the 305hp 4G’s. 99/97 mph seems to be the big number. The cars in the 100/103mph range are all listing power mods & or drag tires.
If a car is starting off with a base of 250whp has X$ worth of aftermarket performance options don’t you think it could pick up in one case 16whp or in your example 30wph to equal the trap speeds of the 280whp cars?
As for the 280whp this dyno is from Burger Motorsports in CA. who I get my stuff from. The “stock" 335i in the test has both Intake, Down Pipes installed & is running on 93 octane fuel. As you may know down pipes on a turbo car are a big deal, worth on average 20+ hp, as is the fuels octane rating. Intakes generally just make noise
Reason I have confidence in his numbers is he stated on a dyno run to their specs my pure stock 335is would generate a bit over 300whp. It came in at 312whp on a dyno run by a local Raleigh NC Corvette race prep shop. It looks like my east coast dyno & Terry’s west coast dyno are very close in output when the test is properly setup.
Here is the "real" TL/TLS data.
1) 13.125* 107.100 SC
2) 13.320* 107.000 SC
3) 13.700*+ 101.630 SC
4) 13.751*^ 102.830 SC
5) 14.088* 100.650
6) 14.110* 99.010
7) 14.270 99.430 Acura TL Type S 5at 2007 Ricardo Villa
8) 14.290 98.870
9) 14.300*# 99.000
10) 14.374* 97.630 Acura TL type s 2007 David Arias
11) 14.374* 97.120 Acura TL Type S 5AT 2007 JP Bearcat
12) 14.410*# 99.100 Acura TL SH-AWD 2009 NA
13) 14.500# 99.000
14) 14.516# 98.720
15) 14.590 96.800
16) 14.620# 96.000 Acura TL sh-awd 2009 na
17) 14.780*# 94.400
18) 14.790 93.390
19) 14.810*# 96.710 Acura TL SH-AWD 2009 NA
20) 14.812 97.280
I left in the ones that specifically said Type S in the listing or the 305hp 4G’s. 99/97 mph seems to be the big number. The cars in the 100/103mph range are all listing power mods & or drag tires.
If a car is starting off with a base of 250whp has X$ worth of aftermarket performance options don’t you think it could pick up in one case 16whp or in your example 30wph to equal the trap speeds of the 280whp cars?
As for the 280whp this dyno is from Burger Motorsports in CA. who I get my stuff from. The “stock" 335i in the test has both Intake, Down Pipes installed & is running on 93 octane fuel. As you may know down pipes on a turbo car are a big deal, worth on average 20+ hp, as is the fuels octane rating. Intakes generally just make noise
Reason I have confidence in his numbers is he stated on a dyno run to their specs my pure stock 335is would generate a bit over 300whp. It came in at 312whp on a dyno run by a local Raleigh NC Corvette race prep shop. It looks like my east coast dyno & Terry’s west coast dyno are very close in output when the test is properly setup.
10-30-2011, 03:10 AM
#47
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It has been a while since my last post here folks.
Upgrades to my 08 Type S are made. The latest so far, Clutch Masters FX400 6 puck set up (Finally It works), Mugen, 2 stage TB bored with Intake manifold and heatshield gaskets matching. Unfortunately I have not being able to dyno my car.
Last numbers where at 294whp 262tq. But today I had the privilege of racing on a high speed roll on a MT 2011 Audi S4... 3 runs on a 3rd gear roll on...I wish it was done at 1st gear....
The s4 had from a view an aftermarket catback exhaust. This car is 333hp and 325tq stock...It knew it was gonna be a good race. Nothing to loose here.
To my surprise starting on a roll at 4000rpms 3rd...My car kept a half a vehicle in front, shifting to 4th gear 2 cars ahead. I was really impressed to see for 3 times the results confirmed over and over again.
Many things to compare from a full bolt on, no tune Acura Type S vs a 3.0 Supercharger 11 Audi S4 with exhaust. Edmund claims the Audi runs a 13.2@106mph the 1/4 mile...I believe its time for me to head out to the track and test after having my dyno result...
I was always on the battle to finnaly achieve the 300whp without tune or forced induction to my car. I am guessing that the TL is puuting down a good 303 whp...
To all of those Acura enthusiasts...The competition is becoming more real. It is a honor to have a 4 door sedan naturally aspirated kicking ass, out there to 60k vehicles....
Upgrades to my 08 Type S are made. The latest so far, Clutch Masters FX400 6 puck set up (Finally It works), Mugen, 2 stage TB bored with Intake manifold and heatshield gaskets matching. Unfortunately I have not being able to dyno my car.
Last numbers where at 294whp 262tq. But today I had the privilege of racing on a high speed roll on a MT 2011 Audi S4... 3 runs on a 3rd gear roll on...I wish it was done at 1st gear....
The s4 had from a view an aftermarket catback exhaust. This car is 333hp and 325tq stock...It knew it was gonna be a good race. Nothing to loose here.
To my surprise starting on a roll at 4000rpms 3rd...My car kept a half a vehicle in front, shifting to 4th gear 2 cars ahead. I was really impressed to see for 3 times the results confirmed over and over again.
Many things to compare from a full bolt on, no tune Acura Type S vs a 3.0 Supercharger 11 Audi S4 with exhaust. Edmund claims the Audi runs a 13.2@106mph the 1/4 mile...I believe its time for me to head out to the track and test after having my dyno result...
I was always on the battle to finnaly achieve the 300whp without tune or forced induction to my car. I am guessing that the TL is puuting down a good 303 whp...
To all of those Acura enthusiasts...The competition is becoming more real. It is a honor to have a 4 door sedan naturally aspirated kicking ass, out there to 60k vehicles....
we got the exact same setup expect of type S and MT and exhaust LOL....Am fully bolted on...on an 05 5AT with a true dual exhaust
....pnp manifold, MDX spacer, P2R intake thermal gaskets and runners bored thro....Innovative mounts/OR pulley/Coolant Bypass/UCM....PCD's and True dual exhaust....how much did Mugen bore your TB and how much did you pay for it? am sitting at a little more than 71mm...which is bored thro the Moores TB spacer (wider than P2R) and 2 P2R thermal gaskets....
also any different with the ingalls engine damper ?
10-30-2011, 03:12 AM
#48
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WTF people....can we not turn this into another HP thread......
10-30-2011, 10:59 AM
#49
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10-30-2011, 09:38 PM
#50
Burning Brakes
A lot of us gearheads are just left scratching their heads when we see kill stories like this posted and then we look at the ET/MPHs posted for NA 3rd gen TL/TLS. Either the 3rd gen TLS weighs 300lbs more than advertized or the dynos some people are testing on are a bit optimistic.
10-30-2011, 09:51 PM
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^^^ i still feel only dyno or only 1/4 mile is not the accurate way of measuring "how quick the car is"....
dyno + 1/4 mile should be the right way....since it eliminates optimistic dyno reading plus driver error on the 1/4 mile track....
i wanna see the difference between a fully bolted on 6MT Type S (fastest stock TL) and a fully botled on 5AT Base (slowest stock TL)....
OP when you get a chance can you please list all of your mods and can do get a dyno done + weigh your TL-S....so that we know your numbers you currently are at...i will do the same and will post it up so that we can see where we both are
dyno + 1/4 mile should be the right way....since it eliminates optimistic dyno reading plus driver error on the 1/4 mile track....
i wanna see the difference between a fully bolted on 6MT Type S (fastest stock TL) and a fully botled on 5AT Base (slowest stock TL)....
OP when you get a chance can you please list all of your mods and can do get a dyno done + weigh your TL-S....so that we know your numbers you currently are at...i will do the same and will post it up so that we can see where we both are
10-30-2011, 11:32 PM
#52
Suzuka Master
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[quote=BEAR-AvHistory;13330639]Sorry thought you has an S
Here is the "real" TL/TLS data.
1) 13.125* 107.100 SC
2) 13.320* 107.000 SC
3) 13.700*+ 101.630 SC
4) 13.751*^ 102.830 SC
5) 14.088* 100.650
6) 14.110* 99.010
7) 14.270 99.430 Acura TL Type S 5at 2007 Ricardo Villa
8) 14.290 98.870
9) 14.300*# 99.000
10) 14.374* 97.630 Acura TL type s 2007 David Arias
11) 14.374* 97.120 Acura TL Type S 5AT 2007 JP Bearcat
12) 14.410*# 99.100 Acura TL SH-AWD 2009 NA
13) 14.500# 99.000
14) 14.516# 98.720
15) 14.590 96.800
16) 14.620# 96.000 Acura TL sh-awd 2009 na
17) 14.780*# 94.400
18) 14.790 93.390
19) 14.810*# 96.710 Acura TL SH-AWD 2009 NA
20) 14.812 97.280
The one glaring omission here is that there's not a single fully bolted Type-S 6MT or even a stock one for that matter. The entire list is comprised of base models of both transmissions, N/A and supercharged, and then 5AT Type-S's. If a stock S 6MT can trap 100mph corrected, I would think that one modded like OP's could hit 103-104 mph, corrected. I hope he hits up the track and posts a slip.
I'm still scratching my head when I read that a 4000 lb, power sapping AWD Audi can trap 107-108 mph on only 333 bhp! Maybe it's way underrated?
Here is the "real" TL/TLS data.
1) 13.125* 107.100 SC
2) 13.320* 107.000 SC
3) 13.700*+ 101.630 SC
4) 13.751*^ 102.830 SC
5) 14.088* 100.650
6) 14.110* 99.010
7) 14.270 99.430 Acura TL Type S 5at 2007 Ricardo Villa
8) 14.290 98.870
9) 14.300*# 99.000
10) 14.374* 97.630 Acura TL type s 2007 David Arias
11) 14.374* 97.120 Acura TL Type S 5AT 2007 JP Bearcat
12) 14.410*# 99.100 Acura TL SH-AWD 2009 NA
13) 14.500# 99.000
14) 14.516# 98.720
15) 14.590 96.800
16) 14.620# 96.000 Acura TL sh-awd 2009 na
17) 14.780*# 94.400
18) 14.790 93.390
19) 14.810*# 96.710 Acura TL SH-AWD 2009 NA
20) 14.812 97.280
The one glaring omission here is that there's not a single fully bolted Type-S 6MT or even a stock one for that matter. The entire list is comprised of base models of both transmissions, N/A and supercharged, and then 5AT Type-S's. If a stock S 6MT can trap 100mph corrected, I would think that one modded like OP's could hit 103-104 mph, corrected. I hope he hits up the track and posts a slip.
A lot of us gearheads are just left scratching their heads when we see kill stories like this posted and then we look at the ET/MPHs posted for NA 3rd gen TL/TLS. Either the 3rd gen TLS weighs 300lbs more than advertized or the dynos some people are testing on are a bit optimistic.
I'm still scratching my head when I read that a 4000 lb, power sapping AWD Audi can trap 107-108 mph on only 333 bhp! Maybe it's way underrated?
10-31-2011, 01:55 AM
#53
Instructor
Thread Starter
Well so far the reviews that I have seen for the S4 are trapping 106mph...Many of you are in agreement that a roll on race many things could happen.
I agree with everybody...I cant wait to go to the race track and see my times and traps. Hopefully I can dyno before the end of my short break here since i am returning overseas.
I will be back for xmas time. I would like to keep quiet on the Mugen set up for the TB...It is assured that is above a 72mm bore with matching based on a 2 stage venturi intake set-up. It was expensive, but the truth is that the car is working like a champ.
I am finally very happy with the new clutch set-up including the solid 6 puck disc on my car. The torque damper? Hmmm i think it is a waste of money since the car brings one all ready installed OEM.
I will not be optimistic about dyno numbers or track. I am trying to be realistic as possible. Based on my last dyno of 294whp/262wtq...I will assume the car is above 300whp and based on my weight setup for the track I should be on the 13.4/ 13.3 bracket...Trap will help reflect on the power given at the dynojet...
Bottom line is that I am very happy with the car's performance and I know what is capable of achieving.
I agree with everybody...I cant wait to go to the race track and see my times and traps. Hopefully I can dyno before the end of my short break here since i am returning overseas.
I will be back for xmas time. I would like to keep quiet on the Mugen set up for the TB...It is assured that is above a 72mm bore with matching based on a 2 stage venturi intake set-up. It was expensive, but the truth is that the car is working like a champ.
I am finally very happy with the new clutch set-up including the solid 6 puck disc on my car. The torque damper? Hmmm i think it is a waste of money since the car brings one all ready installed OEM.
I will not be optimistic about dyno numbers or track. I am trying to be realistic as possible. Based on my last dyno of 294whp/262wtq...I will assume the car is above 300whp and based on my weight setup for the track I should be on the 13.4/ 13.3 bracket...Trap will help reflect on the power given at the dynojet...
Bottom line is that I am very happy with the car's performance and I know what is capable of achieving.
10-31-2011, 02:01 AM
#54
Instructor
Thread Starter
This was my latest dyno result...My mechanic indicates that it was not 294 but 296whp...Hard to see on the screen but there it is...enjoy folks...6 months ago...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whVEo1XlleU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whVEo1XlleU
10-31-2011, 03:14 AM
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Well so far the reviews that I have seen for the S4 are trapping 106mph...Many of you are in agreement that a roll on race many things could happen.
I agree with everybody...I cant wait to go to the race track and see my times and traps. Hopefully I can dyno before the end of my short break here since i am returning overseas.
I will be back for xmas time. I would like to keep quiet on the Mugen set up for the TB...It is assured that is above a 72mm bore with matching based on a 2 stage venturi intake set-up. It was expensive, but the truth is that the car is working like a champ.
I am finally very happy with the new clutch set-up including the solid 6 puck disc on my car. The torque damper? Hmmm i think it is a waste of money since the car brings one all ready installed OEM.
I will not be optimistic about dyno numbers or track. I am trying to be realistic as possible. Based on my last dyno of 294whp/262wtq...I will assume the car is above 300whp and based on my weight setup for the track I should be on the 13.4/ 13.3 bracket...Trap will help reflect on the power given at the dynojet...
Bottom line is that I am very happy with the car's performance and I know what is capable of achieving.
I agree with everybody...I cant wait to go to the race track and see my times and traps. Hopefully I can dyno before the end of my short break here since i am returning overseas.
I will be back for xmas time. I would like to keep quiet on the Mugen set up for the TB...It is assured that is above a 72mm bore with matching based on a 2 stage venturi intake set-up. It was expensive, but the truth is that the car is working like a champ.
I am finally very happy with the new clutch set-up including the solid 6 puck disc on my car. The torque damper? Hmmm i think it is a waste of money since the car brings one all ready installed OEM.
I will not be optimistic about dyno numbers or track. I am trying to be realistic as possible. Based on my last dyno of 294whp/262wtq...I will assume the car is above 300whp and based on my weight setup for the track I should be on the 13.4/ 13.3 bracket...Trap will help reflect on the power given at the dynojet...
Bottom line is that I am very happy with the car's performance and I know what is capable of achieving.
yeah 296 is very nice....I wanted to be in the 290's right now but you shattered my dreams by posting a type S MT being at ~300....
about the mugen setup thats nice....PM me details if you dont mind....I have mine bored out and am planning on upgrading the injectors....any fuel injectors upgrade you got done ?
This was my latest dyno result...My mechanic indicates that it was not 294 but 296whp...Hard to see on the screen but there it is...enjoy folks...6 months ago...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whVEo1XlleU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whVEo1XlleU
10-31-2011, 04:04 AM
#56
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Since anyone can post thier time slips to the site someone with a 13 second TLS might want to step up for the home team.
If JuamPs 69 can pick up another 15 or so whp (310whp) he should be in the mid/low 13's so he can post for you. That would put him in 2nd place of all the Acura TL's that have posted & in first place of all the n/a's. I wish him good luck.
Quick question on “normalized” numbers...I see a lot of normalizing for better results, does anyone ever normalize them down?
10-31-2011, 04:33 AM
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^^^ you have been not being paying attention my friend....
There are many many supercharged TL's which push more to the ground than OP's car....many turbo TL's and TL-S's which got more than 150 hp than the OP....
There are 2-3 weight reduced car's (NA) will pull on the OP and 1-2 cars which are bored and are NA which will keep the OP fading in the rear view mirror....
so yeah in the NA run the OP will finish close to 5th and in the FI run he wont stand a chance
There are many many supercharged TL's which push more to the ground than OP's car....many turbo TL's and TL-S's which got more than 150 hp than the OP....
There are 2-3 weight reduced car's (NA) will pull on the OP and 1-2 cars which are bored and are NA which will keep the OP fading in the rear view mirror....
so yeah in the NA run the OP will finish close to 5th and in the FI run he wont stand a chance
10-31-2011, 08:35 AM
#58
All motor
Well, if I trapped 101.17 with a broken tranny mount, tons of engine movement, and bolt ons, I'm assuming a full bolt on TL-s will trap a good bit higher. I will PM the person I know has ran a 13.7 @102.9 with I/Jpipe/PCDs on his TL-s 6MT and see if he can post up his timeslip.
10-31-2011, 11:35 AM
#59
Suzuka Master
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^^^ you have been not being paying attention my friend....
There are many many supercharged TL's which push more to the ground than OP's car....many turbo TL's and TL-S's which got more than 150 hp than the OP....
There are 2-3 weight reduced car's (NA) will pull on the OP and 1-2 cars which are bored and are NA which will keep the OP fading in the rear view mirror....
so yeah in the NA run the OP will finish close to 5th and in the FI run he wont stand a chance
There are many many supercharged TL's which push more to the ground than OP's car....many turbo TL's and TL-S's which got more than 150 hp than the OP....
There are 2-3 weight reduced car's (NA) will pull on the OP and 1-2 cars which are bored and are NA which will keep the OP fading in the rear view mirror....
so yeah in the NA run the OP will finish close to 5th and in the FI run he wont stand a chance
10-31-2011, 11:38 AM
#60
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
Sorry but its not an omission, that implys left out, there are just none posted. Guess there is just a lot more bench/stat racing in Acuraland then actual track racing.
Since anyone can post thier time slips to the site someone with a 13 second TLS might want to step up for the home team.
If JuamPs 69 can pick up another 15 or so whp (310whp) he should be in the mid/low 13's so he can post for you. That would put him in 2nd place of all the Acura TL's that have posted & in first place of all the n/a's. I wish him good luck.
Quick question on “normalized” numbers...I see a lot of normalizing for better results, does anyone ever normalize them down?
Since anyone can post thier time slips to the site someone with a 13 second TLS might want to step up for the home team.
If JuamPs 69 can pick up another 15 or so whp (310whp) he should be in the mid/low 13's so he can post for you. That would put him in 2nd place of all the Acura TL's that have posted & in first place of all the n/a's. I wish him good luck.
Quick question on “normalized” numbers...I see a lot of normalizing for better results, does anyone ever normalize them down?
And if by normalizing you mean correcting, it's all about bragging rights; kind of like purposely searching for a dyno that's highly optimistic. Most of the magazines do correct though.
A lot of people don't seem to understand how location and weather can affect a car's performance. For example, take car #3 from that Drag Time's list (which BTW, isn't supercharged, just has bolt ons). He ran a 13.70 @ 101.63. Now, he didn't put up the slip, but there is a video of that run on youtube. It was run at Mission Raceway in BC, Canada (25' track elevation), at night. Drag Time's DA calculator is down right now, but I've checked it before for that particular run, and the temps were somewhere in the 30's in the evening on 11/29/06. That run corrects to 14.0x @ 99.xx mph. Great ET for a FWD with that trap speed, but it puts things into perspective power wise.
My opinion is that the base 6MT with full bolt ons and maybe some induction porting (but no tune) will usually correct to somewhere in the 100-101 mph range and the Type-S 6MT with the same mods will be ~103. (Of course, you may find an occasional freak)
Last edited by anx1300c; 10-31-2011 at 11:40 AM.
10-31-2011, 11:58 AM
#61
All motor
You also have to take into consideration the lack of TL's that go to the track. Only a select few of TL owners actually make it to an 1/8th or 1/4 mile track. The car is not marketed as a performance vehicle like the G35 or 335 is. Although they both ensue luxury as well, they are more performance oriented. Out of the say, 500 TL's I have seen on the road, maybe 10% were driven by someone younger than 40. Out of the G35s I've seen, I'd say half were younger than 40.
The G35 and 335 seem to bring different types of people behind the wheel than the TL does. I ran a guy in his 40s who was driving a 335. I'd be damned to see a 40yr old in a TL race me.
With that said, out of the TL's that do go to the track, there are not many that run great times. Do you know why? Nearly 95% are on street tires, go maybe once or twice per year (if even that much), and aren't on any kind of lightweight wheel setup. If there was a TL that had lightweight 16s mounted on a slicks, with mods and a good driver, it'd easily see low 13s if not high 12s. Even the Civic Si's are setup for the track and is why you see such great times for them. There are several in the mid 13s with just bolt ons. Why? Because when they go to the track, they are set up to run well, as opposed to the TL owners who want to see how their car performs as is.
I'm not knocking TL owners, or any other car owner. All I'm saying is, it's much harder to come across a great run for the TL because they are so few cars set up to run such times. If there were more, I'm sure we'd see plenty of low-mid 13s @103-104 with the right tire setup. I'm just the same. I can't justify spending $400 on slicks and another $350 or so on a 16" lightweight wheel setup when I go to the track 2-3x a year. If I were to go more frequently it'd be a different story, but I don't.
If someone in the area were to lend me their wheel/tire setup for a couple runs at the track, I'd be more than happy to run some 13.4s.
ANX: I agree with you as well, elevation and DA have a big impact on the overall time and trap speed as well. On a side note, I'm pretty positive our motors are similar to the K series in that, some mods won't necessarily increase power unless you tune. Or, the increases will be slim until a proper tune is done. There is only 1 TL that is tuned and gone to the track and that is Gerzand. His TL is automatic, was on 19s, has full bolt ons/ported mani/runners/stage 2 cams/tune. He trapped 103 in the auto. If he were a 6 speed I wouldn't be surprised to see his trap increase to 105+, on 19" wheels. Is this speculation? You better believe it, but it's not farfetched.
The G35 and 335 seem to bring different types of people behind the wheel than the TL does. I ran a guy in his 40s who was driving a 335. I'd be damned to see a 40yr old in a TL race me.
With that said, out of the TL's that do go to the track, there are not many that run great times. Do you know why? Nearly 95% are on street tires, go maybe once or twice per year (if even that much), and aren't on any kind of lightweight wheel setup. If there was a TL that had lightweight 16s mounted on a slicks, with mods and a good driver, it'd easily see low 13s if not high 12s. Even the Civic Si's are setup for the track and is why you see such great times for them. There are several in the mid 13s with just bolt ons. Why? Because when they go to the track, they are set up to run well, as opposed to the TL owners who want to see how their car performs as is.
I'm not knocking TL owners, or any other car owner. All I'm saying is, it's much harder to come across a great run for the TL because they are so few cars set up to run such times. If there were more, I'm sure we'd see plenty of low-mid 13s @103-104 with the right tire setup. I'm just the same. I can't justify spending $400 on slicks and another $350 or so on a 16" lightweight wheel setup when I go to the track 2-3x a year. If I were to go more frequently it'd be a different story, but I don't.
If someone in the area were to lend me their wheel/tire setup for a couple runs at the track, I'd be more than happy to run some 13.4s.
ANX: I agree with you as well, elevation and DA have a big impact on the overall time and trap speed as well. On a side note, I'm pretty positive our motors are similar to the K series in that, some mods won't necessarily increase power unless you tune. Or, the increases will be slim until a proper tune is done. There is only 1 TL that is tuned and gone to the track and that is Gerzand. His TL is automatic, was on 19s, has full bolt ons/ported mani/runners/stage 2 cams/tune. He trapped 103 in the auto. If he were a 6 speed I wouldn't be surprised to see his trap increase to 105+, on 19" wheels. Is this speculation? You better believe it, but it's not farfetched.
Last edited by Sonnick; 10-31-2011 at 12:05 PM.
10-31-2011, 03:03 PM
#62
Burning Brakes
If car A does 106mph in 1/4 mile and it's running against car B that does 103mph, car A is going to walk away from car B in a low mph roll race assuming both cars have decent gearing. The whole argument that the TL/TLS cars have incredible acceleration from a roll is silly. The car probably feels fast from a roll because it's relatively weak on the lowend and a bit slow to 40mph. Don't let torque curves fool your mind into thinking the car is doing something it's not.
There is only 1 TL that is tuned and gone to the track and that is Gerzand. His TL is automatic, was on 19s, has full bolt ons/ported mani/runners/stage 2 cams/tune. He trapped 103 in the auto. If he were a 6 speed I wouldn't be surprised to see his trap increase to 105+, on 19" wheels. Is this speculation? You better believe it, but it's not farfetched.
10-31-2011, 03:09 PM
#63
Burning Brakes
German horses are always stronger. In most cases, Germans have historically underrated the power of their cars. The 335i is underrated and yes, the 2010+ S4 is underrated as well. It's listed at 333hp/325tq, but most dynos are showing more like 380-400hp at the flywheel or about 320-330awhp.
10-31-2011, 03:25 PM
#64
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If there was a TL that had lightweight 16s mounted on a slicks, with mods and a good driver, it'd easily see low 13s if not high 12s.............All I'm saying is, it's much harder to come across a great run for the TL because they are so few cars set up to run such times.......................If there were more, I'm sure we'd see plenty of low-mid 13s @103-104 with the right tire setup...............ANX: I agree with you as well There is only 1 TL that is tuned and gone to the track and that is Gerzand. His TL is automatic, was on 19s, has full bolt ons/ported mani/runners/stage 2 cams/tune. He trapped 103 in the auto.
Most of the contenders for solid repeatable 13 second TL’s have quite a few bucks in them especially when you start talking about port matching, cams, headers, throttle bodies, tunes & tires. These are very big steps up over an air filter & cat delete. A lot of people do the cai/cat-del as mods in themselves instead of mods that enable the real mods to work well.
What I am talking about is the typical poster here with a CAI & loud exhaust that is sure he has a solid 13 second car because some other guy with a similar CAI & noisy exhaust has claimed that his TL will do it. There is a lot of hearing what you want to hear on this site because of the lack of a broad base of posters who have actually ever run a car at a drag strip or track day.
Many of these claims make as much sense as me claiming I have a 12.6/112mph car just because someone with the same car & set up can make those runs. So far all I have is a dyno base run, no track time & no dyno run after I installed the tune. So all I have right now is a car that feels quicker then pure stock period.
10-31-2011, 03:39 PM
#65
Under construction
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I don't put a lot of faith in his timeslip. He listed the 1/8 ET at 8.74@77.50 and finished the 1/4 at a 14.2@103mph. Two things that are really screwy. One, the 1/8 ET is way quick for a 14.2. A car that runs 8.7s in the 1/8 will easily finish with a 13.5 if not better. Two, his car is gaining nearly 26mph in the last 1/8 mile. That's Z06 terriority in terms of acceleration. Most cars will see a 19-20mph gain in the last 1/8. Cars with strong topend will see 22-23mph (TLs in included here). But 25-26mph? That takes lots and lots of HP. It all doesn't add up for an NA 5AT TL. My guess is he's using some sort of on-board accelerometer to get his numbers.
If a TL runs anything above a 102mph trap speed you are all over them like it's not possible. Let it go
10-31-2011, 03:42 PM
#66
All motor
Dave, I see where you're coming from. I'm not here to make excuses, although it may seem so. The TL isn't fast, we all know this. I was just pointing out it's not always 'apples to apples' when comparing the TL's best times to some other cars best times because of the lack of TL drivers that make an appearance at the track.
With that said, I too questioned that time slip in the quarter mile thread. Thanks for pointing that out as its validity is still unconfirmed. 26mph is MOVING for the second half of the 1/4. I averaged ~21.5mph in the last 1/8th over 2 of my runs, and 22.55mph on my last run, but missing 3rd accounted for that I'm sure. Although, maybe some cams and a tune is all the TL needs to really wake up
But then maybe 23mph gain...26 is LSx territory.
I'm gonna get tuned over the winter. When I do, I will be sure to go back to the track and see what I've gained. If I don't trap 103+ tuned, the car may be converted back to stock.
With that said, I too questioned that time slip in the quarter mile thread. Thanks for pointing that out as its validity is still unconfirmed. 26mph is MOVING for the second half of the 1/4. I averaged ~21.5mph in the last 1/8th over 2 of my runs, and 22.55mph on my last run, but missing 3rd accounted for that I'm sure. Although, maybe some cams and a tune is all the TL needs to really wake up
But then maybe 23mph gain...26 is LSx territory.I'm gonna get tuned over the winter. When I do, I will be sure to go back to the track and see what I've gained. If I don't trap 103+ tuned, the car may be converted back to stock.
Last edited by Sonnick; 10-31-2011 at 03:44 PM.
10-31-2011, 03:46 PM
#67
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German horses are always stronger. In most cases, Germans have historically underrated the power of their cars. The 335i is underrated and yes, the 2010+ S4 is underrated as well. It's listed at 333hp/325tq, but most dynos are showing more like 380-400hp at the flywheel or about 320-330awhp.
, my dyno 312whp base @ BMW's standard 15% friction loss factor gives me 369bhp. The car is advertised by BMW at 320bhp.Might be a good plan to look at all those time slips AlexSUA+ is talking about & see what the second half mph gains really are.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-31-2011 at 03:55 PM.
10-31-2011, 03:50 PM
#68
16GS FSprt,03Max,12 335is
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In the inimitable words of Anx1300c “your just figuring that out?” When it comes to modified cars the general limit on how quick/fast any car is how much money you have available to spend on it.
Most of the contenders for solid repeatable 13 second TL’s have quite a few bucks in them especially when you start talking about port matching, cams, headers, throttle bodies, tunes & tires. These are very big steps up over an air filter & cat delete. A lot of people do the cai/cat-del as mods in themselves instead of mods that enable the real mods to work well.
What I am talking about is the typical poster here with a CAI & loud exhaust that is sure he has a solid 13 second car because some other guy with a similar CAI & noisy exhaust has claimed that his TL will do it. There is a lot of hearing what you want to hear on this site because of the lack of a broad base of posters who have actually ever run a car at a drag strip or track day.
Many of these claims make as much sense as me claiming I have a 12.6/112mph car just because someone with the same car & set up can make those runs. So far all I have is a dyno base run, no track time & no dyno run after I installed the tune. So all I have right now is a car that feels quicker then pure stock period.
Most of the contenders for solid repeatable 13 second TL’s have quite a few bucks in them especially when you start talking about port matching, cams, headers, throttle bodies, tunes & tires. These are very big steps up over an air filter & cat delete. A lot of people do the cai/cat-del as mods in themselves instead of mods that enable the real mods to work well.
What I am talking about is the typical poster here with a CAI & loud exhaust that is sure he has a solid 13 second car because some other guy with a similar CAI & noisy exhaust has claimed that his TL will do it. There is a lot of hearing what you want to hear on this site because of the lack of a broad base of posters who have actually ever run a car at a drag strip or track day.
Many of these claims make as much sense as me claiming I have a 12.6/112mph car just because someone with the same car & set up can make those runs. So far all I have is a dyno base run, no track time & no dyno run after I installed the tune. So all I have right now is a car that feels quicker then pure stock period.
10-31-2011, 04:03 PM
#69
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Dave, I see where you're coming from. I'm not here to make excuses, although it may seem so. The TL isn't fast, we all know this. I was just pointing out it's not always 'apples to apples' when comparing the TL's best times to some other cars best times because of the lack of TL drivers that make an appearance at the track.
With that said, I too questioned that time slip in the quarter mile thread. Thanks for pointing that out as its validity is still unconfirmed. 26mph is MOVING for the second half of the 1/4. I averaged ~21.5mph in the last 1/8th over 2 of my runs, and 22.55mph on my last run, but missing 3rd accounted for that I'm sure. Although, maybe some cams and a tune is all the TL needs to really wake up But then maybe 23mph gain...26 is LSx territory.
I'm gonna get tuned over the winter. When I do, I will be sure to go back to the track and see what I've gained. If I don't trap 103+ tuned, the car may be converted back to stock.
With that said, I too questioned that time slip in the quarter mile thread. Thanks for pointing that out as its validity is still unconfirmed. 26mph is MOVING for the second half of the 1/4. I averaged ~21.5mph in the last 1/8th over 2 of my runs, and 22.55mph on my last run, but missing 3rd accounted for that I'm sure. Although, maybe some cams and a tune is all the TL needs to really wake up
But then maybe 23mph gain...26 is LSx territory.I'm gonna get tuned over the winter. When I do, I will be sure to go back to the track and see what I've gained. If I don't trap 103+ tuned, the car may be converted back to stock.
10-31-2011, 05:49 PM
#70
Burning Brakes
General rule of thumb is you can take the first 1/8th mile ET by 1.52-1.55 to get a very close idea (usually within .1 seconds) of what the car will end up with in the 1/4 mile. 8.74 times 1.55 comes out to be a 13.54. Maybe this guy let off midway through the final 1/8 mile you say? Okay. If that's the case then how in the world is his TL accelerating like a C6Z on the back half gaining nearly 26mph while letting off? Case in point, something isn't correct with the slip.
As for your 102mph rant, once I see a few TL/TLS start posting some MPHs in excess of 103mph, then I may start believing some of these wild stories. A 3,600lb car with 290whp should easily be able to 105mph in 1,500' air. To date, the only legit slips you guys have are of 3rd gen TLS' running sub 102mph and a few below 100mph. I'm in no way saying it's impossible, but it definitely hasn't been posted on this site. There's a lot of speculation and rumbling about people trapping 103mph+, but the real slips never seem to get posted up. I think 102-103mph would be pretty easy to do, honestly. I know these motors aren't slouches for V6s and are just as good as any non-HR VQ motor.
10-31-2011, 06:44 PM
#71
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Another quick follow up.... with Juice Box BMW 335i's pushing 16psi boost levels a typical 11.8/117 car runs low to mid 90’s in the 1/8 mile & gains 23mph in the second half. How sure are all of you that the 25/26mph second half TL speed is not either a mistake or deliberate cut/paste?
A 26mph gain in the second half just does not fit together well with an 77mph 1/8 mile to anyone who has any actual experience drag racing. Plain fact is no N/A car only running a 77mph 1/8 mile will have the balls to lay down a 26mph second half when a 450hp+ turbo car that weighs the same within +- 100lbs can only manage 23mph.
A 26mph gain in the second half just does not fit together well with an 77mph 1/8 mile to anyone who has any actual experience drag racing. Plain fact is no N/A car only running a 77mph 1/8 mile will have the balls to lay down a 26mph second half when a 450hp+ turbo car that weighs the same within +- 100lbs can only manage 23mph.
10-31-2011, 07:26 PM
#72
All motor
I agreed and said the 26mph seemed off. I was the first one to question it in the 1/4 mile compilation thread.
http://www.ajdesigner.com/phphorsepo...horsepower.php
Using that site I just entered my car's weight with me in it (~3350lbs) and my best trap speed 101.17. It then calculated my HP to be 270.74. That would put me around what, 240whp? I'd say that's a fair guess. I got dyno'd at 255, which was a spike, so it was really 250. I'm actually gonna change it in my sig come to think of it. I heard it was a low reading dyno, but apparently not. Not that I thought I was making more than that...
http://www.ajdesigner.com/phphorsepo...horsepower.php
Using that site I just entered my car's weight with me in it (~3350lbs) and my best trap speed 101.17. It then calculated my HP to be 270.74. That would put me around what, 240whp? I'd say that's a fair guess. I got dyno'd at 255, which was a spike, so it was really 250. I'm actually gonna change it in my sig come to think of it. I heard it was a low reading dyno, but apparently not. Not that I thought I was making more than that...
10-31-2011, 09:32 PM
#74
Burning Brakes
this is really hard to believe, but nice kill. maybe it was a 6speed and he couldnt drive, or maybe ur car is just faster. regardless, he probably feels like crap lmfaoo
10-31-2011, 09:49 PM
#75
Suzuka Master
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11-01-2011, 02:35 AM
#79
Instructor
Thread Starter
Look folks...I have been on this industry for a while my friends...Many are scratching heads wether it happened or not...Bottom line is that it did...Once again...it was a ROLL ON race...maybe on the 1/4 mile first gear the S4 could kick my ass since its awd...who knows right?
I will be trying my best to give you some real numbers ASAP...I do have a second car which is my race car...A 97 Integra GSR 750whp on the old set up from the summer running 9's....
Having said this...I am not some douch making caca up...When the time comes for the TL it will...(regarding dyno numbers and 1/4 mile runs)...As an incentive I hope you enjoy this video...taken at West Palm Beach track with my true street category integra...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj_Zh...eature=related
I will be trying my best to give you some real numbers ASAP...I do have a second car which is my race car...A 97 Integra GSR 750whp on the old set up from the summer running 9's....
Having said this...I am not some douch making caca up...When the time comes for the TL it will...(regarding dyno numbers and 1/4 mile runs)...As an incentive I hope you enjoy this video...taken at West Palm Beach track with my true street category integra...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj_Zh...eature=related
11-01-2011, 06:15 AM
#80
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That being said a 25mph+ gain outside of some very fast cars is not usual.
BTW since Libert is running a turbo there is no reason why he can't have a run that does not fit the N/A norms, but like anyone else he can post his times. SC & Turbos can still be running hard when an N/A car is out of breath. Its all a matter of how much boost the motor can take.
On the crap load of 25/26mph gainning BMW a quick look suggests there are about 121 listings of 12 second runs & 37 runs of 11.991 or better for the BMW 335i. A few 12.0 runs mostly at the 12.0/12.1 range, including the quickest at 12.007/117mph, pulled a 25mph gain while most of the rest of the 121 ran 22/23 mph in the second half of their 12 second runs.
Looking at 12 second BMW 335i’s that posted both time slip & dyno run the 3rd quickest @ 12.016/117mph-423whp gained 25mph & the 5th quickest 12.103/118.770mph-402whp gained 23mph in the second half.
At the other end the slowest 12 second run I could find with a dyno was 12.760/110mph-322whp gained 24mph. The next one I could find a dyno graph for showed 12.623/111mph-384whp with a 23mph gain & a 12.500/109mph-384whp with a 22mph gain
On the 11 second runs the quickest 11.108/127.2mph gained 30mph while the fastest 11.339/132mph gained 31mph. Horsepower on these 11 second cars is in the 512whp or 588bhp per their posted dyno runs.