When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I’m at 30k and they say it’s time for the carbon clean. I skipped this on my tsx and i put 250k on it without any problems ever. With the turbo I’m wondering if this is more crucial? A must? Or just a money grab by Acura.
Who is ‘they’? The dealer? Or Acura’s maintenance minder?
If it is the dealer, file that suggestion under “ADP”, additional dealer profit. Were they going to walnut blast the intake valves, or just dump some chemical in there?
If it were necessary, then the manufacturer would add that to the MM. Madd is correct - additional dealer profit. The owner needs to make a boat payment.
Who is ‘they’? The dealer? Or Acura’s maintenance minder?
If it is the dealer, file that suggestion under “ADP”, additional dealer profit. Were they going to walnut blast the intake valves, or just dump some chemical in there?
I think it’s an Acura recommendation as part of routine maintenance- it wasn’t a maintenance minded code. I didn’t ask what the process was - it was $99. They said it doesnt take long. I’m guessing they run some $9 cleaner from autozone through the system.
I think it’s an Acura recommendation as part of routine maintenance- it wasn’t a maintenance minded code. I didn’t ask what the process was - it was $99. They said it doesnt take long. I’m guessing they run some $9 cleaner from autozone through the system.
yep, a chem clean.
While some DI engines are subject to carbonized valves, I would hold off on doing anything until it becomes clear that ours are.
I spoke with my indy about my 535i and walnut blasting, because the BMW boards were full of the talk. He said, do you have any codes? No. Do you feel a fall off in power? No. So, he said, wait until you have an identified problem. 11 years and 130K miles, and no carbonized valve problems.
I think it’s an Acura recommendation as part of routine maintenance- it wasn’t a maintenance minded code. I didn’t ask what the process was - it was $99. They said it doesnt take long. I’m guessing they run some $9 cleaner from autozone through the system.
Really? Where does it say that in the owner's manual.
I don't think you understand that service is where dealerships make their money. Service managers are trained on how to up-sell a customer. They'll give you all sorts of reasons why you need to rotate the air in your tires on a seasonal basis and to change your blinker fluid.
I had a service advisor come to me once looking very concerned, telling me that I really need to include an additive when they do the oil change. It would only cost an additional $49.95 but was strongly recommended and they are considering making it mandatory because of the benefits.
I asked them to return my car. Once it was in the drive-up, I reached in, got my owner's manual, and showed them the passage that read "Volkswagen does not recommend the use of any additives as these may invalidate your warranty" (or something to that effect). Since I had no intention of ever going back to that dealership, I went to see the service manager who told me that VW told them that was incorrect and they should use those additives. I asked to use his phone and called vW corporate, who told me to follow the recommendations in the manual.
A few weeks later there was a new service manager and an almost all new crew there.
It's been confirmed that certain DI motors across different manufacturers have an issue with carbon build-up on the intake valves. So far, the only surefire way of cleaning them are as Madd Dog stated and remove the head(s) and do a walnut blasting. Whether or not the sprays work, they might, but who knows to what degree. If you're dead set on doing it, you can do it yourself very easily:
The cans are like $15 or less. You'd probably get charged 10x the amount at the dealer and get the same service. Honda's V6 Earthdream engines seem to be more problematic, haven't personally seen anything on the turbo 4's yet. The VW guys (who probably have it the worst) are convinced it's more to do with your driving type than anything else. People who take shorter, more local trips reportedly get this issue more so than those who take their cars out for extended periods and lots of highway miles in the same amount of time of ownership. If you really want to know, you can always buy a borescope on Amazon or wherever and take a look at the valves. You could also try adding a catch can, but nobody really knows how much that actually helps, if at all.
Really? Where does it say that in the owner's manual.
I don't think you understand that service is where dealerships make their money. Service managers are trained on how to up-sell a customer. They'll give you all sorts of reasons why you need to rotate the air in your tires on a seasonal basis and to change your blinker fluid.
I had a service advisor come to me once looking very concerned, telling me that I really need to include an additive when they do the oil change. It would only cost an additional $49.95 but was strongly recommended and they are considering making it mandatory because of the benefits.
I asked them to return my car. Once it was in the drive-up, I reached in, got my owner's manual, and showed them the passage that read "Volkswagen does not recommend the use of any additives as these may invalidate your warranty" (or something to that effect). Since I had no intention of ever going back to that dealership, I went to see the service manager who told me that VW told them that was incorrect and they should use those additives. I asked to use his phone and called vW corporate, who told me to follow the recommendations in the manual.
A few weeks later there was a new service manager and an almost all new crew there.
yeah I checked the maintenance schedule and it’s not on there. You’re all on point - dealer scam.
Speaking of dealer scams - we have 2 RDXs...one we bought at our usual dealer (which i really like - they're no nonsense, just do what you ask, nothing extra), the other is from another dealer i'm not fond of but got a better price there for the A Spec. Anyway, this other dealer tried to sell me on some $115 package on the 1st oil change, basically oil change, and fuel and oil "additive"...such BS. The guy tells me it's required for Acuras...i'm like I've had Acura's the past 10 years, this is the first I've heard of this. Then he had to go with the "well, we recommend it".
I have an oil catch can installed and I check it every 1-2k miles or usually after long road trips. The car is still very low miles at 5.5k after one year and I make 10 mile trips to commute in NYC (takes 40 mins to 1 hour each way) I sit in a good amount of traffic and don't ever get to really WOT often at all. I usually get a decent amount oil every time I check it. The collected oil is usually darker and a bit more viscous than what's in the oil via the dipstick.
I have an oil catch can installed and I check it every 1-2k miles or usually after long road trips. The car is still very low miles at 5.5k after one year and I make 10 mile trips to commute in NYC (takes 40 mins to 1 hour each way) I sit in a good amount of traffic and don't ever get to really WOT often at all. I usually get a decent amount oil every time I check it. The collected oil is usually darker and a bit more viscous than what's in the oil via the dipstick.
what catch can setup did you use? do you have a link?
I have an oil catch can installed and I check it every 1-2k miles or usually after long road trips. The car is still very low miles at 5.5k after one year and I make 10 mile trips to commute in NYC (takes 40 mins to 1 hour each way) I sit in a good amount of traffic and don't ever get to really WOT often at all. I usually get a decent amount oil every time I check it. The collected oil is usually darker and a bit more viscous than what's in the oil via the dipstick.
I too would like to know which catch can you use. How did you mount it in the engine bay? I'm assuming it's baffled?
Quickly browsing thru BITOG, seems most mass market 10W-30s have very good (low) NOACK volatility ratings. Definitely going to be using it during the summer months. Probably switch to a 5W-20 for the cooler months and winter as supposedly it fares fairly well in the NOACK test as well, at least better than the 0W-20s.
I went with a Mishimoto setup and a few trips to home depot to set it up. Seems other people having success with the Honda Accord kit with some mods as well. The can I bought is baffled, I also bought some extra oem hose from dealership as well. The plumbing was a little bit confusing for me but I got it to work eventually with help from other members. There are plenty of pics in that thread.
Oil catch can, another thing I need? Ran first gen to 200k miles without issues and no catch cans, now I need to get one because of some scary video..... no thank you.
Oil catch can, another thing I need? Ran first gen to 200k miles without issues and no catch cans, now I need to get one because of some scary video..... no thank you.
Your 1G didn't have direct injection. Carbon build up on the intake valves has been well reported across numerous manufacturers and is a known problem with direct injection motors to varying degrees. Oil catch cans are not an end-all solution either, but it may help, seeing as it will reduce oil and other contaminants from getting into the intake tract, but not all. Will this help? Probably. To what degree? Nobody really knows.
Your 1G didn't have direct injection. Carbon build up on the intake valves has been well reported across numerous manufacturers and is a known problem with direct injection motors to varying degrees. Oil catch cans are not an end-all solution either, but it may help, seeing as it will reduce oil and other contaminants from getting into the intake tract, but not all. Will this help? Probably. To what degree? Nobody really knows.
And if I don’t get it, what’s going to happen to the engine, will it not last to 200k miles like typical Honda engines?
And if I don’t get it, what’s going to happen to the engine, will it not last to 200k miles like typical Honda engines?
Hard to say really. It's not like it's going to destroy the short block, it really only effects the intake valves, which will cause the car to have idle and power issues if it gets real bad. There's a number of VW and BMW guys who purport that their intake valves were/are real bad at as little as 50k miles. Looks like walnut blasting isn't too expensive, usually running around $500, but you need to be selective in who does your work. Get some hack and it could ruin the motor if they don't know what they're doing.
Again, a catch can is not going to solve the problem of carbon build-up, but could help delay its effects.
Quickly browsing thru BITOG, seems most mass market 10W-30s have very good (low) NOACK volatility ratings. Definitely going to be using it during the summer months. Probably switch to a 5W-20 for the cooler months and winter as supposedly it fares fairly well in the NOACK test as well, at least better than the 0W-20s.
Isn't it a little early to kiss your warranty good bye?
I always and only use the oil recommendation of the manufacturer.
I'm not sure why you'd want to do that? After all, the faceless people on the internet know a lot more about the car than does the manufacturer.
When your warranty repair is denied because you can't prove that you did all of the required services and used the proper parts/fluids, then I'm sure that the manufacturer will change their mind and cover the failure when you say "but XYZ on an internet board said that the other oil was much better for the car."
Hard to say really. It's not like it's going to destroy the short block, it really only effects the intake valves, which will cause the car to have idle and power issues if it gets real bad. There's a number of VW and BMW guys who purport that their intake valves were/are real bad at as little as 50k miles. Looks like walnut blasting isn't too expensive, usually running around $500, but you need to be selective in who does your work. Get some hack and it could ruin the motor if they don't know what they're doing.
Again, a catch can is not going to solve the problem of carbon build-up, but could help delay its effects.
Honda been making DI engines for how long, 5 years now? Given Honda solid reputation in building engines, wouldn’t you think they solved carbon build up issues by now?
Top tier gas and regular oil changes with quality oil should keep it clean if engine is designed well.
Honda been making DI engines for how long, 5 years now? Given Honda solid reputation in building engines, wouldn’t you think they solved carbon build up issues by now?
Top tier gas and regular oil changes with quality oil should keep it clean if engine is designed well.
My wife’s DI-engined Accord is 5 and a half years old and has 50 something thousand miles on it. Regular oil changes when the MM hits 15-20%, the right oil, only top tier gas, and there have been no codes and no fall off in engine performance. I don’t follow that board much anymore, but I don’t see complaints about carbon buildup.
Honda been making DI engines for how long, 5 years now? Given Honda solid reputation in building engines, wouldn’t you think they solved carbon build up issues by now?
Top tier gas and regular oil changes with quality oil should keep it clean if engine is designed well.
DI engines are still every young. Honda is actually small comparative to some of the bigger automakers. VAG, the second largest automaker in the world, has issues with their GDI motors. Toyota probably has the best solution as of present day with dual injectors, but who knows the issues those may have down the road due to complexity. It’s not that the motors are “bad” ... it’s simply an inherent design flaw in the engine. Using top tier fuel will have absolutely no effect on carbon on the intake valves. Anyone who tells you differently is misinformed and ignorant to the actual design of DI engines. Fuel never touches the intake valves, hence why they have the issue in the first place. But, it’s not a bad idea to run some cleaner thru a tank every so often since the injector nozzles are in the cylinder, leaving them susceptible to their own carbon issues.
Regular oil changes will likely help, but I don’t have any anectodal proof To support that, but regardless is a good practice. As far as quality motor oil ... depends on what you mean. People hold Mobil 1 on a pedestal when they’ve proven time and time again to be a fairly middle of the pack full synthetic. Also, simply because they have good additive packages doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll fare better in a DI application. If the NOACK test is highly correlated with carbon build up, and I can see the logic behind it, then you would have to start looking there. Unfortunately, not all companies post theirs. Amsoil Signature has extremely good numbers. The lower tiers aren’t any better than mass market oils. Valvoline 5W-20 Full Sun also has some good numbers. Tho, their new “modern engine” formulations supposedly specifically for DI engines have very high N%. But I hear these are now almost impossible to find. So, who’s to say if NOACK and carbon even have a lot to do with one another, but it couldn’t hurt. Also, don’t go by viscosity, as that has absolutely no correlation between NOACK or even flashpoint. Generally, the 0W’s don’t fare well. Really they don’t do well with anything due to their wide viscosity range. Compromises. I’ve seen 10W-30’s that fare better than both 10W-40 and 5W-30, and 5W-20 better than 10W-40 and even some 10W-30s. As like anything, it’s a range an dependent on manufacturer. Just like a 0W-30 can actually be thicker than a 10W-30 at operating temps but the ignoramuses will scream that the 0 is too thin and will destroy the engine. It won’t. But you gotta look at the PDS to actually find out.
Hoping for all our sakes these motors are less problematic. Best defense is frequent oil changes and making sure you get the oil up to operating temps every time it goes out, or as frequently as possible.
I think all manufactures by now are aware of the issue and have made design changes to mitigate the issue of carbon build up. There are some sources that say top tier gas and detergent oil helps, maybe they figured out ways in which it helps
Going back to the OP, before you buy any treatment that goes into the fuel tank (or top tier gas, which may be worthwhile but not for this problem), consider this.
Direct injection means the fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber; It does not go through the intake valves. So the fuel never hits the back of the valve (the stem side). The gook forms on the back of the valves. It mostly comes from the EGR system. So the fuel never washes the built-up gook.The CRC commercial, above, alludes to this problem. I can't say if that product is effective but at least it hits the right spots.
It is believed that Honda DI engine design allows for fuel vapors to occasionally touch back of the valves to clean them.
there is also no evidence that oil catch can will help with carbon buildup on valves.
It is believed that Honda DI engine design allows for fuel vapors to occasionally touch back of the valves to clean them.
there is also no evidence that oil catch can will help with carbon buildup on valves.
Interesting read, but nothing in the PDF actually addresses carbon build up on the valves. The shroud added to the intake valves addresses high-tumble air flow, but I didn't see anything talking about the issue of carbon build-up or fuel touching the back of the intake valves.
A catch can is completely optional and again, won't save you from having the issue. But, removing oil from entering the intake ports can only help IMO.
Interesting read, but nothing in the PDF actually addresses carbon build up on the valves. The shroud added to the intake valves addresses high-tumble air flow, but I didn't see anything talking about the issue of carbon build-up or fuel touching the back of the intake valves.
A catch can is completely optional and again, won't save you from having the issue. But, removing oil from entering the intake ports can only help IMO.
Agree its not confirming any carbon buildup mitigation. Its more of a speculation at this point. Things to consider, and this are just my thoughts:
1) DI engines been on the market for a while (other makers, and at least 5-6 years in Honda).
2) Its very likely the design of 2.0T took into consideration how to keep valves clean given earlier issues.
3) Honda might not be willing to disclose specific design considerations as its proprietary advantage to their competition
4) Honda has always been known for its engine durability (not so much transmissions)
5) If you google Honda DI carbon build up, very few, if anything comes up
6) If its a widespread issue, I would expect Honda extending warranty coverage. When they messed up 5AT transmissions in early 2000, the warranty was extended to 100K/7yr and a lot of good will repairs were done even after 100/7.
Not quite the right thread, but an FYI for others.
My wife took our RDX in for an oil change and tire rotation yesterday. The dealership wanted to align all four wheels for an additional $140, and use some kind of oil detergent for $30. The service adviser explained that they add the cleaner to the old oil, run the engine, and drain it with the old oil before replacing with new oil. This is, allegedly, "to prevent the engine from burning oil when you reach 80K miles."
We have 20K miles, and took a pass on these suggestions.
Not quite the right thread, but an FYI for others.
My wife took our RDX in for an oil change and tire rotation yesterday. The dealership wanted to align all four wheels for an additional $140, and use some kind of oil detergent for $30. The service adviser explained that they add the cleaner to the old oil, run the engine, and drain it with the old oil before replacing with new oil. This is, allegedly, "to prevent the engine from burning oil when you reach 80K miles."
We have 20K miles, and took a pass on these suggestions.
Here is what your owner's manual says about oil additives. I guess its good for dealer either way, your engine goes belly up... more $$ for them.
Agree its not confirming any carbon buildup mitigation. Its more of a speculation at this point. Things to consider, and this are just my thoughts:
1) DI engines been on the market for a while (other makers, and at least 5-6 years in Honda).
2) Its very likely the design of 2.0T took into consideration how to keep valves clean given earlier issues.
3) Honda might not be willing to disclose specific design considerations as its proprietary advantage to their competition
4) Honda has always been known for its engine durability (not so much transmissions)
5) If you google Honda DI carbon build up, very few, if anything comes up
6) If its a widespread issue, I would expect Honda extending warranty coverage. When they messed up 5AT transmissions in early 2000, the warranty was extended to 100K/7yr and a lot of good will repairs were done even after 100/7.
So, back on this topic, I read a study a week or so ago that actually states higher NOACK is what you want. It would be in line with Valvoline's new "modern engine" formulations that all have higher NOACKs. I'm too lazy to dig up the citation, but it basically said that oil vapors aren't the cause of build-up carbon on the intake valves, but actual oil. Apparently oils with lower NOACKs will tend to actually seep actual oil rather than oil vapor into the PCV which would then make it into the intake tract. Interesting if true. Again, I think that the fact that Valvoline came out with a formulation specifically targeted at carbon issues on GDI engines and they all have high NOACK % ... there may be some truth behind this. Think I'll stick with 0W's for now.
So, back on this topic, I read a study a week or so ago that actually states higher NOACK is what you want. It would be in line with Valvoline's new "modern engine" formulations that all have higher NOACKs. I'm too lazy to dig up the citation, but it basically said that oil vapors aren't the cause of build-up carbon on the intake valves, but actual oil. Apparently oils with lower NOACKs will tend to actually seep actual oil rather than oil vapor into the PCV which would then make it into the intake tract. Interesting if true. Again, I think that the fact that Valvoline came out with a formulation specifically targeted at carbon issues on GDI engines and they all have high NOACK % ... there may be some truth behind this. Think I'll stick with 0W's for now.
Wait? What? The engineers that built this thing know more about what's appropriate than a bunch of faceless people on the internet? Unpossible.
10-26-2019, 09:48 AM
