08 MT Type S vs 11 Audi S4
11-02-2011, 04:53 PM
#122
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I agree with Sonnick. Power to weight is simply that, HP vs curb weight. The lighter you are, the faster you'll go. Period. The weight has no effect on power to the wheels or crank power.
Crank power in SAE terms is the power of the motor without any coupling to a transmission. It's measured dyno power measured directly at the flywheel. This is power sent through the manifolds/headers, not a motor without manifolds because that would run like crap.
The easiest way to reduce drivetrain losses is to reduce rotational inertia. This would include:
1) Lighter/narrower wheels and tires
2) Lighter driveshafts, halfshafts, flywheels, brake rotors, smaller accessory/crank pullies
3) Lighter, more efficent torque converter
4) Smaller pullies on belt drive water pumps or alternators
You can also remove accessories and belts or go with lower output alternators.
Crank power in SAE terms is the power of the motor without any coupling to a transmission. It's measured dyno power measured directly at the flywheel. This is power sent through the manifolds/headers, not a motor without manifolds because that would run like crap.
The easiest way to reduce drivetrain losses is to reduce rotational inertia. This would include:
1) Lighter/narrower wheels and tires
2) Lighter driveshafts, halfshafts, flywheels, brake rotors, smaller accessory/crank pullies
3) Lighter, more efficent torque converter
4) Smaller pullies on belt drive water pumps or alternators
You can also remove accessories and belts or go with lower output alternators.
Swoosh,
You're confused, man. Let's go to school and I'll save you some money in a very risky bet. A chassis dyno is a very simple device. It's basically comprised of a weighted or brake manipulated roller, an rpm pickup, and a timer. You strap you place drive wheels on the roller, hook up the rpm pickup, and zero the timer. You bring the rpms up to the desired start rpm in a gear closest to a 1:1 ratio. Once you're ready, you mash the gas and timer switch at the same time and time the run until you let off. A simple calculation is done using the rpm data and rate at which the weighted/braked rollers were spun over the time of the run. From there you get hp/tq across the rpm range.
So that's a dyno in nutshell. So now, how does the weight of the car come into play here? The motor isn't tugging the weight of the car at all. It's simply spinning a 1,000-2,000lb roller or a roller being drug by a brake.
By your rational, a 306hp Camaro V6 6AT shouldn't make the same power as a 306hp Caddy CTS 3.6 6AT. Same drivetrain, same engine, same power. The only difference is the Caddy weighs about 300lbs more. On the dyno, they make the same exact power.
You're confused, man. Let's go to school and I'll save you some money in a very risky bet. A chassis dyno is a very simple device. It's basically comprised of a weighted or brake manipulated roller, an rpm pickup, and a timer. You strap you place drive wheels on the roller, hook up the rpm pickup, and zero the timer. You bring the rpms up to the desired start rpm in a gear closest to a 1:1 ratio. Once you're ready, you mash the gas and timer switch at the same time and time the run until you let off. A simple calculation is done using the rpm data and rate at which the weighted/braked rollers were spun over the time of the run. From there you get hp/tq across the rpm range.
So that's a dyno in nutshell. So now, how does the weight of the car come into play here? The motor isn't tugging the weight of the car at all. It's simply spinning a 1,000-2,000lb roller or a roller being drug by a brake.
By your rational, a 306hp Camaro V6 6AT shouldn't make the same power as a 306hp Caddy CTS 3.6 6AT. Same drivetrain, same engine, same power. The only difference is the Caddy weighs about 300lbs more. On the dyno, they make the same exact power.
so the weight reduction will only reflect on quicker track times ?
Trying to come up with a few ways how this could be possible, I am thinking of it in this way, if weight adds additional strain on the drivetrain and you reduce a significant amount of it, you could in essence be freeing up a small bit of power at the same time but the car really becomes faster because of the underlying principle of hp to weight.
It could be another one of those grey areas, not to the extent that it may be getting made out to be but, it's possible. These areas do exist, much like how we see roughly a 10% drivetrain loss for some cars as opposed to a generalized figure of 15% and whether that means the engine is truly underrated and/or if there is actually less power loss.
It could be another one of those grey areas, not to the extent that it may be getting made out to be but, it's possible. These areas do exist, much like how we see roughly a 10% drivetrain loss for some cars as opposed to a generalized figure of 15% and whether that means the engine is truly underrated and/or if there is actually less power loss.
Swoosh, wouldn't it be easier to dyno with five people in the car, rather than removing items?
If your theory were correct, dynoing with an extra 1,000 lbs of dead weight in the car would decrease power, but it won't. Nor will it read any higher if you dyno the same car with the body completely removed from the chassis. The only things affecting the ability of the engine to spin the dyno rollers are the weight/efficiency of the transmission, axles, wheels, hubs, tires, rotors, (drive shaft on a RWD car) etc. Now if you removed weight from the car by replacing these items with lighter pieces, then you'd see an increase in WHP, but the weight of the rest of the car is inconsequential.
If your theory were correct, dynoing with an extra 1,000 lbs of dead weight in the car would decrease power, but it won't. Nor will it read any higher if you dyno the same car with the body completely removed from the chassis. The only things affecting the ability of the engine to spin the dyno rollers are the weight/efficiency of the transmission, axles, wheels, hubs, tires, rotors, (drive shaft on a RWD car) etc. Now if you removed weight from the car by replacing these items with lighter pieces, then you'd see an increase in WHP, but the weight of the rest of the car is inconsequential.
and kudos for thinking outside the box with placing the weight in the car....i am still not satisfied and I might try this when I get back LOL....
Thanks fella's for keeping ur cool with me on this
11-02-2011, 06:17 PM
#123
Suzuka Master
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You were headed down the right road Swoosh. Lighter wheels and tires will increase WHP by a fair amount, which is why dynos that attach directly to the hub read significantly higher. In fact, tires can have a more drastic effect than wheels because the weight of the tire is concentrated further away from the axis of inertia, hence requiring more power to keep them turning. I certainly felt a difference when I replaced my bald Turanzas (24 lbs new, even less when worn) with brand new 29 lb Potenza 960's.
11-03-2011, 02:34 AM
#125
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You were headed down the right road Swoosh. Lighter wheels and tires will increase WHP by a fair amount, which is why dynos that attach directly to the hub read significantly higher. In fact, tires can have a more drastic effect than wheels because the weight of the tire is concentrated further away from the axis of inertia, hence requiring more power to keep them turning. I certainly felt a difference when I replaced my bald Turanzas (24 lbs new, even less when worn) with brand new 29 lb Potenza 960's.
11-03-2011, 10:52 AM
#126
Burning Brakes
makes sense....now all the while i was thinking of a 2 axle dyno....where the full car is moving as compared to a 1 axle dyno where only the front axle (for TL's) is moving....in a 1 axle dyno i know there will not be any difference in the dyno hp/tq numbers....might change for the 2 axle dyno ? Sorry I dont know the proper terminology here....
11-03-2011, 03:29 PM
#127
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Weight effects actual real world performance (faster/slower) as the cars lbs per HP ratio changes with removal or addition of weight. Dyno is only measuring torque/horsepower which indicates what the HP factor is.
You need a scale to get the weight factor.
You need a scale to get the weight factor.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-03-2011 at 03:32 PM.
11-08-2011, 01:24 AM
#128
Instructor
Thread Starter
There was a huge street car reunion today...
We had a good time.... to start off...I asked myself why waste gas? LMAO
But several results happened
First a 2005 Maxima 3.5L with intake and exhaust...ppffffff!!!! See yaa!!!
Second a 350z with intake, exhaust, and God knows what else...didn't even bothered
Then this cool dude with a 2005 RXS Type S Mods to include:
Intake, Full Exhaust, Fuel Rail with pressure regulator, ECU...Decided to match a race with me...
There is a video...hopefully they will post it online soon...There was no sweat at all...I have lots of respect for a k20 engine like the RSX particularly if they are modded...Those engines produce Demons...
He claims a 13.7 at the quarter mile...The race was on a roll-on of 40mph and my car was sitting on the start at 4,000rpms...By the shift of 4th gear I was at least 4 cars ahead and gaining....Hopefully they will post the video soon...
Once again another fun night with evidence of the capabilities of the TL
We had a good time.... to start off...I asked myself why waste gas? LMAO
But several results happened
First a 2005 Maxima 3.5L with intake and exhaust...ppffffff!!!! See yaa!!!
Second a 350z with intake, exhaust, and God knows what else...didn't even bothered
Then this cool dude with a 2005 RXS Type S Mods to include:
Intake, Full Exhaust, Fuel Rail with pressure regulator, ECU...Decided to match a race with me...
There is a video...hopefully they will post it online soon...There was no sweat at all...I have lots of respect for a k20 engine like the RSX particularly if they are modded...Those engines produce Demons...
He claims a 13.7 at the quarter mile...The race was on a roll-on of 40mph and my car was sitting on the start at 4,000rpms...By the shift of 4th gear I was at least 4 cars ahead and gaining....Hopefully they will post the video soon...
Once again another fun night with evidence of the capabilities of the TL
11-08-2011, 01:46 AM
#129
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What exhaust mods you have ?
GREAT KILLS !!!
GREAT KILLS !!!
11-08-2011, 08:23 AM
#131
All motor
11-08-2011, 02:16 PM
#133
Safety Car
interesting thread. i've driven the newer 3.0T S4's and they've got quite the pull at lower speeds/revs. OP, you're making more than my 37! doesn't really surprise me that you took out that S4 though. the tl-s' are rather surprisingly quick with bolt ons! nice kill!
i'm sure the story would've been much different if he had a little more boost past 5k (where they die out).
i'm sure the story would've been much different if he had a little more boost past 5k (where they die out).
11-08-2011, 08:27 PM
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11-09-2011, 08:34 AM
#136
All motor
Juam: Any idea on when you will get a chance to head to the track?
11-12-2011, 10:40 AM
#138
Instructor
Thread Starter
Sonnick sorry for the bump dude...Didnt have the time before returning overseas...Im back in Afghanistan. Epic Failure LMAO!!!
I will be returning for X-mas by then I will have both Dyno and Test Track runs!!!
D' thanks a lot!!!
I will be returning for X-mas by then I will have both Dyno and Test Track runs!!!
D' thanks a lot!!!
11-12-2011, 11:05 AM
#139
Senior Moderator
11-12-2011, 11:32 AM
#140
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11-13-2011, 03:09 AM
#142
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My nephew who spent two tours with the USMC is now over there as a contractor training the Afghan National Army in small unit tactics.
11-15-2011, 08:54 AM
#143
All motor
God bless man! Be safe out there. Anxiously awaiting results...
11-15-2011, 11:46 AM
#144
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks everybody...Maaaann!!! I cant wait to see the results...
Im so anxious to do more work on the car...Like J&R ECU, Bisimoto cam, and full head work by PortFlow...
PPppfff having said that I should be easily reaching 340-350whp if my car is at 300whp as expected all ready...Still lots of research to do regarding tuning for NA engines with that ECU, feedback on the Bisimoto regrind-cam to then do the whole headwork...
Lots of variables to study...it is achieveable, but requires a lot of patience and time.
Im so anxious to do more work on the car...Like J&R ECU, Bisimoto cam, and full head work by PortFlow...
PPppfff having said that I should be easily reaching 340-350whp if my car is at 300whp as expected all ready...Still lots of research to do regarding tuning for NA engines with that ECU, feedback on the Bisimoto regrind-cam to then do the whole headwork...
Lots of variables to study...it is achieveable, but requires a lot of patience and time.
11-15-2011, 07:45 PM
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^^^ MORE
if you have a 6SPD and cam work done and well tuned by JnR you are looking past 375 to the wheels....
Andy is doing is built....his NA BASE 5AT was pushing 330 to the wheels with all these mods....he recently upgraded to a Type S 6MT and switching all the stuff.....
if you have a 6SPD and cam work done and well tuned by JnR you are looking past 375 to the wheels....
Andy is doing is built....his NA BASE 5AT was pushing 330 to the wheels with all these mods....he recently upgraded to a Type S 6MT and switching all the stuff.....
11-16-2011, 01:35 AM
#146
Suzuka Master
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^^^ MORE
if you have a 6SPD and cam work done and well tuned by JnR you are looking past 375 to the wheels....
Andy is doing is built....his NA BASE 5AT was pushing 330 to the wheels with all these mods....he recently upgraded to a Type S 6MT and switching all the stuff.....
if you have a 6SPD and cam work done and well tuned by JnR you are looking past 375 to the wheels....
Andy is doing is built....his NA BASE 5AT was pushing 330 to the wheels with all these mods....he recently upgraded to a Type S 6MT and switching all the stuff.....
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11-16-2011, 01:57 AM
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he pmed me....since he got the type - s I asked him if he was willing to sell his current setup to me and how much he was making....
with the type-s cam and ECU tune he was making 330....with the ECU and without the tune he was around 315-320....
with the type-s cam and ECU tune he was making 330....with the ECU and without the tune he was around 315-320....
11-16-2011, 08:11 AM
#148
All motor
Juam: I think you can definitely put down or even surpass 350 with all the bolt ons/portwork/cams/tune as well. As long as you have a good tune, it's definitely possible.
11-16-2011, 09:36 AM
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^^^ on his base he was running the Type-S cam....and then upgraded....on his type-S he is gonna transfer the bisi cam and I was thinking of grabbing the type-s cam....
11-16-2011, 10:36 AM
#150
All motor
I'm confused. There's no way he made 320atw with the Type S cam in his base 5AT. In the video he posted in his thread, he was running the Stage 2 cam, he even clarified that. I'm still confused :/
11-16-2011, 07:45 PM
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^^^ you could be right bro....maybe I got confused with the many things he told me....
I know he was pushing ~290-ish then he got the ECU and tuned it and was running 325-330....but am just trying to connect everything in my head....so I very well could be confused....
in that case I would be getting a hell of a deal on the Bisi cam....Andy am coming LOL....
I know he was pushing ~290-ish then he got the ECU and tuned it and was running 325-330....but am just trying to connect everything in my head....so I very well could be confused....
in that case I would be getting a hell of a deal on the Bisi cam....Andy am coming LOL....
11-18-2011, 02:51 AM
#152
Instructor
Thread Starter
I wanted to do the Bisimoto cam with no tune...But then again i think its a BAAADDD idea....In my opinion everything should be done, its a chain reaction...If you are going for the cam? Ok...do the whole head work with springs, retainers etc...Since the cam is in place all ready....the tune is a must...
I dont know or havent read the reviews of the regrind cams or results from anybody...You guys have any links? How can i get a hold of this Andy dude?
I dont know or havent read the reviews of the regrind cams or results from anybody...You guys have any links? How can i get a hold of this Andy dude?
11-18-2011, 04:06 AM
#154
I wanted to do the Bisimoto cam with no tune...But then again i think its a BAAADDD idea....In my opinion everything should be done, its a chain reaction...If you are going for the cam? Ok...do the whole head work with springs, retainers etc...Since the cam is in place all ready....the tune is a must...
I dont know or havent read the reviews of the regrind cams or results from anybody...You guys have any links? How can i get a hold of this Andy dude?
I dont know or havent read the reviews of the regrind cams or results from anybody...You guys have any links? How can i get a hold of this Andy dude?
11-18-2011, 09:32 AM
#155
Senior Moderator
Lots of posts on Acurazine forums have 
attached.
In the case of all these kill claims matched against the reality of what is listed with time slips in the Acura section of Drag Times, I believe its reasonable to say, without time slips/dyno runs being posted its just so much internet chatter.
Considering how much money can be spent on a TL to get 10/15hp the $50/75 cost of a series of dyno runs or day at the track is just chump change. If guys are getting 338HP (15% friction loss) out of stock 286HP type S without supercharging then those guys posting time slips getting 320/325HP with supercharged TL’s must be totally clueless. 1.5 horsepower per cubic inch on a N/A street motor is a pretty big deal when cars like the 470hp Charger SRT8 only gets 1.2 & the 507hp E63 AMG gets 1.3.
I guess it can be done & major props to anyone who can do it but at that level a claim really needs to be backed up with hard data to be considered valid.
attached.In the case of all these kill claims matched against the reality of what is listed with time slips in the Acura section of Drag Times, I believe its reasonable to say, without time slips/dyno runs being posted its just so much internet chatter.
Considering how much money can be spent on a TL to get 10/15hp the $50/75 cost of a series of dyno runs or day at the track is just chump change. If guys are getting 338HP (15% friction loss) out of stock 286HP type S without supercharging then those guys posting time slips getting 320/325HP with supercharged TL’s must be totally clueless. 1.5 horsepower per cubic inch on a N/A street motor is a pretty big deal when cars like the 470hp Charger SRT8 only gets 1.2 & the 507hp E63 AMG gets 1.3.
I guess it can be done & major props to anyone who can do it but at that level a claim really needs to be backed up with hard data to be considered valid.
see dyno and slips http://public.fotki.com/typeR/typer/
see dragtimes link http://www.dragtimes.com/Acura-CL-Timeslip-7259.html
now i realize this is an '01 cl type S but if i did it in an auto at similar weight how many years ago ? why cant he have ?
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11-18-2011, 09:49 AM
#156
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I could have run 12+ with my car because cars with similar mods (whp) do, but I have not actually done it therefore I have no time slip just dyno runs to prove the whp. No time slip no et/mph claim, no dyno sheet no whp claim.
For the amount of money needed to be spent on a TL to get a solid level of performance the cost of a dyno run or night at the track is chump change
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-18-2011 at 09:53 AM.
11-18-2011, 11:06 AM
#157
All motor
see sig !
see dyno and slips http://public.fotki.com/typeR/typer/
see dragtimes link http://www.dragtimes.com/Acura-CL-Timeslip-7259.html
now i realize this is an '01 cl type S but if i did it in an auto at similar weight how many years ago ? why cant he have ?
see dyno and slips http://public.fotki.com/typeR/typer/
see dragtimes link http://www.dragtimes.com/Acura-CL-Timeslip-7259.html
now i realize this is an '01 cl type S but if i did it in an auto at similar weight how many years ago ? why cant he have ?
11-18-2011, 11:19 AM
#158
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