neuronbob

I see @StHalcyon managed this feat last month. I found a couple of brand new black/ebony 2020 RLXSHs that are not local to me. I’m likely to shoot emails of interest to them this weekend, asking for $45k. How realistic is this price and is this the right approach? Should I shoot for lower?

jdpdata

$45K is realistic. Just depends how desperate the dealership you're working with. Good luck 🤞 You're not waiting for TLX Type S to be released?

CadiGTi

I wonder if Acura still has the $11k factory incentive and the $1k owner loyalty bonus? I went with my friend in NYC yesterday. She factory ordered a 2021 Audi A6 Prestige. $71k sticker. Paying approximately $68k for it. I got to drive albeit in NY traffic. The A6 in Prestige trim is a very nice car, but really made me appreciate the tremendous value the RLX is. You have to consider the value you get for the price paid. If it were me I would feel $45k is a great value. Plus it would be great to have you owning a RLX again!
Perhaps offer them $45k but insist they add an extended Acura warranty. Or offer them $42k and let them meet you somewhere in the middle?

neuronbob

I am pretty "meh" on the Type S at this point. RLXSH at $45-7k is a better deal, and objectively better than any TLX. The only feature missing would be CarPlay, and I can add that. If I can get a good deal on a new RLXSH, or on a lightly used one, I will jump on it.

That's a good idea, though I usually buy Hondacura warranties from Curry Acura. If I can make it work, it's worth a shot.

mrgold35

I think I would lean toward the RLX hybrid because of its "one and done" and might not return in this form anytime soon. The TLX Type-S will be available every year new and used for the next 6-10 years. Chances are the RLX hybrid and the Type-S will have very similar level of performance (nod going to handling because of the Type-S sporty suspension). I'm thinking both the RLX hybrid and TLX Type-S will come in at the same curb weight (RLX having much more interior room). My RLX makes people turn their heads when parked or on the road.

jdpdata

I agree with you, TLX-S is meh to me too. After driving the 2.0T and getting a taste of the interior, I do feel the RLX SH is a step above. For $45K brand new, nothing can touch it. GROM VL2 will remedy infotainment deficiencies. I'm very happy with my RLX with GROM. It's a nearly perfect car now. Kicking myself every time I drive it, such a great car with all the bells and whistle. It's such a rare beast and a sleeper. Last night I was toying around with "Sport" mode on freeway. Holy crap this thing surprises me with the noise it can make at 3rd-4th gear (albeit probably piped-in) and that crazy acceleration!!

StHalcyon

It is worth a shot. I've always lived by the rule, "Never hurts to ask."

I achieved $15,300 because of strategy and factors working in my favor. I feel like I would not have been able to do so on strategy or external factors alone. Below is my strategy:

1. Start out with getting quotes like TrueCar or Costco Auto Program. These are automated with preset values entered by dealers. I used TrueCar through American Express. (Also, Costco Auto negotiates less discounts than TrueCar.)
2. Sit on the automated quotes. Dealers know they're not the only player in the game and they are competing with others.
3. After some marinating, the dealers will then send you revised quotes, as they will think your silence from you is due to they being outbid by another dealer.
4. Only after I get all the revised quotes will I go out to the dealership to negotiate.

After that, it's down to poker face, negotiation skills, and other factors. In my case, I was fortunate enough that the dealer I bought from had 3 new Sport Hybrid RLXs in stock. And other area dealers having new RLXs and CPO/used RLXs helped with the negotiation too. For example, Acura's own certified inventory website acuracertified.com still listing stale inventory that had already been sold for weeks definitely helped, such as the famed $41,920 2020 CPO with 802 miles (also detailed by @rl015 on the otd price thread). I also used another dealer's listing of a 2020 CPO for $40,988 with 8,164 miles as leverage. And finally, you'd have to settle for whatever color combination is out there.

Yes, the factory incentive is still available, and it ends March 1. Can't speak to the loyalty/conquest bonus though. It used to be that cars.msn.com had every TSB and incentives library, but nobody seems to do that anymore. The closest to that kind of information is at costcoauto.com. (If anyone has a better, more reliable/accurate/complete resource, please share.)

DJ Iceman

Jesus f'ing Christ! The A6 can get up to that price point?! I wouldn't have even guessed an S6 (or RS6, for that matter) was up there. There is no way in hades that car is worth that much. Yet you see them all over the roads, so I have to conclude their lease deals are amazing...

CadiGTi

Just a few short years ago the RLX Advance stickered just shy of $70k. So right there at Audi A6 3.0 Prestige pricing. If I remember correctly Acura dropped sticker to approx $63k for 2018 model year. Audi does offer a 2.0 4 cylinder on the 2 lower trim level A6s. The 4 cylinder A6 starts in the $50s. My friend drives low miles so leasing would be an expensive luxury. Dealer quoted about $850/month on 36 mos lease 7.5k annual miles for Prestige. The salesman commented the Prestige leases out poorly and that why majority of their leases are Premium and Premium Plus. This is the #2 Audi dealer in US and they said 84% of their business is leasing (Beverly Hills Audi is #1)
dealer gave her $21k for 2017 RDX Advance. It almost 5 years old, has 17k miles, and had original cost just north of $40k. Typical Acura high value, cheap to keep, very good resale.

neuronbob

That was insane, a 2017 RLXSH Advance was $69k. And now look at where they are on the used market, about 35-40% of that in only 4 model years. I’d score one, but I prefer the new nose.

StHalcyon

I believe a major part of the reason for huge depreciation is because of the increased cost associated with hybrids. If I was to look at some sources of depreciation, not only is the RLX Sport Hybrid a depreciation hole, but also Lexus GS 450h and other equivalent such as the BMW 5 series hybrid. Cost of manufacturing, maintenance and ownership, coupled with market forces where oil prices didn't skyrocket, all contribute to greater depreciation rates for hybrid vehicles. That's just my opinion though. But in the end, anyone wanting to buy used or certified used will definitely come out ahead. Like neuronbob, I also preferred new as well.

CadiGTi

I am not so sure the Hybrid is the main reason for the RLX rapid depreciation and usual heavy new car discounting on all RLX models. The RL and RLX have never sold well. Acura came out of the gate with guns blazing in the late 80's with the Integra and the first (1986) and second generation Legend (1991). In 1996 Acura killed the Legend and the new replacement RL was huge sales disaster, even in a great car sales year. There was a bit of sales uptick in 2005 and 2006 with the totally new AWD RL. Then sales started a precipitous decline. In 2008 I purchased a 2006 RL with 4k miles. It was the top of the line with the collision mitigation system. I remember the dealer offering to sell me a brand new 2008 RL Tech for $9,000 off MSRP at the same time (spring 2008). IMO Acura had major marketing dysfunction with the 2005 and up RL. They were much too humble and failed to toot their own horn.
By 2011 when the second generation RL had it's 3rd and final re-fresh, Acura only managed to sell 1,096 units for the entire model year in the US. 2012 was the final year for the RL. In 2012 Acura sold 379 units in the US. I would think the 2011 RL and the 2012 RL were probably THE lowest selling car model from any car manufacturer in those 2 years.
The 2020 RLX Acura imported less than 800 total RLX's to the US (Hybrid and non Hybrids)
Davis E Davis Jr who was a legendary automotive racer and journalist wrote a glowing review of the all new 2005 RL. I agreed with everything Mr Davis said about the RL. Unfortunately Acura did not know how to run with this momentum and most all other journalists never looked deep enough at the RL to discover its real sizzle.

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/acura-rl/

neuronbob

...and don't forget the competition from Hyundai. The Koreans have caught up to Honda. I'm still a Honda person because Honda offers a sharper driving experience even in its luxury cars, but if I were a traditional luxury buyer...Genesis or Audi would get my dollars. Instead, I'm chasing down the last of a breed.

As an aside, I fully expect Acura to stop selling sedans as that's not where the market is right now. Look at how badly the new TLX is selling, vs the MDX, which dealers can't even keep on their lots. Still working deals via email...I have time, I'm a Costco member and know about the $11k dealer money, and if there are no fabulous deals, I'm happy with my manual Accord.

neuronbob

A quick question. No significant differences between 2018-2020? Can’t really find any. In addition to looking at new cars, there’s a 2018 red/seacoast (another acceptable combo for me) in my immediate area with only less than 15k miles for a great deal. Will test drive it in the next few days and decide what to do.

StHalcyon

Let's keep in mind my comment was in regards to depreciation. If we want to talk about new discounts, this opens up a whole new set of discussion points. But generally speaking, you did hit the mark with "dysfunctional marketing." There was an article that looked at marketing theory, and they theorized that automobile companies that renamed their models suffered significantly more sales drop than those that did not. In regards to Acura, the author surmised that had Acura not decide to switch to the two letter model naming scheme (then later adding "X"), Acura may have done much better riding on the momentum of established Legend and Integra nameplates. (If memory serves me right, the author mentioned that this was a decision by Honda executives in Japan because the Legend and Acura brands were starting to encroach on the Honda name. I could be wrong though, as I have read way too many automotive articles and I'm also getting older.)

Then there is also another facet of marketing, "brand cachet," as it deals with the finicky consumer behavior. In my personal opinion, I believe Acura's value approach in their strategy hurts them. Unfortunately, there are more luxury brand consumers who equate higher price to better. And those seeking value are in the minority, and I am definitely one of them. Perhaps if Acura prices their cars higher and provides more nitty-gritty options than just bundled packages, Acura might do better. But if Acura goes that route, it will turn me off and I will probably end up buying a Subaru, Honda or Toyota. But consumers like me are in the minority, so losing me in exchange for consumers who brag about the sticker price of their luxury things is far more profitable. (Keep in mind that luxury consumers who brag about sticker prices does not mean they don't seek out deals when they actually buy. It's about image.)

And finally, another personal opinion of why Acura suffers is the damn automotive journalists. I have no idea why there is a collective belief that Acura designed cars are always labeled bland that easily gets lost in the crowd. I roll my eyes every time I read reviews of newly launched Acuras. If every car looks like BMW, it'd be a terrible world. I happen to think that Acura's designs are beautiful, except for the original guillotine before the design was softened mid-cycle. In that regard, I believe the automotive journalists are simply biased. It's one thing to want a car to drive as connected to the road like a BMW, and another to want all cars to look like a BMW. And in my own personal opinion, I don't find the new Lexus design language ("L-Finesse" since 2013) attractive at all. Does anyone else not imagine Predator when they look at the current Lexus design? No, just me? LOL But design is wholly subjective, and unfortunately journalists are unreasonably too critical of Acura.

Back to my point of depreciation though. If you look at any luxury brand models that offer a hybrid trim, their depreciation rates are worse than their all-combustion trims. In fact, that also occurs in the non-luxury brand models too.

Absolutely! I've often told my friends that Hyundai in the 2010s have reached traditional standards in terms of quality and performance, especially with the launch of their Genesis Coupe. I will be remiss if I did not admit I looked at Hyundai before buying the Acura TL back in 2012. I even cross shopped the Genesis brand before settling on the RLX SH recently. In fact, before I even looked at the RLX, I had narrowed my choices down to 2021 Mazda CX-5 Signature and 2021 Subaru Legacy Touring XT. After an agonizing couple of weeks, I decided to go with the Subaru. I still prefer sedans over SUVs. Just as I was about to leave the house to pick up the Subaru on January 15, I decided to look into the used market, thinking the Subaru deal isn't going to disappear till the end of January anyway, so they could wait. That led me to a CPO RLX SH, which then led me to a new one. I surprised myself that I was able to negotiate one down to $45K. Had it not for that, I would've gone and picked up the Subaru.

And you're also right on the money that Acura may end up discontinuing sedans. If that happens, the RLX may be my last Acura. Subaru recently announced they are committed to the Legacy long term, as the platform will underpin their best selling Outback and other models for many years to come. Because I stubbornly refuse to go into an SUV, the next generation Subaru Legacy may be my next car in the next 7-10 years. Unless the TLX Type-S does well enough in performance and sales that Acura decides to bring the Type-R nameplate back and introduce a manual transmission TLX. If that happens, I may even trade in my RLX earlier than my projected long term ownership. One can dream, right? =)

mrgold35

The 18-20 RLX are the exact the same models. Nothing different between them other than the model years and price in the new or used market (might get an updated Navi map database with later models). The only downside with going with an 2018 RLX compared to a 2020 RLX is having less time on the back end for the 4 yr Basic, 6 yr Powertrain, 6yr & 7 yr CPO, and 8 yr hybrid component warranties.

neuronbob

I can always add Acuracare as long as the car's still in its bumper to bumper warranty period. Curry Acura still sells them for a reasonable price.

I am also a sedan/wagon person. Unfortunately, most Americans want a SUV. As for the TLX, if it had come with a manual, I'd be in one right now, rear seat be damned.

mrgold35

I don't think we hit the +8 year mark on any sport hybrid components yet? I haven't been keeping up for any issues or if anyone made a warranty claims under the 8 yr/100,000 hybrid warranty? Finding a CPO RLX might cover you 99% along with all the other standard warranties if you keep your vehicles 8-10 years or a little over 100,000 miles. My 18 RLX hybrid was CPO to give me more time on the back end with coverage. I haven't decided to add Acuracare to my 19 MDX hybrid just yet and still have 24 months or 30,000 more miles to go before I need to.

CadiGTi

The 2017 Press release for the 2018 RLX
https://hondanews.com/en-US/releases...iking-redesign

1 of the few youtube reviews of the updated RLX:

r10apple

I paid $49,100 for mine in October, so this sounds $45k does seem realistic.

StHalcyon

I haven't come across any significant complaint in terms of quantity about the high voltage (or IMA) battery packs in the RLX SH. The battery was one of my major concerns I looked into before buying the RLX SH. The 2014 model year should be coming up on 8 years in September 2022, and the 2018-2020 models still a ways off. (I separate the two only because the high voltage battery pack is totally different starting in 2018: 1D070-R9S-C10.) If the battery had been an issue now or near future, Acura would've added another year of coverage like they did with the Honda Civic Hybrid's battery pack. Or I would hope so.

Interestingly, only the Warranty booklet for the 2020 model year calls out the high voltage battery's degradation:
Does anyone know if there is some documentation that spells out the acceptable degradation rate by age of the battery? And I would hope this applies to every Sport Hybrid model years starting with 2014.

Since this thread also includes discussion about AHFC's AcuraCare extended warranty, I find these 2 observations quite funny:

1. When pricing the AcuraCare extended warranty for the RLX SH, the explanation for being more expensive is due to the hybrid system. Yet all the expensive items in the hybrid system are already covered under the 8 year / 100,000 mile base warranty. Only the remaining cheap(er) components are covered by 4 year / 50,000 mile warranty (or 7 year / 70,000 mile for CA, CT, DE, ME, MD, MA, NJ, NY, OR, PA, RI, VT, WA). Double-charging?
2. When the engine oil consumption TSB hit my Acura TL, I asked if there would be extra time or mileage added on top of my AcuraCare's 8 year / 120,000 mile, and I was told no. Just seems like I'm subsidizing Acura's cost to repair their issues. LOL

mrgold35

I'm assuming my 19 MDX and 18 RLX use the same battery pack with different EV software programming? I've noticed my RLX battery pack has a wider range of use of a low of 10% and a high of 95-100% in normal driving. I'm usually in the 1/3 low or 3/4 max in the same driving situations for my MDX hybrid. My RLX also has a wider range of EV modes like in EV in reverse, stays in EV mode longer, sooner EV engagement at lower speeds, and higher mph for EV mode for the RLX compared to my MDX hybrid. The end result for all that EV mode is 28-30 mpg avg for my RLX compared to 23-25 mpg avg for my MDX hybrid. Hopefully, all that extra EV mode doesn't degrade and shorten battery life for the RLX hybrid.

StHalcyon

I believe they're different:
2014-2017 RLX SH 1D100-R9S-C01 (1.3-kWh Li-Ion)
2018-2020 RLX SH 1D070-R9S-C10 (1.1-kWh Li-Ion, 8.2 lbs lighter than previous)
2017-2020 MDX SH 1D100-5WS-A10 (1.3-kWh Li-Ion)

It's possible that the actual individual Lithium Ion cells themselves may be exactly the same from the same manufacturer, but that information isn't available, and Acura/Honda sells the battery pack as a whole.

I can't speak much about EV range of use, since I mostly keep it in Sport mode and also don't use the EV display on my HUD or MID. Maybe I should start looking. Based on occasionally looking at the battery charge needle, sometimes it is 80%, sometimes 20%. I don't have enough mileage to get consistent data. Yet.

rlx015

Given Biden's politics on banning fossil fuel production domestically, and instead of paying other countries handsomely to sell us oil will drive gas prices back to 4.5-5$/gal = which in return will result in hybrids holding their value a little bit better... once he loses presidency in 2024 (and we all know he will lose) that is when I would get rid of hybrid, because, republican coming in will cancel all glorious dozens of Executive Orders that Biden signed and in one fell swoop revert back to all what it was under Trump... as politics continue to be exactly that, politics - it will inevitably impact regular people, however one voted or did not vote in 2020...

Richard Howells

Original sticker price for the RLX 2020 hybrid with Advance package was well near sixty-five thousand. When accurate decided to stop making the RLX they lowered the price down to the 40s so it is definitely worth it. I bought one last July had to go 5 hours away from home to get it in the color I wanted and I'm not disappointed one bit. It runs circles around the TLX.

mrgold35

Very strange price marketing with the RLX. The RLX/TLX always reminded me of the Camry and the slightly larger Avalon type of relationship with only slightly different styling, power, and size,for those wanting more passenger space without going to a SUV. The RLX -vs- TLX huge price difference didn't make any sense when you compared the models and features side-by-side with a $9000-$16,000 gap. That big TLX/RLX jump in price also didn't make any sense when you looked at the MDX hybrid for only $1500 more than sh-awd 3.5L tech or Adv version. Selling the 2020s in the low/mid $40s for fwd RLX tech and mid/upper $40s for the RLX Hybrid seems closer to the real world value; but, 6 years too late.

neuronbob

Still biding my time. I'm effectively awaiting the Type S before leaping. Will giving up back seat space be worth the performance? We'll know as we have only a few more weeks to wait. Seems to be a plentiful supply of my particular preference of RLX Sport Hybrids new, in any case. I can't believe people actually think dealers are going to try market adjustments (read: above MSRP) for the Type S. That will be a deal breaker for sure.

nist7

Yeah...guessing with this Type-S revival that certainly will drive quite a bit of demand in some people...so some dealers I'm sure will be scalping and marking them up. But other dealers will be MSRP..just have to find them and be on a list....might be some wait though due to the extra production issues with covid + semiconductor shortage

rlx015

This "semi-conductor" shortage sounds too convenient in the circumstances that play in favor of dealers... not much of a conspiracy theorist, bur makes you think, since 2020 was horrible for dealers, are they just speculating on these so they can hike up the prices of new as well as used cars ...

nist7

Oh the chip shortage is very very real. If you're into building computers yourself...you are very well aware of how crazy low video card shortage is right now....its over 6mo out from the release of new gen stuff since Q3 of last year and STILL it is very very difficult to find video cards right now due to production shortage and huge demand.

Car makers are shutting down plants because they don't have enough chips to make cars....Ford is proritizing trucks and whatnot....nothing shady at all.

This absolutely sucks for car makers because they dun goofed when they initially lowered their expectations for supply need and car sales reboudned WAY faster and harder than the car makers expected....so car makers are losing HUGE amounts of money because they cannot keep up with demand...they are selling every single thing they make.

Dealers, on the other hand, are making money hand over fist because of pure supply and demand. There is a big shortage in suppply with demand not AS depressed as you expect...so the delta drives the prices up insane..you hear crazy stories of how much Carvana is offering used cars and dealers are making way more per sales than before.

In short, car dealers VERY happy, car makers and consumers are getting screwed big time. It is a horrible time to buy a car from a dealer right now. Best bet would be to find a good deal private party - but even CL ads are going insane.

Wife and I were looking to upgrade our daily beater (06 TL) last year BUT when we saw how crazy the auto market is...we have now decided to hold off for at least probably 3 years to let supply and covid effects wear down some more. It will take at least a couple of years for things to "normalize."

But like you said...dealers will do dealer things. They will continue to behave like the scums that they generally are AND with any new performance model release - people with money or those without money but willing to shell out for a big loan because enthusiasts buy more with their heart than their brain.....dealers will fully take advantage...because that's what dealers are...they are for profit businesses and will extract as much money from customers as they possibly can.

There MAY be some dealers who are "good guys" (see C8 corvette dealers who are honoring MSRPs) BUT you willl need to get on a list because you either will have to pay mark up to get a Type-S fast OR be on a waiting list for sometime and get one at MSRP...or you are lucky enough and is already on a list at your local ACura delaer and they don't bend you over at the finance manager's desk.

neuronbob

So....CarMax has offered around $30k for my manual Accord. For reference, I paid $29k for it (MSRP $32.9k at the time I bought). That can't be right, but if so, I may sell and use the profit as a down payment for an RLX.

In addition, I found a red/greystone 2020 with around 8k miles (virtually new), only a short drive from me. $43k.

We'll see...

nist7

If carmax is offering 30k (insane...) then I'd think you could easily get several grand above that by selling it yourself?

phile

I don’t know how they do it but Carmax offered me the lowest price on a 2018 Hybrid with decent mileage (~33k with ~32k miles). Dealers in my area were pushing 38k for hybrids with 45k miles. And I didn’t trade in but when I went to pick up my car, I overheard other customers remarking that Carmax gave them the best offers.

rlx015

Perhaps I am bit suspicious about the whole pandemic related thing globally, chip shortage OR toilet paper shortage for that matter... what world do we live in when there are no more ways to be informed in an abundance of technology being there - but only to either scare us, sell us, harvest us and our data...

neuronbob

Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. However, the used car market is wonky right now. Selling to a dealer saves me time and effort and given my day job, time is limited. I'll be taking the Accord over to Carmax in a couple of days to see how real the offer is. If it's for real (and I'm not convinced), I'm taking advantage of it, even though I really like this Accord. You can't beat flipping an ordinary car for a small profit.