leo200617

I've bought an Acura TSX 2012 base model last November and I've noticed many weird things with the transmission and the engine. Under hard acceleration, there seems to be no problem with the 1st & 2nd gear, but the 3rd gear worries me. Directly after engaging the 3rd gear at the end of the 2nd gear, the engine's rpm goes to 5100rpm, raises to 5200rpm, decreases to 5100 and goes up normally again. What's strange is that the car keeps accelerating while doing that. It's just strange to hear that. I presume that the torque converter is slipping.

Continuing the acceleration in 3rd gear, at 6150rpm, there's some weird noises coming out from the engine. I've never heard what a pinging engine sounds like so please precise me if it's the engine pinging or it is something else.

Still continuing the acceleration in 3rd gear, at 6900rpm it does the same thing again like at 5100rpm! My hypothesis is that the torque converter slips a lot at 5100rpm and keeps slipping a bit until 6900rpm and then when it stops slipping, full power are available at the wheels until 7100rpm (I've never tried to accelerate fully with the 4th gear).

What do you guys think? It happens every time I try to overtake a big truck or a car. They are some threads in this forum about these problems but there seems to be no definite answer.

Here's a clip with the problem in action

thunderbt3

Search is your friend:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=torque

If you put a couple ball bearings in a metal coffee can and shake it around, that's what pinging sounds like.

I noticed the metric speedometer. Are you located in Canada? Does Canada have the equivalent of the autobahn? I usually can pass big trucks and cars without the need to do ~120mph.

HondoGermany

I got the same problem, for me its worser when downshifting from 4th to 3rd and I´m between 4000- 5500rpm.
This is only in S-Mode, not in D ! Have you tried same accelarating in D-Mode, no Probs with accelaration on my car in D !
no idea at the dealer why this is so!!
I think I posted a video, too, but not sure?

leo200617

I just tried my dad's MDX 2011 automatic and it actually does the same thing, it's less noticeable because of the extra power but the rpm still drops a bit in 3rd gear. I guess it happens with all automatic cars with a torque converter...

I'll try it in D-mode next time and see if it does the same thing again. If there's no problem in D-mode, why would I use sport mode?

its rayden

to me, it looks more like something is cutting the throttle input for a split second.

Simba91102

It sounds like what you're experiencing is the torque converter locking and unlocking. It unlocks to soften the shift (from 2nd to 3rd for instance), then locks again. It is slipping slightly from 5100 to 5200 at the shift, then when it locks again, the rpm's drops back to 5100. Remember also that this is right around where the V-tec changeover takes place. I can't quite make out what is going on at the higher revs. It may be the same thing, but you don't mention if there is a shift to 4th gear involved here. It's too soon for the rev limiter to cut power (which is actually what it sounds like), so I'm guessing it's the torque converter. I might advise paying less attention to the tachometer as long as the car is driving OK. There are emissions concerns that affect what the torque converter does too. Can't help on the engine noise.

gonzo08452

there is a TSB on the pinging noise

09-041
October 22, 2011
Applies To:
2009 TSX - ALL
2010 TSX L4 - From VIN JH4CU2...AC000001 thru JH4CU2...AC009053

Engine Pings During Moderate to Heavy Acceleration
(Supercedes 09-041, dated July 21, 2011, to revise the information marked by the asterisks).
REVISION SUMMARY
*Under WARRANTY CLAIM INFORMATION, a labor operation number was changed.
SYMPTOM
The engine pings during moderate to heavy acceleration.
PROBABLE CAUSE
The PCM software, combined with knock sensor sensitivity, may not adjust the ignition timing as expected.
NOTE : This condition does not cause internal engine damage. Some engine ping is a desired characteristic for optimal performance and fuel economy.

CORRECTIVE ACTION
*Replace the knock sensor, then update the PGM-FI software. If you're working on a vehicle with A/T, also update the A/T software.*
NOTE : On vehicles with A/T, you must update the A/T software to complete the repair.

PARTS INFORMATION
Knock Sensor: P/N 30530-RL5-A01
Intake Manifold Gasket (four required):P/N 17115-R40-A01

REQUIRED MATERIALS
Acura Long Life Antifreeze/Coolant Type 2
(One gallon repairs about 20 vehicles):P/N 0L999-9001

SOFTWARE INFORMATION
HDS Software Version:2.019.009 (August 2009) (gray) or later.

Control Module (CM) Update:Application Version V6.18.06 or later.
Database Update 05-AUG-2009 or later.

NOTE : To avoid an incorrect repair that would not be covered under warranty, use the software version listed above or a later version.


The updated PGM-FI software program IDs and P/Ns are shown below. If these or a later program IDs are the current ones displayed during the update, the software for this service bulletin is already installed.

iSeeYouTwo

Do TSB's ever expire??

ceb

Not a straightforward answer. While Technical Service Bulletins generally don't expire, there are some things that can make them obsolete.

The issue causing the issuance of the bulletin could be overcome by events. - early modern diesels had a TSB regarding the use of low sulfur fuels. That bulletin is now OBE because consumer stations only sell low sulfur fuels. In the mid 70's, cars had TSBs reminding owners to use unleaded fuel only - also OBE.

There can be an update to a TSB making the original one obsolete.

However, I must address a misconception about TSBs - and that is their intended purpose.

A TSB is merely an informational document to a dealer telling them how to deal with a common, newly found or perceived problem. It tells the dealer how to diagnose the problem, how to fix it and how to bill for the repairs.

The TSB may tell the dealer why a perceived problem isn't a problem (condensation in headlights for example ) and how to explain to the customer why a problem isn't covered by warranty (interior trim bubbling on MB, BMW and Audi because of the use of oil based cleaners like ArmorAll for example)

While most TSBs apply to in warranty cars only, in some instances the manufacturer may will authorize a goodwill repair (or a partial goodwill repair) and will tell the dealer(in the TSB) how to handle out of warranty cars - the TSBs that authorize a dealer to repair an out of warranty car without cost to the customer are often referred to as "hidden warranties"

dsc888

It's interesting to note that Honda says a little bit of pinging is OK. It seems Toyota thinks the same as well. I've noticed that the Camry Hybrids ping like mad in the city. Here in Boston, all the new cabs are Camry Hybrids and you can tell there is one near by when you here the pinging.

I seem to hear an intermittent ping from my new wagon as well but it's only on acceleration. I use premium fuel so it should not be the octane numbers. My 2004 TL never once pinged.

cris_crozz

Hello there guys. I'm new to the 'zine and I'm having a quite similar issue like the OP.
Whenever I'm in S-mode and using the manual-shift option I feel a loss of power at 3rd & 4th gear.
1. Coming from 2nd gear at about 5500rpm to 3rd, rpm drops to like 3500 to 3100 with a feeling of slippage or loss of power.. similar to fuel cutoff. no matter how hard i step on the throttle there's no effect, not until after a few seconds (something like 15seconds, which is forever). Then after than it regains power as it goes up the rpm.

2. Again, coming from 5th gear to pass a vehicle, i downshift to 4th and the rpm drops drastically and with the same characteristic as number 1 above. loss of power or slippage or fuel cutoff. the stays like that for a few seconds before it regains some power again and engine speed will rise like normal.

this is somewhat frustrating because it does not happen when in full auto mode (D-mode) and the reason we have S-mode and Manual Shift option is that we can control upshift and downshift more.

Now I don't know if the OP's issue has been resolved by the dealer but since my warranty ends in about 3000miles, i would like to have any information whether this has been claimed for warranty by other owners so I can come in to the dealer armed with more information.

Thanks everyone & drive safe.

HondoGermany

Look at my post #3, and still got the problem. I´m out of warranty now. Nobody could solve this problem. Its not on every i4. Many of my friends who drives the same car dont know this problem.
Updates at the dealer didnt help either!

cris_crozz

i was going through some TSB and i read one 09-041 about engine ping on moderate-heavy acceleration. was this done to your CU2 by the dealer? it does sounds like a possible fix. I suspect it to be more electrical/electronic issue than mechanical since under D-mode, there seems to be no power drop during it's acceleration, which to me eliminates a torque converter failure. but that's just me. hope to hear more feedback.

cris_crozz

Here's the video on my TSX

cris_crozz

I would also like to add that the "slippage" can occur below 5000rpm. in the case of my video between 4000 to 4200rpm. Leading me to believe it has nothing to do with the VTEC crossover as mentioned and I quote:

I missed my appointment at the dealer last saturday so I was not able to get a response from Acura. But i rescheduled it for next saturday. I will show them the video and also have a tech test it for them to find out.

Maybe if driving on the freeway, this issue does not pose any danger. But if you are driving on a 2 way street and going to overtake a vehicle, this "slippage" then becomes dangerous as it slows you down and if there's already an oncoming traffic, you can't afford any split-second delay.

HondoGermany

exactly the same as mine! I hate this, but no solution till today. Wish you more luck with your car at the dealer than I had!

cris_crozz

Thanks man, I hope so too. Will let you know what happens at the dealer.

ESHBG

I tried mine today a few times and it didn't seem to do this however, it does seem to be a semi-common issue from what I am reading (and some of the '09+ TLs seem to have a goofy tranny issue going on as well, and it seems like the torque converter may be the culprit there). It was also fun to see how far one can wind the gears out (80 mph in 3rd gear and still with some room to breathe) and how much power there is in the higher end, and it goes to show how much you are generally missing out on while driving an auto.

*I live in a very urban environment with nothing but stop and go traffic, I rarely take the highways (and they are jammed most of the time anyway) and have no real reason to shift manually, hence why I am in D 99.9% of the time.

cris_crozz

been driving sticks all my life basically. started driving at 14 and now i'm 34. this is my 1st car that isn't manual. my left leg is tired already. i needed this break. haha

thunderbt3

That is torque converter lockup.

At what speed are you experiencing the dip in RPM?

Not sure if you know how a torque converter works since this is your first automatic, but here's an explanation:

The torque converter is a viscous coupling using fluid to transfer power from the engine output to the transmission so automatic can do without a clutch. The torque converter is basically a pump that is pumping fluid (engine side) against vanes (transmission side) to transfer power. This allows the engine to transfer power to the transmission but allows for both to rotate at different speeds. For example, you stop at a red light. The engine is still spinning at 800-900rpm idle while the transmission is spinning at 0. There is no mechanical disconnect, its just fluid pumping against stationary vanes. That's why you need a clutch on a manual to "disconnect" the engine from the transmission so you can stop and have the engine still running.

The viscous coupling is good at protecting the engine and transmission since there is no mechanical direct connection between the two. Torque converters are never 100% efficient due to the viscous coupling. The engine loses some power in the viscous damping because its pushing fluid vs a direct engagement with a traditional clutch. Where does this lost power go? Heat. The engine is pushing fluid on the vanes on the transmission but the transmission isn't using all that energy due to friction, vehicle weight...etc. That is why trucks with high towing capacities or higher performance automatic cars have bigger heavy duty transmission coolers.

So lets say you're cruising on the expressway at constant throttle/constant speed. The torque converter is still losing power to heat since its never 100% efficient. This is going to kill your fuel economy. To overcome that, torque converters lock up once they get to cruising speed. That is why I asked at what speed the RPM's dip. Once the torque converter locks up, its basically a direct connection from the engine to the transmission. There are ways on other cars to enable and disable lockup manually, just look it up on Youtube. Thatss also the reason why MT cars have better fuel economy.

Normally, manufacturers will make the lockup not noticeable since most people will start freaking out if something is not smooth. The dip we see on the TSX is a combination of things:

1. Automatic transmission. Manual transmission are technically locked up 100% when the clutch is engaged.
2. Torque converter lockup at 4000 rpm.
2. High throttle. The torque converter will still lock up at cruising speed, but you wont notice it since you are cruising.
3. Extra load on the engine in 3rd gear along with lock up occurring in 3rd gear. That's why you don't see it in 1st or 2nd.
4. Engine calibration:


This is the dyno for the 6MT. I'm sure it is a similar calibration to the automatic since its the same engine. There is a dip in the torque curve right around 4000 rpm. I think this was done in order to smooth out the torque converter lockup point and protect the torque converter at lockup.

Finally, if the torque converter was slipping, wouldn't the RPM's INCREASE under hard acceleration vs DECREASE as shown in your vid?

I've experienced the same dip at 4K RPM: https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...7&postcount=12

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter

cris_crozz

Thank you for that info. Initially I was thinking It was that too, or maybe it is but something in the onboard computer is maybe triggering it to lock up when it's not yet supposed to. we don't know for sure. I know I don't. I used the term "slippage" loosely that's why I used open and closed quote on it as it is not really a slippage but just gives a feeling that it is slipping.
But I am going to the dealership this saturday HOPING for an improvement.
What I am complaining about is that while all A/T locks up at cruising speed, I am not even cruising when this occurs. This is the 1st A/T car I own but I've driven A/T as much as i've driven M/T, my dad never drove M/T, my stepmom can't drive M/T as she only have one usable leg, my closest cousin have a Lexus IS250 with paddleshifter as well and I have logged significant hours driving their cars not to mention rental cars.
The IS my cousin owns never do this, so I am convinced there is something wrong. The issue may not even be so serious as it can only be a software update.(worst case scenario: faulty TC). It maybe locking up at a certain speed thinking that the car is already at "cruising" speed when clearly It is still accelerating.

This could've been a non issue for me if this was my 1st time ever to drive an A/T. I could've just said "oh, so that's why people don't like A/T" and moved on.

Anyway, we'll see what Acura says on saturday. If (and IF) i get a fix, I'll let you guys know. If there's nothing they could do about it, then I'll just move on I guess.

thunderbt3

Similar stories:

http://www.car-forums.com/s9/t29593.html
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18997
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...rter-7228.html

ESHBG

Ha ha I feel ya for sure! I have been driving manuals off and on all of my life as well and it was time to switch up for an Auto when I purchased my TSX, seeing as it was going to be my sole daily driver.

cris_crozz

I still drive my stickshift hatchback as daily, since work is fairly close and that small thing is a gas saver 30mpg city. but the stop and go traffic is now getting to me... im thinking of selling the hatch and put the money to work on the TSX... man, it's just nice to rest these legs!

thunderbt3

Any updates from the dealer?

cris_crozz

yes. frustrating. a tech came with me. he saw the hesitation during acceleration & downshifting to pass a vehicle. but cannot point to a definite cause and solution. since i insisted they try and do a software update, they did that. and since i was not sure if the tranny fluid was serviced by previous owner @60K, (67K when i got it & because the service record did not say it was done) i had them do that too. per dealer, the issue does not warrant a replacement because "overall" it works as it should. i spent almost half the day at the dealer, mentioning that other people are experiencing this too, but for them this was the "first time" someone reported the issue. i'm not satisfied. honestly. i might have to see another acura dealership before my 70,000mi.

no, the issue was not resolved.

TurboJunkie

Anybody find resolution with the dealers on this issue? Hate to revive an old thread, but my cars doing the exact same thing in 3rd and 4th gear and four trips to the dealer has resolved nothing.

leo200617

I learned to live with it. It doesn't matter to me anymore. As long as the car works, it's fine by me. I also went to the dealership numerous times for this problem and no solution has been found.

TurboJunkie

Thats unfortunate...I've had several cars before my 2013 TSX, non of which displayed this characteristic which Acura claims is "normal."

I'm consulting with an attorney at the moment, I'll keep you updated on the results if you'd like.

djiban

This happens to me too, only on 3rd gear tho between 3k-5k RPM. Mine is 2013.

TurboJunkie

I have a 2013 model as well. In 3rd gear it only drops/slips about 200 RPM's...in 4th gear, it drops about 500 RPM's. Been replicated by two separate dealers, both of which claim that it's "normal operation of the vehicle" which I refuse to believe...

Spoke with two different attorneys who both felt the problem doesn't significantly impact the value/safety of the vehicle, so they wouldn't take on the case. They both also mentioned Honda/Acura doesn't normally settle these disputes and would rather take the case to trial. My assumption is these attorneys specializing in lemon law are looking for a "quick buck" as opposed to long drawn out trials.