noobie

Anyone remember this car? Notes from Wiki: (I bolded some segments)

Honda Prelude

Third generation (1987–1991)

The third generation Prelude was released in 1987 in Japan and gained four wheel steering on some models. The third generation received body changes that updated the look. New engines available in the USDM models were: in the 1988-1990 2.0S, the B20A3 which is a SOHC 12-valve dual-sidedraft carburetor engine displacing 1958 cc that produced up to 104 hp (78 kW) and 111 lb·ft (150 N·m); in the 1988-1991 2.0Si, the B20A5 with DOHC and PGM-FI that increased power to 135 hp (101 kW) and 127 lb·ft (172 N·m), or a slightly-larger B21A1 in 1990 and 1991 Si models described below. The B20A6 was the Australian model: a 2.0 DOHC 16-valve PGM-FI engine, also 1958 cc, producing 142 hp (106 kW) and 127 lb·ft (172 N·m). In 1991, the Honda NSX replaced the Prelude as the "halo car" at Honda Verno dealerships in Japan.

The drag coefficient was at the very low rating of .34. This gave better fuel economy, lower wind noise, and a greater level of high-speed stability.
Another unique structural element of the third generation Prelude was the high-strength metal used in the six roof pillars.
In 1987, Road & Track published a test summary that shows the 1988 Honda Prelude 2.0Si 4WS outperforming every car of that year on the Slalom, including all Lamborghinis, Ferraris, and Porsches. It went through the slalom at 65.5 mph (105.4 km/h), an amazing result for the time. For reference, the 1988 Corvette took the same course at 64.9 mph (104.4 km/h).
The Prelude was Wheels magazine's Car of the Year for 1987.


Or how about this car (I actually owned one. It was a blast! 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, pretty fast for a 4 banger in 1989)

Mazda MX-6

The Mazda MX-6 was a front-wheel drive sporty coupé produced by Mazda between 1987 and 1997. It was called the Mazda Capella in Japan until 2002 before being renamed Mazda Atenza/Mazda6.

The MX-6 was mechanically identical to the Mazda 626 and subsequently the Ford Probe. These cars shared the GD (1988–1992) and GE (1993–1997) platforms. The MX-6 replaced the 626 Coupé, although it continued to share the same chassis. Mazda shared the GD and GE chassis with Ford for their own Probe. The MX-6, 626 and Ford Probe were made together in joint-venture plants either by AutoAlliance in Flat Rock, MI for the North American market, and by Mazda Japan for Asian and European Markets.

4WS (Four Wheel Steering)

Used from 1987 to 1998 on both MX-6 GT and GE models.
It was available on both the first generation and second generation MX-6 models, although the North American market only received it for the 1989 GT model. South African MX-6s never received 4WS.

According to Mazda, the system provided:
Superior cornering stability
Improved steering responsiveness and precision
High-speed straight line stability
Notable improvement in rapid lane-changing maneuvers
Smaller turning radius and tight-space maneuverability at low vehicle speed range

The system electronically controlled a rear rack that was behind the rear wheels. At low speeds (of up to 35 km/h), the rear wheels would move in the opposite direction to the front wheels, aiding parking and U-turns by lowering the turning circle. Above these speeds, the rear wheels would move in the same direction as the fronts, meaning control during high speed maneuvers such as lane changes or cornering was improved. Either way, the turning angle of the rear wheels was slight at just five degrees, a measurement Mazda determined to be optimally effective and natural to human sensitivity.

Note:
When the engine is turned off, the rear wheels would straighten up. They would change back to the angle of the front wheels when the engine is restarted. This is caused by the 4WS control unit powering down, and the fail safe system overriding the rear rack.
If the system ever faults, as a fail safe the rear wheels would lock straight to allow the vehicle normal 2WS functionality.

musty hustla

I always wanted a prelude SH

jhr3uva90

Wait, you mean RWD isn't the end all and be all?

weather

^^ LMAO Exactly! The problem is that Acura/Honda seem to stop wanting to be innovative and that is the problem the brand now seems to face. Its not coming out with anything exciting styling or driving anymore. In fact, it pulls back from its SH-AWD on certain model. What really hurts us as enthusiast is that sales are extremely good for vehicles in which they retrogressed (i.e the RDX). I own one and I love it.....for an SUV, its OK to have somewhat neutered driving/handling but I am afraid they are going that route with their sedans also.

Ken1997TL

The 4WS models were impressive. I had a '91 Prelude Si (vanilla front wheel steer) but I've driven the 4WS car. Wow, what a slalom machine.

And even better, it used a driveshaft to a rear steering rack.. so you got to feel what all the wheels were doing and directly drive it.

Later Preludes and Accords (all overseas) used an electronic connection.

noobie

Of course not...only for luxury sport sedans....

jhr3uva90

Tell that to Audi. For that matter, tell that to Lexus, whose ES outsells both their sports sedans (IS and GS) combined.

GoHawks

True that the ES is the volume car, but their flagship sedan is a big powerful RWD cruiser. That and the GS may not be their volume sellers, but they are the halo aspirational vehicles in their lineup.

Based on what we have read, the RLX may neither be aspirational nor a volume seller.

noobie

I don't consider the ES a luxury sport sedan. It's a dolled up Camry. I guess we just have different reference points on what we think a luxury sedan should have. But that's OK, that's why they make so many different cars.

jhr3uva90

Sorry, I might have expressed myself ineffectively. The ES is defintely NOT a sport sedan. But based on the fact that the ES outsells Lexus' sport sedans combines (and that includes the IS, which costs about the same as the ES), "regular" folks might be buying cars based on brand as opposed to sportiness. Also, bear in mind the TL was once a huge seller for Acura, and it was never really a sports sedan either.

Regarding flagships, Infiniti has not had a proper flagship in years, but they still get respect from the automotive press. Maybe Acura is hoping the upcoming NSX will generate similar respect?

GoHawks

For a sedan based on a FWD platform, I think the TL comes about as close as you can to being a sports sedan.

Putting aside the design issues and the interior materials of the current TL, it is actually highly regarded and above average performing car, especially in SH-AWD trim.

I would still think it qualifies as a sports sedan.

jhr3uva90

I totally agree. In fact, I think TL is the car ACURA wants to make versus the car HONDA wants Acura to have.

Colin

4WS has been around a while as noted. IMO, it's like tablet computers have been around for over a decade but it took the nexus of a mobile OS + touch interface + powerful low voltage processors + better batteries before they were ready for the current iPad success. It's possible that the new systems with electronic actuators, and sophisticated software and processors could make the difference this time around. I did find it interesting that those older system had a HUGE range of adjustment compared to the 1.8 degrees of the RLX.

hondamore

I nearly bought a 4WS Prelude back in the day - it's handling was truly impressive. But alas, at that point in my life, functionality ruled over driving fun and I bought an Accord Hatchback instead (absolutely wonderful little car). There was just no way to haul a bunch of hockey equipment in the trunk of a Prelude whereas the Accord hatchback could seemingly haul half a team's worth (grossly exaggerated for effect).
In my opinion, the PAWS RLX is a test bed for the new 4WS technology that will find its way into other models. It would be really interesting to drive a SH-SHAWD RLX with PAWS(if combining the two technologies was possible) - now that would be the slalom king.

jhr3uva90

SH-SH-AWD + P-AWS would be worth the money!

Rocket_man

I saw one reference that the rear wheels turned 5.3 degrees at front wheel lock.

neuronbob

4WS 1989 Prelude was my dream car back at the end of college. I'd still get one of those if I could find an unmolested one.

I don't think PAWS is chopped liver in the RL, but I do think it's going to be yet another unmarketed, difficult to explain, poorly understood (by the unwashed masses) tech from Acura that they won't know how to market. I mean, look at SH-AWD.

g37guy01

It's not that paws or shawd is not understood by the masses, the real question is why is such technology not standard on every luxury vehicle sold. Hids/LEDs, lane departure, etc can be found as an option on almost every luxury vehicle.

Why aren't luxury manufacturers jumping on this technology? That is the real question.

noobie

^^^^^ because it doesn't seem to matter to buyers or sell cars....

The 4WS Mazda was a cool little car that sold very few numbers with that feature.

Colin

Perhaps the mechanism is patented? Or, at the very least, under some form of exclusive agreement with Borg Warner (SH-AWD)?

Automotive patents are nothing new. Honda developed Integrated Motor Assist, and Toyota countered with Hybrid Synergy Drive. Which, as it turns out, they stole from Paice industries. However, the out-of-court settlement seems to have given Toyota upwards of 2000 patents on Hybrid Synergy Drive. IMO, This forced Honda to develop a new "big battery" system that will power the next hybrid Accord without infringing on Toyotas new found patents. I suspect this added several years to the development time.

g37guy01

I do not have any industry to say if the concept of torque vectoring is patentable. Clearly the method is patentable. Porsche had electric motors on the rear wheels in 1901, so the concept shouldn't be new.

If manufacturers thought it added value and consumers would buy cars with this technology, they would be tripping over themselves to offer it as an option.

GoHawks

I still think that the benefits of SH-AWD were lost on the demographic who buy these cars. It was cool technology, but Acura failed to market it, or maybe they just introduced it in the wrong car.

I think I asked this question once. Since SH-AWD is an option in the TL, does anyone know what is the percentage of TLs sold with SH-AWD?

KeithL

That would be interesting to know. When it first came out on the TL it was hard to get hear in GA. Now most dealers have a few on hand, but usually on 2-6 SH-AWD. I wonder if in the north more take the SH-AWD because of the weather.

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

I see almost as many sh-awd TL's are FWD in NY/NJ going on badges, exhaust tips and oem wheels.

JT4

- yeah, I've noticed this too.

Mr Marco

4-wheel steering?

Colin

Certainly not the concept of torque vectoring, but rather, the method with which it is accomplished. Perhaps the Acura/Borg Warner solution is the most efficient to do? Perhaps other manufacturers want to do this but the cost of developing a competing system is so exorbitantly high (especially when engineering around a patent) that it's not worth the investment?