tcm

JD Power gave the '04 TL an initial quality rating of 2 out of 5 (i.e. bad), after several years of 5 out of 5. Does anyone know when the J.D. Power ratings for '05 will be released? '04 was released around 5/1/04, so I'm guessing '05 will be in about two months. I was planning to wait till then to see what they say but the April Consumer Reports was just released and supposedly it chose the '05 TL as a Top Pick. Does anyone have an opinion on whether the '04 J.D. Power rating was justified, and whether it's likely to be back to 5 out of 5 this year? Thanks for your comments...

mickey3c

I find magazine ratings have to be taken with a grain of salt at times. They are a good source of information but is usually based on the opinion of a select few... The car could be recommended for the performance and mileage ratings, but may fall short in the quality department. From the sound of it there have been many problems with the TL as of late which may or may not be reported in the magazine.

One of my favorite cars was rated worse than average, but I never had an issue with it...

aha

I have taken my car to the dealer 3 times already to get problems fixed. Th last one was the temp guage blanking out. They had to replace the defective NAVI for that. Had the car for barely 3 months. I hope JD Powers still gives them a 2 out of 5.

ramzfan

My 04 auto with NAVI is the most trouble free car I have ever owned. It rivals my wifes old CRV which never had one single problem the entire 4 years she owned it.
I think this is one where JD Power missed the boat. This car gets rave reviews everywhere, and the only thing I have seen it dinged on is the front wheel drive. JD Power gave the TL and the G35 a 3 for Style and 2 for mechanical. I think they are way off the mark here since these two cars are pretty much the industry front runners in their class.

F23A4

I lean towards JD Power when it comes to a new car purchase and CR when it comes to buying a used car. Both have their stregnths and weaknesses though.

Regarding new cars, JD Power leans towards customer satisfaction surveys whereas the staff at Consumer Reports formulates an evaluation of the cars they purchase and test, in addition to incorporating reader surveys.

As Mickey states, take the final ratings of each with a grain of salt.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

So its okay when they "recommend" the TL, but when they state something bad, they made it up

Its a great magazine. Not just to buy cars but also things from cell phones to lawnmowers.

Consumer Reports' annual reliability survey predicts continued troubles for European automakers with 2005 vehicles. Not only didn't European automakers have even one model among the top vehicles, they dominated the list of vehicles with the worst predicted reliability ratings.

Ten of the eleven sedans with Consumer Reports' lowest predicted reliability rating were European, including such high-priced models as the Mercedes-Benz S-Class, E-Class, and six-cylinder version of the C-Class; the Jaguar S-Type and X-Type; and the BMW 7 Series and 5 Series. Most of Volkswagen's models, including the Golf, Jetta, and New Beetle, also rated far below average for reliability. The four-cylinder version of the Passat has been troublesome in the past, but VW seems to have gotten the bugs out of that version. Only the all-wheel-drive version of the Passat received the lowest rating in CR's survey.

A full half of the sedans and small cars that earned Consumer Reports' highest reliability rating are made by Toyota, including the Lexus and Scion brands. Top models were the Lexus IS300, Toyota Prius, the previous-generation Acura RL, Scion xB, and Toyota Corolla.

The only domestic cars to earn the highest reliability rating are the Buick Regal (discontinued for 2005) and the Pontiac Grand Prix (non-supercharged). For the first time, Hyundai earned a spot on CR's list of most reliable cars with its Sonata.

Consumer Reports' New Car Preview 2005, on sale now, includes a first look at CR's latest reliability findings. The publication, which costs $5.99 in the U.S. and $6.99 in Canada, is part of the respected Consumer Reports' Cars series of special automotive publications. More detailed results and analysis will be presented in Consumer Reports Annual Auto issue in April 2005.

CR's Largest Reliability Survey Ever

Consumer Reports had the largest response to its latest annual auto reliability survey ever, allowing the nonprofit organization to compile reliability portraits on more than 810,000 vehicles, up from 675,000 vehicles in 2003 and 480,000 in 2002. This is the second year in a row that Consumer Reports surveyed subscribers to both its magazine and its web site, www.ConsumerReports.org, a total of more than 5 million consumers throughout the U.S. The survey was conducted in the spring of 2004 and covered 1997 to 2004 models. To calculate predicted reliability ratings on currently-available models, CR averages the overall reliability scores for the most recent three years, provided that the vehicle remained substantially unchanged in that period and also didn't change for 2005. If a vehicle was new or redesigned in the past couple of years, CR may use only one or two years' data, if that's all that's available.

Consumer Reports' annual reliability survey is used in determining which makes and models are recommended to consumers by CR. Consumer Reports recommends only models that have performed well in tests conducted at its Auto Test Center in Connecticut and that have shown average or better reliability in its annual survey. Vehicles that perform poorly in government or insurance industry crash tests and rollover tests will also not be recommended. Occasionally, Consumer Reports may recommend a new or redesigned model that's too new to have compiled a reliability record if it scores well in CR's tests and if previous generations had consistently outstanding reliability.

As in past auto surveys done by Consumer Reports, the most reliable vehicles were built by Japanese manufacturers. Among the 32 models with the highest reliability rating in the new (2004) survey, 29 carry Japanese nameplates, with Toyota (16) and Honda (7) claiming the most. Among the 38 models with the lowest rating, 20 are European. The survey also shows that gas/electric hybrid vehicles appear to be holding up well thus far; the Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid were among the most reliable cars.

Some new and redesigned models had teething problems. For example, the redesigned Acura TL, typically a reliability standout, only scored average because of problems with body integrity and power accessories. Likewise, both the new Cadillac SRX and the redesigned Chevrolet Malibu and Saab 9-3 scored below average.

Asian models monopolized the top ratings in the SUV segment, with the lowest ratings going to a mix of European and U.S. models. The most reliable SUVs are the Toyota Land Cruiser, Toyota Highlander, Mitsubishi Endeavor, and Toyota RAV4. One third of the SUVs with the lowest ratings are large models, including the Lincoln Navigator, Nissan Armada, Ford Excursion, Ford Expedition, and Hummer H2. Among the new or redesigned SUVs, the redesigned Lexus RX330 was above average, but the new Buick Rainier, Nissan Armada, Volkswagen Touareg, and Porsche Cayenne were all below average. There were no European SUVs in Consumer Reports' survey that rated average or above.

No minivans earned the highest predicted reliability rating, but four -- the Nissan Quest, Chevrolet Astro, GMC Safari, and Mazda MPV -- were among the least reliable. The Ford Freestar and Mercury Monterey twins had average reliability in their debut year. Chrysler and Dodge minivans have average predicted reliability ratings following two years of sub par ratings.

The only pickup to earn the top rating is the Toyota Tundra. The new Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon both scored above average -- a rarity for first-year GM products. The country's best-selling vehicle, the redesigned Ford F-150 pickup, also suffered from first-year reliability problems; the previous F-150 had long been Ford's most reliable product.

The New Car Preview 2005 ($5.99 U.S./$6.99 Canada) is available everywhere magazines are sold through January 24, 2005. It includes reviews and information on 220 models; an exclusive list of CR-recommended vehicles; a look at what's new for 2005; and the Consumer Reports' Safety Assessment, which compares crash protection, accident-avoidance capabilities, and overall safety for 101 vehicles. Another story looks at the pros and cons of leasing.

Consumer Reports is one of the most trusted sources for information and advice on consumer products and services. CR has the most comprehensive auto-test program of any American magazine or web site; CR's auto experts have decades of experience in driving, testing, and reporting on cars.

MR1

Hey Les

When you get a minute, tell us about Consumer Reports and share a little of the information, would you

You have to take statistical information for what it is. CU does use a larger sample size than most. We must realize that any individual unit or even a small group of units may experience large deviations from the norm. Or, you can have problems with an individual car that do not show up in the ratings.

As a group, Honda/Acura competes very well with other groups of cars currently in mass production acording to Consumer Reports and lots of us.

s54

Sorry guys - I have to agree with JDP. This is the poorest excuse for a "quality" auto I have ever owned. Congrats to those who have had no problems. Love the car - hate the execution. It is pathetic to hear the symphony of rattles, buzzes and pops every time I get in the car.

Acura/Honda have lost a customer forever.

S

Twenties

Next time don't buy a car the first year its redesigned.

Tracer

Or be smart and get a RL.. not a rattle, pop and buzz in sight.. and with 8500 miles on mine now, not one single problem.

Compare that to my old 99 TL and you have a difference that night and day couldn't even BEGIN to imagine

Tracer

wakattack

JD Powers, can kiss it. 2004 Buick Regal gets 5 stars..

You all should go buy Buicks.

The magazines have recommended some great cars in the
past and some real stinkers. I don't care at all what
Consumer Reports says. They have been proven to be
biased over and over. JD Powers, I am neutral on,
if they call me they will get all fives. I wish the rest of you
poor sobs with the Crappy TL's owned a quality product
like the one I drive.

Been said on here a million times. It's always the more vocal
minority that raises the stink. Justifiably but, every car has
the same small group of people which either owns a Lemon, or
can't be happy with the car no matter what.

Oswald Vater

I received a survey from JDP not long after I purchased my car. My 04 has been great since I have put some miles on it but early on I was dealing with the tire vibration and various interior rattles we all know about and I downgraded it based on these issues. If JDP used such surveys in their evaluation, it's on wonder the TL got such a poor rating. BTW, they paid me a dollar for my time.

KJSmitty

As I have said before, the first/two years of any new model places much of the R&D "research and development" on the consumer. The auto manufacturers just don't have the time, money, and resources - well they do, they just don't want to use them to figure out all of the minor issues a car may have. Their focus is mainly on sufficient initial quality and near perfect safety. Quality won't get them in trouble, safety issues will....
Overall, I feel the JD write-up is right on and I'm glad they called it as they saw it.... I bet if we could all see the "numbers" regarding warranty complaints, those reflecting tires, vibrations, rattles, headliners, and probably even paint issues would be just plain staggering..... If I was King at Acura I would have fired my quality control as well as many other "evaluating" positions working on the TL immediately.
Like "s54" stated, it's a great car etc. but the "execution" was done poorly to say the least. A huge black eye for Acura/Honda quality standards...

Now, are my responses a slam on Acura? No, just fact - they could have done better. I ordered my 04 in Nov of 03 and took possession just prior to Xmas 03. I love the car. Sure it has had it's fair share of rattles and tire issues but thats about it.... It's a great car. Lets just all face the fact that all of these "minor" complaints for 04/05's aren't doing it a darn bit of good in the PR department....
Now, if Acura is listening, the 06 should be near flawless regarding "current" complaints. If not, what I would call year to year "repeat write-ups" will really look bad for Acura of "Ohio"........

Colin

IMO, Customer Satisfaction has everything do with Customer Expectations. For example , let's say Customer B buys a Buick and has 20 problems per car. He says to himself, heck, that's not so bad, I thought all Ameiican cars were junk. When JD calls, he says he's satisfied with the purchase.

Customer A has an Acura with 3-4 problems. His expctations were so high that he says that he's dissatisfied with the car because it's not perfect. He forgets that the car is filled with new technology, superior power, performance, fuel economy, and emisions control. He forgets that it's the one of the safest cars on the roads.

The question is: Who has the better car and who is more satisfied with the purchase?

JerryG

CR did rate the TL as a "Top Pick", but you have to look at the CR rating breakdown:

Satisfaction: A
Reliability: C
Depreciation: B

According to CR, the TL had a lower reliability rating than any other Acura model. So, it is listed in the CR recommended category for "owner satisfaction", not the "if reliability is important" category.

Which probably had something to do with the overall CR Reliability by Make where Acura ranked slightly lower than Honda for 2005.

That seems surprising - the premium/marquis brand ranking lower than the mainstream brand! Acura can't be happy with that. Imagine Lexus being ranked lower than Toyota. That coupled with the JD Power results seems to indicate that the TL could be a QA trouble spot?

.

Colin

This was sort of the reasoning behind my post. Don't you think that Accords and Camrys suffer the same incidental problems? Of course they do! It's just that the typical Accord buyer is so busy shuffling kids around, commuting, and just living out thier lives, that they can't/won't be bothered with a small squeak or rattle.

TLs appeal to more discriminating owner/enthusisasts and these buyers will be more critical. They spend time in enthusiast web boards like this one! As for the TL being lower than other Acuras, it is our highest volume car, and our newest, with more cars in service, I'd expect a few more issues.

ericajackhannahjamie?

my rating

Satisfaction: A
Reliability: A
Depreciation: A
Car interior: A
Car exterior: A
Car performance: A

my 2004 TL is one of the most reliable, trouble-free car I've ever owned. Perhaps I have been blessed.. I don't feel any vibration while driving, brakes squeaking while braking, nor any rattling whatsoever. Have you ever heard of the perfect car? I just may own one

I love 6MT!
Acura Shift > Nissan Shift (haha)

TLNJ

So far so good here as well...no problems whatsoever. I absoultely love this car. It's the perfectly balanced car. Luxurious and classy looking, but step on the gas and shift through the gears it becomes a monster.

In terms of the G35 I think it's ugly as all hell . I've received so many compliments re: the looks of this car especially from the ladies

fasttl

The top pics are not based on reliability, they are based on performance on CR's tests, to be a candidate the vehicle must have at least average reliability which the TL has. It is not uncommon for first year cars not to do as well as their predecessors, especially in a car with so many doodas as the TL. Please note that the first year TL was as reliable as the last year of production BMW 330. Anyhow the new TL has been unsussual for honda in that has not had stellar reliability out of the starting gate, personally the only issue I expirienced was the forgetful seat memory which although minor did take a morning at the dealer. As far as I know most if not all the problems have been of this small though certainly annoying variety. I'm sure Honda is looking closely into the issue since its reliability reputation is indespensible to its survival, they cant forget that they are still a barracuda (not really a little fish anymore) in a tank of great white sharks, although given the indigestion the big guys are having (except for toyota which did not join the feeding frenzy of the 90's) after swallowing all the smaller or weak automakers in the planet.

JerryG

Probably true. However, I assume many owners that pay mid-30's for near luxury would be disatisfied to some degree with lots of squeaks & rattles and other quality issues. Following this logic, RL owners will be even more critical. When you pay more you expect more - that's a big point of the premium brands.

Colin

Ironically, it's reversed. As the prices go up, the amount of 'quirks" tolerated also goes up. Top line Jaguars are pathetic with regard to reliablilty, but the owners don't seem to care! They keep buying them. Lower end Jags (S-type) are more reliable than the big jags, but the owners complain more. ???? Who knows why? As an owner of a 30 something car, maybe its that this price point is just expensive enough to represent a lot of money (speaking for myself only here) with regard to our incomes. Maybe the guy who spends 80K on a car has others to drive while it's in the shop? Maybe the guy who spends 80K on the car is embarassed to admit his car has a lot of problems???

KJSmitty

Colin, I believe you answered your own question, and I agree. It's the fact that those that spend/can afford an $80K car etc. like your Jag example, aren't overly concerned with whether they got their moneys worth etc. They just buy the car because they like it, it's a status symbol, and they will get something else when tired of it..
Those of us that aren't as financially endowed buy the lower end Jags etc. or higher end Acura's like the TL. Having all of the minor issues rattles etc. is very disappointing and infuriating. We spent a large amount of money (for many of us) on "a car", and feel it should be better represented....

It's definitely a "perspective thing"

Cheers

Colin

There were two parts to my story. The second is that all (cheap and expensive) cars have some "quirks" that will exist. It doesn't matter how much it costs. Look at a VCR for example. The $500 Sony model won't have any better reliability than the $200 Goldstar one. It will have more features and probably better recording quality but the money paid has little to do with how long it lasts. You will however, be more upset with your $500 VCR when it breaks especially if its from a reputable brand like Sony. It's all in your point of view. I don't want to belittle the amount of money spent so please don't misunderstand.

I guess I just want people to be happy with the car, enjoy it for what it's worth, and bring it in for warranty repair if needed. Remember, there are people out there that spent a LOT more money on thier car (Europeans) and are having more problems.

bfogarty

Article in most recent Automobile Magazine confirms what I have known for years-German brands suck in reliability. It is a shame. Great sexy look, wonderful interiors, great handling----but in the shop most of the time. Automobile seems to think it is an occurence that started in the early 90's, but as someone familiar BMW's, Porsche's and Mercedes for years it is not new. Maybe the "elites" never admitted it before Lexus and such. I still would like to get a Mercedes, then I read articles like the one I saw today and think I am not ready to take it up the ass again.

iLL TL

Main Event baby I think my car came right after yours off the production line knock on wood after 5000K my baby is still trouble free... that way some of you guys make it seem it's like ,we have a time bomb waiting to explode with some kinda trouble.... not cool!

tsunamiginger

hmm...is this the temp gauge in the MID or the climate control display above the navi screen? Reason I ask is that we've been having misc electrical issues with our 05 tl (which has a service appointment next week). Ours stopped letting us have individual radio presets and climate control settings and have just noticed that the MID display isn't showing the outside temp any more either. Just shows ___. Ours is also the one where the lighted buttons around the navi are dimmer than the others.

sufall96

I've only had a few minor rattles that were fixed. They deserve at least a 4 out of 5. You may have a lemon. Every brand has them.

mickey3c

HA that is what acura wants you to believe that every brand has them.. Or you get the do you realize how complex these cars are... BS....

It got what it got... maybe 3 out of 5 is more like it.. you are too forgiving at 34k the car should not rattle and we all want to feel that we made the best purchase for the money.

the engine sells the car and maybe some upgraded styling.. reliability is where the brand is not there so they deserve a 2....

sufall96

Like I said before tell to a friend of mine that has a G35 with electrical to transmission problems. He told me that sometimes his transmission would just lock up in park mode and sometimes he can't move his car for 10 to 15 minutes. What if it was an emergecy. So he would bring it to Infiniti and they would put it on the machine and they would tell him that they can not find something wrong. That scared me from the G35 but I don't look at the brand in this way, because has a I30 and we haven't had any problems. Another friend of mind spent $6,000 on a new engine on an IS300 TELL THIS TO HIM. Not a 3 year old LEXUS. NO NOT LEXUS! NOT LEXUS! Close your mind if you choose to, but Acura is known for quality and every brand has it's mistakes, just search the web and see. Look at some other forums.

Colin

Indeed, this is my point. How many registered posters do we have here? Probably less than 50% report problems that cannot be resolved. Acura sold over 70,000 TLs last year. This leads me to two thoughts: 1) Most of the cars experience similar issues, BUT they don't bother all (or most) drivers. 2) Whether you are bothered or not, depends on what you expected from the car/brand. This is subjective

jyup1982

Really disappointed at my 2005 TL..
I hear rattle from dashboard and 'clicking' sound from pedal.
Even Hyundai scored better than Honda/Acura in initial quality survey.
I should have researched more on quality issues in TL.

mickey3c

This might be so.. but the G has no where near the issues of the TL... The people here who mention the problem they have had with the TL still say they love the car, so you cannot say these people are the one that come on and bitch.

I can tell you aout some tranny issues with acura... just read the 2g section... I have not seen so many issues since the 81 2.8 front drive GM product and that was horrible...

F23A4

I smell a TL vs Maxima run.

sufall96

You are preaching to the chior. I bought a 2G model brand new in 02 as an 03 model. I traded from a 03 TL Type S to a 04 TL. My whole transmission was changed. That is a bomber but another TL was given to ma as a loaner and the whole process did not inconvience me. You have to look at it this way. If the dealer keeps your car for say rattles. And it takes 3 days. Vs. If your car has tranny problems and it takes 3 days and you get a loaner for each one the experience was basically the same. After the tranny was changed I kept the car about a year before trading to the 04. But didn't have any problems with it after they changed the tranny. All I'm saying is Acura isn't perfect but tell me a brand that is. Look at it like life. Pick your battles. Somethings will bother people more than others. If the problems that Acura has is that bad then don't buy one. Deal with Infiniti or BMW problems. Let's see how that repair bill will look.

neuronbob

I was one of those who reported on the TL to Consumer Reports. I'm now at a bit over 27k miles in my early-build '04, without significant problems. Had some minor issues I've posted about before. Still very happy with the car overall even though the newness wore off LONG ago.

At the end of the day, the ratings don't matter, it's how you feel about driving the car. End of story.

Enjoy your cars and push yourselves away from the keyboard more.

Legend2TL

Good wisdom as Jimi Hendrix said "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens"

mickey3c

You bailed out on the model you had... one year is all you kept it after the tranny switch out... So you picked your battle and dumped the car.... bailing on a model that has known tranny issues and worth less in trade to me is an inconvenience on a wallet... !!!!!!

Acura had to stand by their crap or get their asses sued off... and I did not buy one this time I have a 3G and a G and you can bet which one has seen the dealer for the problems... I am not looking for perfect, I am looking for someting that does not have a battle associated with it...

Buy a german product and understand after 50K miles you will have expensive repair bills. My acura has seen the shop more times than it should. I give a new car abut two problems that is it... Usually you have questions on how it functions and it is a limitation of the brand and technology. I can live with that, but not hearing what is now considered "NORMAL"...

I said oh you mean a "NORMAL" problem you forgot that other word. The service writer gave me a look...

Got a 4runner as well and except for one noise which was fixed and the ac compressor that went in the first year, it has been fine. And that was the best in its class... That I do not mind. I is a one time switch out and not a major component in the car that costs a few grand...

F23A4

....funny how Jimi borrowed some angles from the Bible while rejected it simultaneously.


for the