RLX-Sport Hybrid

2016 Cadillac CTS V-Sport Premium First Test Review

My purpose for sharing this comparison is that those out there beyond us on the board need some prodding to recognize the Sport Hybrid as more than a unicorn of the Acura brand.

When I read this review of the Caddy, and looked at the specs, from a performance, exterior dimensions and interior space available, the cars were very close to each other in many ways. However when I saw the performance numbers and attempted to relate them to the SH, the Caddy is about 400(lbs) lighter, has an 8 speed transmission and RWD, yet 420hp/430ft-lbs tq only make it .1 quicker to 60mph and .5 quicker to the 1/4 mile at a little more then 2 mph faster. To me either the Caddy is not generating the stated rated power or again it is further proof that the Sport Hybrid is drastically under rated as we have discussed previously.

What do you all think? Any validity to the analysis?

Nexx

.5 second in the quarter mile is an eternity. should be around 5 car lengths.

TampaRLX-SH

Different animals IMHO.

A typical RLX driver would not stress over a .5 difference. Acura's are always about blending the best of most desired attributes and not necessarily the top dog of any particular attribute.

I would think CTS-V buyers ARE focused on the superlatives of the car over a pedestrian CTS and competitors.

If the expectations of the buyers are so different, I would think the metrics would be moot (at least to a typical Acura RLX buyer).

Although I appreciate those who wish to know the capabilities of the car on the fringe, I always scratch my head how much energy is spent on the 'track capabilities' of an RLX and compared to others. The RLX was not designed, built or marketed for track use.

getakey

I think you also have to look at the torque curve. With the EV, the RLX-H is going to quicker off the line with more torque at the start and later the higher hp from the Caddy takes over

neuronbob

Meh to the V-Sport. It's just a (very well-designed and fast) cruiser.

All hail the king, the actual CTS-V!

JM2010 SH-AWD

AWD makes a substantial difference in the 0-60 times, and some difference in the 1/4 mile.

getakey

in general AWD makes a difference or specific to this RLX-H?
In general, I do not see AWD as an advantage at all especially in 1/4 mile. Conventional AWD will have transmission more transmission losses for the same powered engine that would probably negate any launch advantage. But there are too many variables.

However, in RLX-H case, there are no tranny loss to rear wheels with the EVs right there. I think the main advantage is the EV torque, not the AWD

neuronbob

AWD is only an advantage in the 60-foot because of traction, or so I was taught. After that, it is a liability because of drivetrain loss of power and because of weight.

getakey

my point was that AWD advantage depends:
2 identical cars with exact same engine, tires, etc, but 1 with AWD and the other with RWD. I would bet the potential AWD advantage is lost with HP loss, depending on the tires.

Now if you have same net HP to the wheels (so bigger engine HP in AWD), then I could see AWD have launch advantage.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

377hp/341lbft and 4350lb vs 420hp/430lbft and 4000lb, one would think the latter would totally smoke the former one.

The electric motors really help the RLX from the starting line, but any other acceleration test, I'd think the CTS V sport would easily win.

sooththetruth

lol

GoHawks

I was going to say the same thing!

George Knighton

The HP rating of the RLX Sport Hybrid is just made up, and deliberately propagated at a rating designed to keep Honda from getting into trouble by over rating.

The HP total on the RLX Sport Hybrid is something like 430 HP.

The firmware determines based on its analysis of conditions and what the driver is telling it whether there's two motors engaged, three motors engaged, or whatever, and what percentage of power each motor is giving you.

I'm not saying it's a guessing game but there are so many variables that it's hard to say that at any time under any conditions all 430 HP would go to the wheels...ever. It could happen...but it's unlikely...and you won't know it.

So who the hell knows.

377 HP sounds fine, and the devil be damned.

:-)

George Knighton

Left to its own devices, the RLX Sport Hybrid is not going to automatically configure itself for the best acceleration times.

Even if you floor it in Sport Mode, you're usually automatically selecting 2nd gear.

You can load it up using the brake pedal, or you can make sure you're in 1st gear and resign yourself to shifting manually for an acceleration run to get these 4.8 and 4.9 times that we're reporting.

Winning a drag race against a 2016 Cadillac is not something that was in the design parameters.

:-)

George Knighton

Which loss, in theory, does not exist in the Sport Hybrid systems because there is no driveline attached to two of the wheels.

:-)

George Knighton

Yes. The tyre patches on the rear wheels in full power acceleration will be wider, temporarily, giving you a little advantage.

But these are incremental advantages that aren't going to add up to your feeling that the RLX Sport Hybrid system was designed for acceleration.

With the weight on the rear wheels, and the blown Cosworth motor plus extra 46 HP of the electric motor on the rear of the NSX Sport Hybrid, you get a completely different feeling. It is much more designed to provide rapid acceleration, and you perceive that.

neuronbob

Absolutely correct. I was speaking in general. Makes the Sport Hybrid system that much more remarkable IMHO, and I think that if possible, Acura should make it more widely available.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

We were visiting with a couple from Boston yesterday who are Boeing engineers (one electrical and the other mechanical), both with PHDs from MIT, and of course the topic of the Sport Hybrid came into the conversation. After a brisk test drive, they were amped up to find out more about the car. I told them of our struggles to figure out what the real power numbers are for this car because of the different hp and tq delivery from all 4 engines propelling it. We dug into the technical information and I shared with them my attempt to dyno the car, the performance data collected and then asked them if they could calculate what the wheel hp and tq might be based on certain assumptions. One of them (husband) called a friend of his that is an engineer at Honda to see if he could help figure out this mystery. After a bit of technical talk I did not understand, here is what they came up with:

ICE motor (alone) 236 ft/lbs tq or more from 2,000 rpm to 6,500 rpm with a peak of 249 ft/lbs tq at 4,700 rpm @ the wheels (9.12% drag from the DCT transmission which is less than typical because they say the transmission is particularly efficient)

(The estimated drive train loss for the EV motors are 3.51% for this analysis)

EV motor (front) 105 ft/lbs tq from 0 to 3,000 rpm (82 ft/lbs tq @ 6,000 rpm) @ the wheels

EV motors (rear) 104 ft/lbs tq from 0 to 4,000 rpm (79 ft/lbs tq @ 6,000 rpm) until 78 mph @ the wheels

Combined ICE/EV motors for speeds up to 78 mph (at the wheels):
@1,000 rpm – 384 ft/lbs tq & 228 hp
@2,000 rpm – 445 ft/lbs tq & 251 hp
@3,000 rpm – 436 ft/lbs tq & 280 hp
@4,000 rpm – 430 ft/lbs tq & 305 hp
@5,000 rpm – 426 ft/lbs tq & 330 hp
@6,000 rpm – 421 ft/lbs tq & 351 hp
@6,500 rpm – 415 ft/lbs tq & 357 hp

Combined ICE/EV motors for speeds 79-135 mph (at the wheels):
@2,300 rpm – 341 ft/lbs tq & 182 hp
@3,000 rpm – 332 ft/lbs tq & 211 hp
@4,000 rpm – 326 ft/lbs tq & 236 hp
@5,000 rpm – 322 ft/lbs tq & 261 hp
@6,000 rpm – 317 ft/lbs tq & 282 hp
@6,500 rpm – 311 ft/lbs tq & 288 hp

George Knighton

Based on what you've said here, it seems to me that Honda would have been justified in giving us a US SAE Net rating of 395 HP, for statistical and marketing purposes.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

So for a car like the BMW 750i that I test drove last week (another thread), which claims to have 480 ft/lbs tq and include a est. 15% parasitic drag coefficient to it, means that it has about 408 ft/lbs tq at the wheels. So maybe that seat of the pants impression that the Sport Hybrid has more available torque from below 4,000 rpm was right?

alpha0

Let's assume they do that in TLX Type S in next year or so. How will Acura erase lackluster response to RLX SHSHAWD from minds of potential TLX Type S customers and convince them that this Type S can go against S4, C450, new Q50s etc..I get that it is path of least resistance for Acura technically but selling the product is also equally important...

neuronbob

A bunch of geeks we are, to be interested in these numbers. (Bob pulls out a protractor and his old TI graphing calculator)

Thanks for the interesting analysis!

As we all know, selling/marketing of awesome tech has not been an Acura strength of late. It can't be that hard to say "Do you want similar tech to two nearly $1 million sports cars in your luxury car.....for less than $1 million? Here's your RLX Sport Hybrid right here. Oh, and by the way, the same tech helps you to handle your car like a champ." I'll take my check, now.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I think what this interpretation and educated guess means it is further supports our experiences that this car just pulls from below 78 mph with authority and having access to that level of torque on demand is what we are so passionately responding to. I don't know where I read this comment, but Americans buy hp but drive tq. It is the torque we are enjoying so much. It is a very special automobile! Terrific engineering.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I went to our local auto show today and alas, no NSX. But the star of the Acura display was a beautiful, '16 RLX Sport Hybrid, with a cream/beige, two-toned interior. Beautiful car, and the sound system was spectacular on HD radio with the Krell package. What a sleeper this car is. (I also talked at length to an Acura rep who said that a TLX Type S is in the works - possibly with a 6MT option). Yaay (maybe).

alpha0

If RLX has this much torque, why vehicles like Audi S6 which are heavier than RLX and has 406 lb-ft of torue has 0-60 time of less than 4 seconds vs slighly above 5 of RLX?

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Very good question. Sounds like the Audi is delivering more power to the wheels than they are stating. Also the SH gets to 60 in just under 4.9 sec. We are splitting hairs, but the complexity of the SH drive train is the cause for the uncertainty. I think the NSX is also under rated as the EV system in the SH is the same in the NSX and we have shown its additional thrust to be substantial to the ICE engine alone. I think the available torque to the wheels in the NSX is more like 567 hp & 615 ft/lbs tq in the real world at the tire contact patch, but we will see. To get 3,700 lbs in motion in 3 seconds or less to 60 mph and 10.8 sec in the quarter mile, you need the numbers I just mentioned, not what they are stating publicly. Just my unscientific perspective.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The S6 is underrated.

nist7

Very interesting, thanks for update. We (KC) get our auto show next month so I'll see if I can confirm those if I can find a Honda/Acura rep to harass

But yeah unfortunately NSX may be left out of smaller market auto shows like STL and KC.....sigh.

Very interesting to hear about the RLX though....my pre-judgement of the car certainly will need to taken back when I was harping on its MSRP vs the other 60-70k cars. Looks like the sport hybrid with the SH-AWD is quite a nice tech/feature.

I may opt for a RLX a few years down the road when I'm ready to upgrade from my current 3G TL!

TampaRLX-SH

Lexus (F Sport) , Infinity (Red Sport) and Genesis (N badge) are all creating a high performance lineup for various models in their lineup.

It would be foolish for Acura not to revive a performance badge, likely Type S.

Since the brand has 'tamed' most models in suspension and edgy performance, it has sold more volume. But there is now an opportunity to relaunch a performance version(s) that will not offend the community of buyers that have brought up the sales volumes and now cater to those who desire an edgy Acura.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Unfortunately, none of the high-end German mfrs were present either this year in STL, so I couldn't do a back to back comparison of the RLX SH to say the A6 or 5 Series like I did last year. But I will say that when I did it last year, my two colleagues agreed with me that the RLX had a nicer interior and was a better value proposition than those two models.

TampaRLX-SH

Design aesthetics aside, the A6, 5 series, E Class and CTS are all very noticeably tighter inside, both front and rear seats. I believe even the A8 (normal wheelbase - now discontinued) is slightly smaller inside. The only cars in a premium category and < $65K with a roomy cabin close to the RLX were the Genesis / Cadenz & Equus / K900. I would also add the Lexus ES, now that it is based on the Avalon underpinnings (the GS narrow and tighter).

I believe Acura was looking to offer BMW 7 series (normal wheelbase) interior space in a midsize car. I think they succeeded in that. I spent a lot of 'butt time' comparing these cars. Each time I returned to an RLX my impression was 'wow' roomy and airy inside.

NopeNope4425

When did the RLX SHAWD have a sub 5 second 0-60 run?

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Always. The car reviewers never engaged 1st gear so they were starting in 2nd gear. When you simply mash the gas in either eco or sport mode, the car engages 2nd gear from the start. You have to manually select 1st gear while in sport mode to get a 1st gear start. When you do, and also select brake hold, just mash the gas and if you are on a warm debris free surface so you can limit tire slip, 60 mph is gone in 4.89 sec time and time again. It is just that simple. Anyone can do it. The hard part is limiting the wheel slip when the tires and the surface are cold. In the summer time there is just a hint of slip from the front wheels only. In the winter all 4 slip from the start and then the front lose traction potentially to as much as 40 mph (surface dependent). The tires are not performance tires thus the traction limitations.

George Knighton

Although users here can duplicate the 4.8 - 4.9 second results, repeatedly, no well known media testers have done it.

Also, in fairness, it might not be reasonable to expect that testers go out of the way to engage first gear. It is not like American Honda provides us with instructions for maximum acceleration.

It is something that simply occurred to RLX-Sport Hybrid and others to try.

I will go out of the way to mention that the car appears to be capable of more performance than anybody published, including on road courses. That off suspension that people criticize comes into its own when you mean business.

But the car requires smoothness and calculated movements on the part of her driver.

I am not sure that it is for everybody.

On the other hand, if you are okay with a longer time to 60, and you're not going to end up in a sprint session at VIR, you'll still be just fine and won't have to worry about any of this.

:-)

NopeNope4425

So unconfirmed. This is the problem with Acura, there is always an if or but. No other manufacturer splits performance hairs like this. Hell, most underrate performance estimates.

hondamore

Acura gave no performance estimates for the RLX Sport Hybrid (that I have seen) - the sub 5 times were achieved/reproduced/again reproduced by owners. The difference in acceleration when selecting 1st gear is substantial and the reason that reported tests have been slower than the sub 5 times repeatedly achieved by owners.

Acura's only culpability in this is not clearly informing the reviewers that they had to select 1st gear (something they should have been able to easily figure out themselves as all the owners did).

Malibu Flyer

I haven't followed the NSX publicity closely. Have they given and performance numbers yet for the NSX? I assume they might have the same issue there also (require 1st gear downshift manually to get top 0-60 numbers). The performance of the NSX would seem more important tha the RLX-SH but the drive train appears to be very similar.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

In all of the videos I have not seen anyone reference your question. I would not be surprised if the Track mode or what ever is the "hammer down" most aggressive mode does it automatically. Just a guess. I maintain that the NSX power numbers are under rated, because its reported performance is better than a GTR while weighing about the same. Regardless, it is going to be one of the quickest production automobiles available for the consumer to buy.

TampaRLX-SH

I believe the NSX will have Launch Control.

The NSX is a SPORTS car. The RLX is not. Similar foundation of drive train to serve different purposes. The overlap in common is the ability to offer power and performance with improved efficiency.

neuronbob

But-but-but the RLX is a SPORT Hybrid.