victorber

Currently I have 31.7K and during our last trip I noticed some strange noises coming from the tires. Normally you can distinguish the location from where the noise coming from, but this started bothering me.
I had the tires checked today by my most trusted professional tire person.


The noise I have been hearing is tire whine and an occasional slap and is caused by the "Chopping" of the tire tread as the P-AWS "Toes-In" during braking. This chopping can been seen on the inside tread edge and it feels sharp to the touch. This should not to be mistaken for 'Cupping" which is much different.


As the tires wear with this Chopping, they will emit a series of different noises at different speeds, so don't think you need to replace them immediately, just let them go until you start feeling a vibration, or you miss the quietness when the tires were new.


The Michelin "Primacy" Tires which are OEM, on the Advanced Model (not sure about the other models) have been discontinued and replaced by the "Premier" which is to have more technology in their tread design and manufacture.

George Knighton

Wow.

0_0

miner

My RLX recently turned 1 yo nd has 15,xxx miles on it. 5000 of those are numerous trips between Dallas and The Woodlands. No tires isuues yet. Victorber, have you had your tires rotated often?

TampaRLX-SH

Thanks for that info. Effect on tires from PAWS is new data and will be nice to know if this is an expected characteristic of PAWS models.

That said, I personally would not be alarmed to start hearing tire noise and some vibration of any tire at 31K mikes. That is more than half the life of the tire and most any tire I have driven tends to lose the smooth / quiet attributes by that time. That has been my personal experience with Michelins in general including the OEMs on my RL which I replaced at 32K.

But in the end if PAWS contributes to that wear, it is good to know PAWS drivers should anticipate that threshold (assuming similar driving patterns).

Chan_Mike

When was the last time you performed a 4 wheel alignment on your RLX? Due to the characteristic of the P-AWS, you should align your vehicle every 12k miles.

victorber

I have my tires rotated every 7K but was not aware of the annual 4 wheel Alignment.
During the evaluation by the tire guy he stated there was not any signs of alignment problems, altho with all the Potholes from last winter, I should consider it.
Thanks...

Fabvsix

Gheez....I've got 10+ years on my original RL Tires and she drives straight as a whip, no pulling, No noise or funky wear.....who wants this wearing pattern?

George Knighton

Are you serious?

TampaRLX-SH

Is that an Acura maintenance requirement or your personal advice? If it was Acura's recommended service, would it not be alerted in the MID Service reminder?

Chan_Mike

Yes, it is certainly just my personal advise. I am an Acura Master technician for over 10 years and have experienced a few of tire related issues associated with wheel alignment on the RLXs.

With the P-AWS, the rear wheels can pivot as much as 1.8 degrees in the same or opposite direction as the front wheels.

These are the Maintenance Minder Codes:
A - Replace engine oil
B - Replace engine oil and oil filter
1 - Rotate tires
2 - Replace air cleaner element and dust and pollen filter
3 - Replace transmission fluid
4 - Replace spark plugs. Replace timing belt and inspect water pump
5 - Replace engine coolant
6 - Replace rear differential fluid (On AWD or SH-AWD Models)

These are also other inspections and such related to this codes as well.

TampaRLX-SH

^^^ Thank you for that. I certainly appreciate your insight. Early on in the launch of the PAWS RLX a few of us questioned the impact to tire wear and maintenance. Obviously you have first hand observation from more than a personal owner's experience, so I appreciate your contribution.

What are your thoughts as far as Acura's suggested maintenance? Do you anticipate Acura adding this to the MID service reminders for PAWS equipped vehicles? Are you aware of any recommendations to service techs by Acura to recommend this service interval?

There are some of us who do follow MID service recommendations. And of course there are those who don't. But if this is a characteristic of PAWS I would expect Acura to build it into the recommended service intervals per the MID codes.

George Knighton

I am not going to align a car every 12,000 miles. I'm just not.

My race car only needed aligning once/year and that was with bouncing a foot off the gaters all season long.

If Honda ever has to ask us to align a car every 12,000 miles then they are admitting that a vehicle has reached us that is inadequate to what it is being asked to do.

In my stupid old man's opinion.

hondamore

If I were an Acura Master Technician, I am certain that I would perform an alignment on my car every 12 months AND perform many other maintenance/service functions far more regularly than the Maintenance Minder suggests. The reason of course is that I would perform the service myself, have 100% trust in my work and pay a fraction of the cost that a member of the public would pay.

For the rest of us, non-technicians, service at the dealership sometimes comes with a backdrop of fear/hesitation. Yes, we all have had excellent service from the experienced and caring technician who exudes confidence and speaks as though his understanding of the mechanical world knows no bounds, but we also have experienced the apprehension as our beloved car is taken apart by an 18 year old who looks like he partied a bit too hard the night before and certainly doesn't look like he gives a damn whether he has a few left over parts when he's done putting the car back together. Coupled with the fact that "Snotty the mechanic" is being billed out at $150 per hour for his "service" as he stares into the distance with a blank look on his face trying to figure out what to do next and it is understandable that most of us follow the Maintenance Minder's suggestions for service and no more.

Just my two cents.

Edward'TLS

Is this the negative side of the 1st generation PAWS, that will cause suspension alignment to go out of wrack more frequently ?

apsuozzo

What have you heard about the suspension issues on the RLX?

victorber

Suspension Alignment Problems....I have not seen any or heard of any, although the only problem I have found with the P-AWS is this problem with Scrubbing while in the toe-in braking position. I suppose I should have thought this through.
I'm wondering if the drivers/owners of the Prelude with this technology ever had this problem????
Anyone know at what point in the breaking scenario do the rear wheels start their movement???
Does the toe-in start when in heavy breaking or all breaking??, Is this a progressive thing?


Inquiring minds want to know......

George Knighton

Was the word scrubbing being used by an Acura employee?

I'm asking because although car reviewers have referred to going toe-in to "scrub off speed" [sic], it's not really true.

The car goes toe in only to promote stability.

If you've ever had a front bias car in a race, you know that when you go into threshold braking you have to think very hard about not moving the steering wheel because the weight shift has increased your front tire patches so much that if you even breathe wrong the car's going to go off in a new direction.

This has always presented Honda racers with alignment challenges.

You want to be zero toe in the rear or even slightly toe out in order to get the car to turn faster.

But if you do that you can have very bad stability problems in threshold braking, and it makes you very nervous when you're going into full braking when you know an opposition's car is almost at your rear wheel already. Makes for very tense situations.

So the answer is to have P-AWS go slightly toe-in under heavy braking, but it's not going to be enough to "scrub."

It's only going to be enough to promote stability and make it harder for the car to turn inadvertently.

That's always been the idea, so I am very curious if a Honda America employee or dealer representative used a phrase like, "scrub off speed." If they did, then some re-education is in order. There's only a few thousand RLX's around, but if they're talking like that and there are scores of thousands of TLX P-AWS owners suddenly worrying about this, then there is a problem.

FredS

I have 74,000 miles on my 2010 RL and for the first time had an alignment. Drivers side front was wearing on the outside and that was the only wheel that needed it. I had just rotated the worn tire to the back before the alignment so I know they did a trustworthy job.

victorber

UPDATE: 34.7K Miles
Here is an update from a meeting I had with my dealership, ref the same topic:
During my meeting they stated the problem was called "Chopping" and it only occurs on the rear wheels during breaking. Acura is currently aware of the problem and I requested the District Rep to pass on to mother Acura what the problem is and that with a through inspection the vehicle still has 7/10ths thread and no signs of misalignment of the front or rear wheels. The dealership also stated that Acura recommends a 6mo Alignment as routine. But without a reason to accomplish this I felt that this was just throwing money away. Dealership agreed and said they were just passing on the info.
Then came the "bomb", Acura is recommending switch of tires to 19's Continentals or 18's to Bridgestone's as they are not happy with the Michelins especially on the MDX's.


I requested the District Rep provide owners manual requirement that would state the car owners to change-out their tires at their expense at less than 1/2 life.
I stated that I felt Acura should pickup the expense and not bear it upon the owner...
Will see where that goes!!!

TampaRLX-SH

^^^

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. If PAWS is prone to premature tire wear this could blow up in Acura's face as the TLX will introduce many more examples on the road. The RLX is very low volume and may not get much attention.

Concerning the recommendation to change tire brand, are Michelins on the PAWS TLX? If not, that may indeed support Acura's claim that Michelins are not performing (wearing) as well on PAWS vehicles.

Honda and Acura have often favored OEM Michelins as they typically support better EPA ratings for the model.

George Knighton

Interestingly, they are not.

Also interestingly, some reviewers are not happy with the Continentals.

I think they're on the wrong tack with how they are talking about this issue.

I used Toyo RA-1 on my track cars (one is a race car) and they have some fairly radical alignments and they do *not* wear in the way the poster describes.

If this is typical of P-AWS wear, then there is something going on other than the mild toe angle change that comes with P-AWS rear steering.

It doesn't make sense, what the representative told the poster.

If I didn't know better, I'd suggest that somebody ½ way up the chain just up and fabricated an answer without going up to engineering.

I can't wait for Hargett to see this. He'll probably pass out, knowing how many TLX P-AWS are already on the road, and building by the hundreds daily.

George Knighton

Is it just the one poster with this problem, or are others of us beginning to hear tyre noise and see chopping?

George Knighton

If he knew what he was talking about, then we can expect a class action right around the corner.

:-(

You said you had 35,000 miles now, and it's typical of Michelins in that price range to go 65,000 miles without having to worry about anything, alignments or not.

miner

Nope - Bridgestone RE97AS. Not happy with mine on the TLX.

hondamore

I'd be curious to see a poll of PAWS RLX drivers asking if they would trade 10 or 20% increased tire wear for the improved handling and stability of the PAWS. Also, I wonder if owners would live with the earlier replacement for the quietness and improved fuel economy of the Michelins??

Every tire choice is a compromise to find a balance of tread life, handling, quietness, fuel economy etc. As a result, every driver is going to have different priorities and choose a different tire that enhances the features that fits their particular driving style and performance expectations. Unfortunately, this makes the auto manufacturer's choice of a single tire for a particular model an impossible task - they'll never make everyone happy.

My two cents.

George Knighton

I'd love to see such a poll but there aren't many places you could ask and get a genuine cross section of purchasers.

Speaking for myself, you'd have had a hard time selling me an FWD car this big without some help from AWD or P-AWS.

victorber

I think with my tire noise problem it is because I have a "lead the fleet" situation and according to my local dealership they or Acura have not heard of another RLX with that same or higher mileage. Makes me wonder how many miles were put on the "Test Article" before releasing to Production????


Inquiring minds still want to know!

victorber

Latest Update:
Just got a call from my dealer and Acura will spring for the cost of two out of the 4, only question now is Michelin or Continental's...

I really like the solid and stable feel and the reliability of the Michelin Primacy's. Even in the 3 full white-out blizzards they seemed as if they were matched to the P-AWS, CMBS, LKA, LDW systems in the RLX...

flagship

what did you do and how did it work out for you?

victorber

^^^
I just asked my Acura Service Rep to evaluate and ask the district why I should have to bear the cost of the replacement at approx. 1/2 tire life.


I'll change the these Michelins for a new set of the same make and model in Dec, and will take care of the seatbelt problem as well..

4WDrift

Hopefully garage stored, are there any oxidation cracks in the sidewalls? Is the tread still reasonably sticky?

Totally agree with Chan_Mike and hondamore about alignment checkups, same as the doctor visit, just checking up to keep abreast of issues right?

George I'd agree with you, only if you'd never had hit a pothole during the whole time in a street car; just one of those can be way worse than thumping gators. It's like bumping a telescope - you've got everything set up and the next minute it's all out of whack again. I like competent places that offer 1/3/5 year alignments and I can keep going back anytime if necessary, even the next week.

I'm familiar with the Extreme Contact DWS - compared to the Bridgestone RE970 or the Goodyear Eagle GT with stiff sidewalls, the DWS rode a lot smoother with lightened steering effort and had better snow / ice traction in exchange for a slight loss in razor sharp steering response while retaining very decent cornering grip, echoing Tire Rack surveys as a time tested performer. Less rubust sidewalls, just avoid curbs.

I'd recommend it or the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 or Hankook Ventus S1 noble2 depending on one's dry vs. snow priorities, I'll give up some dry for better snow / wet performance where it really can make a difference. Winter tires are not an option for me and DC hasn't quite needed it lately.

victorber

Update @ 35.9K Miles,
Went to the dealership and had the tires replaced with the same Primacy's and also had the 4 wheel alignment, Wow ....All quiet again and smooth as glass.
Ready for our next trip up to NW Canada in the early summer..
And Yes, Acura picked up the cost share they promised....

gbriank

I rotated my tires every 5,000 miles and aligned every 15,000 miles on my RL. Still do the same with my SHO. (Although, I don't think any of these vehicles drags the inner side of the wheel during cornering.)