02 TLS vs Trans Am WS6
09-04-2008, 04:37 PM
#1
Lead Footed
Thread Starter
02 TLS vs Trans Am WS6
Okay, so why even run a car with more power stock than I have modded? Well, the guy was messing with anything that looked fast and ignored me. 
I was watching him mess with a Camaro first, then a S2000 . . . neither paid him any attention. Since they both turned right, and we were on a 3 lane road . . . I decided I wanted to see how bad he can beat me . . . assuming he could drive. Well, the first time I got a bit of a jump from about 45MPH and got 1 length on him, but he closed the gap by 80MPH, and we stayed side by side until 100MPH and he began to pull away. The second time we went from 50MPH and he pulled me by 3 lengths . . and I messed up hitting the rev limiter
The 3rd time we went from a light to a 20MPH roll and I stayed with him to about 50MPH and he began to pull away and had me by about 3 lengths at 100MPH.
I talked to him at the next light and he had a few mods . . . but would say . . the car rags have them running 13.5 at 107MPH or so stock, so not sure what he was really running. He may also have had a line lock because before the light changed, he light up his tires and didn't move and then when the light changed he laid rubber through the intersection. BTW, it was a manual too.
Oh well, it was fun and he was surprised I stayed as close as I did.
Ruf
I was watching him mess with a Camaro first, then a S2000 . . . neither paid him any attention. Since they both turned right, and we were on a 3 lane road . . . I decided I wanted to see how bad he can beat me . . . assuming he could drive. Well, the first time I got a bit of a jump from about 45MPH and got 1 length on him, but he closed the gap by 80MPH, and we stayed side by side until 100MPH and he began to pull away. The second time we went from 50MPH and he pulled me by 3 lengths . . and I messed up hitting the rev limiter
The 3rd time we went from a light to a 20MPH roll and I stayed with him to about 50MPH and he began to pull away and had me by about 3 lengths at 100MPH.I talked to him at the next light and he had a few mods . . . but would say . . the car rags have them running 13.5 at 107MPH or so stock, so not sure what he was really running. He may also have had a line lock because before the light changed, he light up his tires and didn't move and then when the light changed he laid rubber through the intersection. BTW, it was a manual too.
Oh well, it was fun and he was surprised I stayed as close as I did.
Ruf
09-05-2008, 01:26 PM
#3
Team Owner
Very nice keeping up with the mighty LS1! At my local track I've seen them trap anywhere from 100-105mph bone stock with ETs anywhere from 14.5 to 13.4.
09-06-2008, 01:56 PM
#4
Okay, so why even run a car with more power stock than I have modded? Well, the guy was messing with anything that looked fast and ignored me.
I was watching him mess with a Camaro first, then a S2000 . . . neither paid him any attention. Since they both turned right, and we were on a 3 lane road . . . I decided I wanted to see how bad he can beat me . . . assuming he could drive. Well, the first time I got a bit of a jump from about 45MPH and got 1 length on him, but he closed the gap by 80MPH, and we stayed side by side until 100MPH and he began to pull away. The second time we went from 50MPH and he pulled me by 3 lengths . . and I messed up hitting the rev limiter The 3rd time we went from a light to a 20MPH roll and I stayed with him to about 50MPH and he began to pull away and had me by about 3 lengths at 100MPH.
I talked to him at the next light and he had a few mods . . . but would say . . the car rags have them running 13.5 at 107MPH or so stock, so not sure what he was really running. He may also have had a line lock because before the light changed, he light up his tires and didn't move and then when the light changed he laid rubber through the intersection. BTW, it was a manual too.
Oh well, it was fun and he was surprised I stayed as close as I did.
Ruf
I was watching him mess with a Camaro first, then a S2000 . . . neither paid him any attention. Since they both turned right, and we were on a 3 lane road . . . I decided I wanted to see how bad he can beat me . . . assuming he could drive. Well, the first time I got a bit of a jump from about 45MPH and got 1 length on him, but he closed the gap by 80MPH, and we stayed side by side until 100MPH and he began to pull away. The second time we went from 50MPH and he pulled me by 3 lengths . . and I messed up hitting the rev limiter
The 3rd time we went from a light to a 20MPH roll and I stayed with him to about 50MPH and he began to pull away and had me by about 3 lengths at 100MPH.I talked to him at the next light and he had a few mods . . . but would say . . the car rags have them running 13.5 at 107MPH or so stock, so not sure what he was really running. He may also have had a line lock because before the light changed, he light up his tires and didn't move and then when the light changed he laid rubber through the intersection. BTW, it was a manual too.
Oh well, it was fun and he was surprised I stayed as close as I did.
Ruf
09-08-2008, 01:12 PM
#6
Lead Footed
Thread Starter
The last time at the track I was wanting to get lined up to a Mustang GT so I could whip up on him . . . he was running 15.2s . . .
Ruf
Last edited by RUF87; 09-08-2008 at 01:12 PM. Reason: sig
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09-11-2008, 10:32 PM
#8
Team Owner
You're right, 9 times out of 10 the WS6 should win. If you look at the high end of trap speeds for the TL and the low end for the WS6, they're within a couple mph of each other. Factor in the bad driver mod or car not running right, or too slow to downshift but not in your powerband, or one car gets the jump and you have to make up his mph plus pull a few mph, you can see how it's possible.
09-12-2008, 10:57 PM
#9
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
If it was a '98-'00 T/A it was putting more like 260-275 to the wheels. For '01-'02 they removed the EGR, changed the cam and used the LS-6 intake. Some of these LS-1's could break 300 stock, but just barely.
09-13-2008, 06:43 AM
#11
Senior Moderator
09-13-2008, 12:02 PM
#12
Lead Footed
Thread Starter
BTW . . . I'm a very experienced racer who has been racing since 1977 . . . I've learned a lot of things and the most important one is as it is with any competition or sport . . . you need to bring your 'A' game or you'll lose.
Ruf
Last edited by RUF87; 09-13-2008 at 12:04 PM. Reason: sig
09-13-2008, 12:50 PM
#13
Lead Footed
Thread Starter
You're right, 9 times out of 10 the WS6 should win. If you look at the high end of trap speeds for the TL and the low end for the WS6, they're within a couple mph of each other. Factor in the bad driver mod or car not running right, or too slow to downshift but not in your powerband, or one car gets the jump and you have to make up his mph plus pull a few mph, you can see how it's possible.
One of these that is most difficult for many people to understand is where each car is in their respective powerband. Way too many people think you just take each car's dyno results and superimpose them and voila . . . WS6 kicks the TLS' butt. But in a street race when it involves running from a punch vs a standing start . . . this factor can be a big factor. It's complicated to explain via texting, but basically it comes down to this.
Each car has its own unique powerband throughout a run. Now say for car A it has a higher peak HP and Torque, while car B has less. Each car will have what I call it's sweet spots, where it makes its best power. And more often than not, car A's sweet spot will be different from car B's. So if car B is in it's sweet spot and catches car A outside of its, car B will actually run with or even pull on car A.
The outcome becomes even less clear when you start factoring in how long a car is in its sweet spot. Things that will effect that are the RPM range and or gearing. This one is very hard for most folks to fully comprehend, and an area of advantage for our cars. Most domestic V8s hit redline around 5,600 to 6,000rpm. Yes, there are some that can go higher, but that not the point here. Meanwhile Honda engines are built to turn higher RPMs (6,900+). In my case, 80% of my powerband starts at 4,800rpm. meaning I'm at 80% of my max power. I can't say what the WS6's is, but the point here is that there's a lot more to figuring out which car is fast than simply looking at RAW HP figures.
As I mentioned experience, I also built my own engines and set up my own tranny and rear ends. I learned through that experience that while my engine remained a constant, messing with the latter 2 produced very different results at the track and on the street. And in regard to the being able to turn more RPMs point, I learned about that as well. The engine I chose back then was a Chevy 327 . . . and what was unique about it was that this was an earlier version of the 327 that came with a small journal crank. This design allowed me to build and engine that would turn lots of RPM, and do so very quickly. Just for the record, this engine would redline at 8,000 RPM and as a daily driver I would run it up to 7,600rpm daily.
Understanding all this allowed me to put together the best combination, and that just because someone's dyno results said their car had more HP, I rarely lost to one of them because of the finer details.
BTW, from I hate cars' sig, I see that he has a modifed GN . .
. . I've always loved that car. Almost bought one once, and my dad ended up getting the T Type which was basically a GN in a plain vanilla wrapper.Anyway . . . there's even more details to all this, so the point is . . . you can't just compare HP . . and don't be so quick to discredit someone staying with or even beating a car that's technically faster or that has more HP. Once last comment . . . . one of the first races I lost in my Malibu SS was to a 1966 VW bug . . . he was a friend of mine and built some of the nastiest bugs in the area. He had about 170HP, but it was his gearing and light weight that was my doom . . . he jumped out in front of me so fast that I paniced, applied too much power upfront and couldn't catch him before he crossed the finish line . . .
but that's part of the learning process.Hope this helps some in understanding there are many variables, and that means the outcome is never certain, and that's what makes it some exciting and fun.
Ruf
09-13-2008, 01:52 PM
#14
Team Owner
Alright . . . here's a guy that understands the finer less known factors of racing.
One of these that is most difficult for many people to understand is where each car is in their respective powerband. Way too many people think you just take each car's dyno results and superimpose them and voila . . . WS6 kicks the TLS' butt. But in a street race when it involves running from a punch vs a standing start . . . this factor can be a big factor. It's complicated to explain via texting, but basically it comes down to this.
Each car has its own unique powerband throughout a run. Now say for car A it has a higher peak HP and Torque, while car B has less. Each car will have what I call it's sweet spots, where it makes its best power. And more often than not, car A's sweet spot will be different from car B's. So if car B is in it's sweet spot and catches car A outside of its, car B will actually run with or even pull on car A.
The outcome becomes even less clear when you start factoring in how long a car is in its sweet spot. Things that will effect that are the RPM range and or gearing. This one is very hard for most folks to fully comprehend, and an area of advantage for our cars. Most domestic V8s hit redline around 5,600 to 6,000rpm. Yes, there are some that can go higher, but that not the point here. Meanwhile Honda engines are built to turn higher RPMs (6,900+). In my case, 80% of my powerband starts at 4,800rpm. meaning I'm at 80% of my max power. I can't say what the WS6's is, but the point here is that there's a lot more to figuring out which car is fast than simply looking at RAW HP figures.
As I mentioned experience, I also built my own engines and set up my own tranny and rear ends. I learned through that experience that while my engine remained a constant, messing with the latter 2 produced very different results at the track and on the street. And in regard to the being able to turn more RPMs point, I learned about that as well. The engine I chose back then was a Chevy 327 . . . and what was unique about it was that this was an earlier version of the 327 that came with a small journal crank. This design allowed me to build and engine that would turn lots of RPM, and do so very quickly. Just for the record, this engine would redline at 8,000 RPM and as a daily driver I would run it up to 7,600rpm daily.
Understanding all this allowed me to put together the best combination, and that just because someone's dyno results said their car had more HP, I rarely lost to one of them because of the finer details.
BTW, from I hate cars' sig, I see that he has a modifed GN . . . . I've always loved that car. Almost bought one once, and my dad ended up getting the T Type which was basically a GN in a plain vanilla wrapper.
Anyway . . . there's even more details to all this, so the point is . . . you can't just compare HP . . and don't be so quick to discredit someone staying with or even beating a car that's technically faster or that has more HP. Once last comment . . . . one of the first races I lost in my Malibu SS was to a 1966 VW bug . . . he was a friend of mine and built some of the nastiest bugs in the area. He had about 170HP, but it was his gearing and light weight that was my doom . . . he jumped out in front of me so fast that I paniced, applied too much power upfront and couldn't catch him before he crossed the finish line . . . but that's part of the learning process.
Hope this helps some in understanding there are many variables, and that means the outcome is never certain, and that's what makes it some exciting and fun.
Ruf
One of these that is most difficult for many people to understand is where each car is in their respective powerband. Way too many people think you just take each car's dyno results and superimpose them and voila . . . WS6 kicks the TLS' butt. But in a street race when it involves running from a punch vs a standing start . . . this factor can be a big factor. It's complicated to explain via texting, but basically it comes down to this.
Each car has its own unique powerband throughout a run. Now say for car A it has a higher peak HP and Torque, while car B has less. Each car will have what I call it's sweet spots, where it makes its best power. And more often than not, car A's sweet spot will be different from car B's. So if car B is in it's sweet spot and catches car A outside of its, car B will actually run with or even pull on car A.
The outcome becomes even less clear when you start factoring in how long a car is in its sweet spot. Things that will effect that are the RPM range and or gearing. This one is very hard for most folks to fully comprehend, and an area of advantage for our cars. Most domestic V8s hit redline around 5,600 to 6,000rpm. Yes, there are some that can go higher, but that not the point here. Meanwhile Honda engines are built to turn higher RPMs (6,900+). In my case, 80% of my powerband starts at 4,800rpm. meaning I'm at 80% of my max power. I can't say what the WS6's is, but the point here is that there's a lot more to figuring out which car is fast than simply looking at RAW HP figures.
As I mentioned experience, I also built my own engines and set up my own tranny and rear ends. I learned through that experience that while my engine remained a constant, messing with the latter 2 produced very different results at the track and on the street. And in regard to the being able to turn more RPMs point, I learned about that as well. The engine I chose back then was a Chevy 327 . . . and what was unique about it was that this was an earlier version of the 327 that came with a small journal crank. This design allowed me to build and engine that would turn lots of RPM, and do so very quickly. Just for the record, this engine would redline at 8,000 RPM and as a daily driver I would run it up to 7,600rpm daily.
Understanding all this allowed me to put together the best combination, and that just because someone's dyno results said their car had more HP, I rarely lost to one of them because of the finer details.
BTW, from I hate cars' sig, I see that he has a modifed GN . .
. . I've always loved that car. Almost bought one once, and my dad ended up getting the T Type which was basically a GN in a plain vanilla wrapper.Anyway . . . there's even more details to all this, so the point is . . . you can't just compare HP . . and don't be so quick to discredit someone staying with or even beating a car that's technically faster or that has more HP. Once last comment . . . . one of the first races I lost in my Malibu SS was to a 1966 VW bug . . . he was a friend of mine and built some of the nastiest bugs in the area. He had about 170HP, but it was his gearing and light weight that was my doom . . . he jumped out in front of me so fast that I paniced, applied too much power upfront and couldn't catch him before he crossed the finish line . . .
but that's part of the learning process.Hope this helps some in understanding there are many variables, and that means the outcome is never certain, and that's what makes it some exciting and fun.
Ruf
I've been playing around with turbo and torque convertor combos trying to get a larger powerband. Shiftpoints are only 5,500rpm but I've finally got something that makes max torque at 2,800rpm and max power at 5,400rpm. Having 600lbs of torque available so low in the rpm range is nice when people try to get the jump on you lol.
09-13-2008, 03:08 PM
#15
Turd Polisher
iTrader: (1)
Great post RUF87.
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