I'm a 3-time Acura buyer, so I'm a big fan of all things Acura brand -- reliability, value, technology and performance.

And I've been eagerly awaiting the 2011 TSX to get the improved NAVI and various other upgrades that I've been waiting for since my 2005 TSX was purchased.

However, because they're taking so long to get the 2011 in the lots, I've been given the time to look around for alternatives, and my eyes have feasted upon the 2011 A4 Prestige.

I was surprised that the cost difference between a top-of-the-line A4 is within a few thousand dollars of the V6 TSX Tech. Which puts it on my radar for the first time.

Yes, I know Audi reliability doesn't hold a candle to Acura reliability. Yes, I know the top-of-the-line Audi is not a V6. Heck, I know that the Audi doesn't do Bluetooth streaming, which I really value as a tech feature.

But, the top-of-the-line Audi has a stick, and is very close in performance to the V6 TSX. Some say it's more fun. I need to test drive both to find out myself.

The A4 Prestige seems like a substantially more upscale car inside and out, for "only" a few more thousand (10-15% more $$). While there are a few tech gizmos the A4 is lacking, there are many many more gizmos that the TSX skips that the A4 has -- including push-button ignition, which is, bizarrely, important to me.

The #1 thing that makes me wary of the A4 is the reliability factor. And I've read several competing perspectives on this. Primarily, I've read that over 70k miles, the difference is night and day. Well, I rarely keep a car over 60k miles (even though I do own and don't lease). And after warranty is up, the A4 is substantially more $$ to repair.

Yet, my last 5 years with my TSX have not been issue-free. I've had to bring it in for service 4-5 times during my ownership, and have spent thousands of dollars in repairs for a variety of reasons.

I still believe that Acura is the reliability leader, but my 05 TSX has been the least reliable of the 3 Acuras have owned.

I still really like the TSX a lot, and it's still in my top 2 for my next car. But for the first time *ever,* I'm seriously considering an Audi this time around.

I figured this would be as good as place as any to be talked down. So, go ahead, straighted me out!

Jon

 

Can't really talk you down, honestly?

I am a big A4 fan (former owner). It's almost worth it to own one, even with the reliability issues, sometimes, lol.

But, you'll regret the maintenance once the "new" wears off.

Stick with the Acura!

 

Close performance with the V6 TSX? Not likely. The V6 TSX run low 14s on the quarter mile (Proven by InsideLine, video on youtube). The Audi A4 does 15 flat or 15s according to MotorTrend and InsideLine. So in terms of performance the V6 TSX is ahead by a lot. Not close. I don't call .7 seconds plus close.

Audi do make nice cars, and the A4 is quite luxurious. Why not pay less and get a TSX V6 that performs better, and you save some money to treat yourself. I think that's the better deal.

Who actually will buy the more expensive car that performs less; if one was deciding between the two cars.

I'll tell you to just stick with Acura. Wait for the 2011.

 

Alright, good start!

@princelybug -- can you describe your reliability issues with your former A4? And, to be fair, hasn't the reliability of the A4 gone up recently?

@HondaOnWorks - funny you say "stick with Acura." Ironically, one of my issues is that the more powerful/rewarding V6 cannot be gotten in stick format! Only automatic. I need to look up the performance figures, but it looks like the V6 beats the A4 slightly in 0-60 and in the 1/4 mile. So, that's good for TSX. But... the snappy performance of a QUATTRO A4 might mitigate the slight straight-line performance advantage of the TSX. Ironically, haven't most people in TSX-land argued that straight-line performance should not be the primary factor? That it should be handling and road-feel?

I'm also a big NAVI/GPS guy, and it seems as though the Audi has Acura beat in this area. If the new TSX's stuck with the touch screen interface, perhaps I'd still see Acura winning this fight. But with the knob-based interfaces everywhere, it looks like the Audi system might be superior. Once again, I do need to check all of this myself in person.

For what it's worth, I did plan on waiting for the 2011's to arrive... but for heaven's sake: It looks like it won't be until Nov until we see them!

I kind of blame this whole thought process on Acura's V6 pricing. Once they break the $36k barrier on a TSX, cars touching $40k are just around the corner. My 2005 TSX Tech was $29500. That's an entirely different price range that completely obliterates any of its competition.

 

I'm also seriously considering the new 2011 A4 (Avant). Its 8 speed transmission matches the MPG of the 2011 TSX 4 cyl. However, the A4 2.0T engine is pretty incredible. I have an A3 2.0T which generates 207 lb ft of torque. With the DSG transmission the acceleration is truly incredible. 0-60 comes in about 6.4 seconds, totally stock. Motorweek tested a 2010 A4 Avant at 0-60 in 6.3 seconds. The 2011 8 speed will be just as fast but will get up to 30 mpg on the EPA rating.

A 2011 Avant with the sport package and navigation comes to $45K which I expect will be about $8K more than a TSX wagon.

I do have to say that my 2004 TSX has been absolutely bomb proof. I have 72,000 miles with not a single problem. I have free oil for life from my dealer and they even replaced my brakes for free once because its the 3rd Acura I've purchased from the dealer. The service experience is also always pleasant whereas New County Audi in Greenwich is an absolute joke.

Its a big trade off. I am going to test drive both cars as soon as the TSX wagon hits the showroom and I think it'll just come down to the driving experience. If you have the cash and are willing to pour maintenance money into a car then the A4 is the way to go but the reliability of my 2004 TSX is so reassuring...it's like a warm blanket at night...I just never have to worry.

 

To be fair, yes, I guess reliability has supposedly gone up. But, for reference, I had a B6 2003 A4. I had the car for 4 years, put 115k on it.

In that time, I had all four coil packs go out. TWICE. So that's 8 times total that my car had stopped on the road and had to be towed.

I had numerous fuses go out. Once, the "wiper" fuse went out, and it was drizzling outside.

Twice, the fuel filter needed replacing, and you KNEW that's what it was, because while driving, the car made a piercing high pitch sound that was unmistakable.

My headlight washer nozzles went out after 2 years of ownership.

I'm sure I'm missing a couple of other things, but those were the major issues. I told my wife to convince me NEVER to buy German again. EVER.

But, I know I'm , I miss my A4 for some reason. If I could ever afford a 3-series, I'm thinking about picking one of those up, too, although my brother-in-law has a 335i that spends half it's time at the stealer.

 

Great info. Thanks. I don't even know what a coil pack is, for which I will give full credit to Acura!

My TSX has never left me on the side of the road. No Acura has. Though, my TSX came close a few times, I've always been able to get it to the shop if it needs some care.

I'm not quite sure I'm ready to get back into a car that can leave me stranded. I really enjoy the reliability of Japanese cars. And for the life of me, I don't understand what the major malfunction with German cars is anyway -- they're supposed to be the most sophisticated car makers in the world.

I suppose the question is -- have they improved significantly since the B6? Consumer Reports says that reliability is a "6" for the A4 and a "7" for the TSX. Sounds about right to me.

Hmmm....

 

This is precisely the reason these cars break down, according to a friend of mine who's had a Bimmer, MB, and an Audi.

He says that they stuff all this "untested" technology into these cars, all these crazy electronics, and since it's not fully proven/tested, it breaks down.

 

The A4 isn't really a competitor to the TSX or TSX-Tech. Once you add navi to even the base A4 you are over $40K, right in 3-series range. The TSX, as Colin will point out, is not trying to be a luxury car. It is aiming for "near luxury" whatever that means. So if you are willing to spend $40 grand on a car you might as well look at other cars in the $40K range. There are a lot of them.

I owned a 3 series coupe. I loved that car, drove like it was on rails. You point it, it goes there. The TSX's handling really doesn't compare, as much as people on here like the TSX handling. It is better then non-luxury or family cars, but doesn't match a performance car like the 3 series. Low end torque on the inline 6 engine was pretty nice. However, the car was a bit of a maintanence hog. BMW though really stood behind the car and everything was fixed for free under their maintanence agreement. It was in the shop more than any other car I've every had, hands down. I sold it after 4 years as the warranty was running out and it was going to need new control arms. It was like new and I hated getting rid of it.

The TSX was attractive purely from a value standpoint. I really didn't want to spend over $40K on my next car. The TSX is a compromise. If you don't want to compromise and don't mind spending, go for the A6, or 3-series and you will have several years of enjoyable driving in between visits to the dealership. Then you will be ready to get rid of it and go for the more reliable value play... the TSX. You will be sad to see it go, but look forward to the different experience with the TSX.

My 06 has been solid, not once let me down except for the time I ran the battery down and that just needed a jump start. This has been my most relaible car ever. It is a little boring compared to the 3-series, but hey, I saved over $13K and that is not chump change at a time I was buying a new house. I think the TSX has some head room to add features and still be a value play, but Acura doesn't want to go there.

So decide what's important and how much you are willing to spend. Go for the fun car, hopefully the TSX will still be around when the fun is over.

 

I hear ya, but I also think you're actively re-framing on two levels: price & value. (plus, you brought in the 3-series, which I think is still a different style of car than the A4 & TSX -- both I'd argue focus more on overall loveliness and sport/luxury balance than raw sportage)

On Price:

$40k might be a convenient mental watermark, but it's merely a number in a range of numbers. Let's talk percentages, which I think are more objective than opinions of what $40k, $35k, and $30k are... which are nothing more than $5k increments (approx $1k/year in costs on a 5-year loan).

So, as far as I can see, the TSX V6 Tech will run me about $35k if I get a good deal at the dealer (based on TrueCar info). And as far as I can tell, I can get the A4 QUATTRO Prestige (includes Nav, etc.) for about $39k (based on TrueCar info).

So, even with the $40k watermark in place, we're still talking sub-$40k for all that care about subjective watermarks. But, objectively, the Audi is 11% more expensive than the TSX, yet it is an AWD machine.


On Value:

Imagine if Acura even offered the SH-AWD in the TSX (which I so want!)? It'd likely be in the same price-range as the QUATTRO Prestige A4 (assuming 11% increase in price for SH-AWD in addition to the V6). Agreed?

So, similarly-equipped, the cars are essentially priced in the same range if we equal out the "big" features like AWD and Nav. Yet, many put the A4 in another league (BMW, Mercedes, etc.). So, if I see the A4 as a car that is "the next level up" that is essentially the same price bit-for-bit with the TSX. If this is the case, isn't the Audi A4 Prestige actually a better value than the TSX at this point?

And none of this even touches upon the fact that Audi offers the stick-shift in this "top-of-the-line" sedan, whereas with the TSX, I'd be forced to go automatic in order to get performance.

Again, I'm not trying to sell the TSX short (I love mine, and I love the 2G version). What I'm trying to do is really challenge myself to find good value and performance in the next go-around. And looking at my above frame, it would appear to me that the Audi might indeed be a better value per dollar than the TSX. I know, I know. Heresy! Acura is the value-leader in the ultimate near-luxury "grand compromise." But, frankly, once they threw that V6 out there and bumped up the price north of $35k, they opened themselves up to competing with the next tier of automobile.

My bottom-line analysis, devoid of subjective watermarks:

The top-of-the-line, fully-equipped, all-wheel-drive A4 can be purchased for about 11% more than the top-of-the-line, fully-equipped, front-wheel-drive TSX.

True statement? Fair statement?

I'm open to being wrong, folks. That's why I'm posting on the Acura forum and not on the Audi forum!

 

I don't own an Audi, but when shopping for the new car, I'd happened test-driving the A4 base, fwd, I4. Compare it my now 2010 TSX in term of power and engine response, I have to say, the A4 is far better than my lovely TSX I4, especially the acceleration.
The 2010 TSX that I own now seems lack of response when accelerating.
Note 1: I said my specific TSX, I don't know how other TSXs performed
Note 2: I ONLY talk about the acceleration when you push the gas pedal), I do NOT compare any other features.

For instance, like yesterday, driving at 45mph on I-93N, I wanted to shift lane, so I pushed the pedal (not all the way though), in the dashboard, the needle whooping from 2000rpm to 3700rpm almost constantly but the needle in the speed-meter staying at 45mph, and it took about few seconds to "move" my car up to 50mph.
This thing never happened when still drove the Accord 03, but again, my old Accord was V6 with 240hp.
So 201hp TSX seems really really weak compared to the 240hp Accord. Honestly, I even feel the TSX weaker than my stick-shifted Prelude 89.

 

^^ I hear what you're saying Pinatubo. The TSX is my first car with AT tranny so the lack of pedal responsiveness is a bit of a downer. That's why I'm in D for most of my driving, but in sport mode with the paddle shifters when I need more responsiveness. Sport mode really helps to maintain the revs when you need them.

Jon, I test-drove the A4, 3-series, C-class and TSX (4-cylinder) back-to-back and I can tell you that the TSX definitely loses out on power but handling is not too shabby compared with all but the 3-series which is arguably the bench-mark of handling. People on this board always complain about the EPS and numb steering feel on the 2nd Gen TSX but if you actually test-drive an A4 you'll notice exactly the same thing. Actually, if my memory is correct the A4 felt even looser than the TSX in terms of steering feel. If all-out performance is what you're after then it's hard to not pick the A4 which you can get in stick and you can make substantially faster with an ECU mod for the turbo.

I don't know if you've tried this but when I was comparing cars I made a little spreadsheet and graded different categories of things that were important to me (like styling, reliability, operating cost, purchase price, etc). Might help you out. One aspect of reliability that really swayed my decision was that Acura's reliability issues never ever leave you stranded. Take one look in an Audi forum and you'll see issues of cars not starting, random warning lights on the dash and sudden dying of the cars while driving. I can handle small reliability issues but not big ones like those.

Personally, I'd never own a German car unless I had money to burn. Lease is a different story. I drive my cars to the ground and I like a bit of luxury so Acuras are a good fit for me.

 

^ good idea on the spread sheet. It might sound lame but if your about to invest thousands of dollars into something this important, do what you gotta do to help make your decision.

 

@5thTo2nd - funny that your line-up of cars you test-drove do not equate with what Rocket-Man and others state -- that the TSX does not compete with that class of car. I think competition is relative to the context of the shopper.

Also, note that I never said that I was looking for all-out performance. I'm looking for a balance of sport, luxury, tech, value and reliability. Not necessarily in that order.

So I decided to sit in a 2011 A4 today at the Audi dealer (I have really never been in one before, and I arrived too late to drive it) and here are my initial impressions of the cabin and tech:

First impression is "pow" - really sharp, clean and lovely interior. Looks like a custom-made suit whereas the TSX looks like a nicer suit from JC Penny's.

Turned on the MMI/NAV and, again, "pow" -the design, resolution, contrast and choice of colors make the screen really look sharp and of really high, professional quality. I can't speak for the 2011 HD-based NAVI, but it makes the earlier Acura NAV system look like amateur hour in the elegance department. Same for the in-dash info-screen. It's a mini-version of the big screen, with full graphic and color support... not a limited info-screen like in the Acuras.

I found the seats to be supportive, but not nearly as comfy as those of my 05 TSX.

I found the cabin to be taught; not spacious. I kind of like it -- it's sporty/intimate.

As I started playing around with the system (remember, I couldn't drive it), I found the controls to be a bit difficult to navigate. It felt like a lot of button presses to do things I'm used to doing in my TSX. That said, mine is a touch-screen, so it's apples & oranges. I need to compare Audi's MMI to Acura's new knob-based system.

As far as I could tell, the voice recognition would not let me input street names (bummer). I'm not sure if Acura's lets you do that or not. Navigating Sirius stations was OK, but it was a bit of a pain to scroll all around. It has presets, but not the same way the Acura has presets. I'm really going miss having touch-screen, guys.

I couldn't find any way to change the 'view' of the NAV from birds-eye view. If there's a way to do it, it wasn't obvious or even semi-obvious.

I was not in the Prestige, so this might not be relevant, but I was disappointed to find out that there is no 'keyless entry' -- in fact, you have to enter your key fob into the dash, and then push it to start the car. Whatever. Not impressed.

So, after 15 minutes with the dash and technology, I'm left with mixed feelings: Beautiful, elegant, and snappy. But not necessarily super-easy-to-use. Certainly not what I'm used to with my really intuitive interface on my 05 TSX.

 

Ah yes, the eternal question for the thoughtful enthusiast: European driving excellence and luxury, or Japanese reliability and value? After fifteen years in European cars, a 1995 Jetta GLX and 2001 Saab 9-5 Aero, I decided to take a breather from the reliability issues, and bought a 2010 TSX, base with 6MT. I'm very happy with the TSX, and with better steering feel and another 15 hp and lb.-ft., I'd be thrilled.

Even so, between the A4 and V6 TSX, I'd get the Audi. Manual transmission is a must for me, the Audi's DI turbo four has plenty of torque, and the handling balance must be better with AWD and a lighter engine. The larger trunk is a big plus too. I really miss the massive 16 cubic feet I had in the Saab, and the A4's trunk is about that size. It's a great overall package.

While the Audi probably won't match the Acura's reliability, it shouldn't be that bad. Audi/VW have improved of late, and this generation has been on the road for a couple of years. To me, that's a big deal. I wouldn't even buy a Honda or Acura in the first year of a new generation.

Problem is, if I were willing to spend that close to $40k, I might plunge further for a BMW 335i, which has simply devastating performance and impeccable dynamics. Or maybe a TL with SH-AWD and the 6MT, or Infiniti G37. I understand the value proposition you've laid out, which makes some sense, and I have no problem with four cylinder engines, but the Audi's price strikes me as too high.

 

I have a hard time getting excited by the Bimmers. First, I find the interiors to be devoid of posh. To me, Bimmers are a "just the facts, ma'am" interior ethos, whereas Audi and Acura try to lush it up a bit.

So, you can already see that I'm willing to give up the *best* performance in exchange for *good-to-great* performance + really slick interior design and technology options & usability.

I have always thought of Acuras as the "grand compromise" of tech, value, reliability, luxury and performance. But as their prices continue to creep up as they build out more performance and options (V6 & SH-AWD), their value advantage begins to shrink. And, their NAV/tech package is looking a bit like Windows XP compared to iPhone-like interfaces on other cars' NAVI screens.

All of these things matter. The question is, how much?

I find the performance characteristics of my 05 TSX quite acceptable -- esp. for under $30k new. Sure, I would like more sure-footedness in tight turns that the FWD just won't offer. Sure, I would like a bit more punch off the line. But overall, a grand compromise was achieved at the time.

Five years on, I would love to address some of the yearnings that I have with my car: pickup, handling, and state-of-the-art tech. All without breaking the bank. I would rather not go over $35k, but it seems like I might need to go a bit higher to resolve the issues above. Even if that means an automatic V6 TSX (a not-so-grand compromise w/o manual option).

The Infiniti's feel too big to me, and the Lexus IS feels too feminine & pricey. Bimmer seems like performance trumps all plushness -- they seem "hard" inside.

So, unless I'm missing another option, I'm down to TSX vs. A4. Oh, if I decide I can't handle the TSX automatic, then I'll probably get the TSX over the A4 because the 4cyl TSX w/manual is far less expensive than a similarly-equipped A4. That is, unless I fall in love with the road performance of the A4 when I eventually test drive it.

 

As for Infinitis feeling large, I agree wholeheartedly about the M series. Those feel huge, and somewhat ungainly, especially with the AWD and its elevated ride height. At least the previous generation did. The G, on the other hand, feels reasonable to me, partly because it's so narrow. (I think it's narrower than the TSX.)

I somewhat agree about the BMW interiors. The austere, "all business" feel doesn't bother me, but I understand why it would bother some.

Your manual transmission/value analysis is largely why I ended up with a base TSX. Aside from the Jetta GLI, there isn't another comfortable sport sedan under $30k, and I wasn't ready for another VW. It's either family cars, or hot sport compacts like the Mazdaspeed 3 and Subaru WRX. The Subaru has an amazingly comfortable ride, but I couldn't deal with the cheap interior. The Mazda is a phenomenal machine, but the ride was too hard for my commuting and family hauling needs. Like you said, the TSX is a compromise, but a very reasonable one considering the options.

 

Yeah, I don't quite understand my problem with the G's, but I feel they're just swollen. Perhaps I just don't like the exterior design and that affects my view of the overall machine. I do love the G's seats, though. And their tech is pretty savvy. And the G interiors have finally reached parity with their stablemates. Oh, maybe it's the weight? With AWD, the gas mileage sags down to the low 20s. Ouch. This just adds to my feeling of G=bulky.

Austere is the right term for the Bimmer interior. I also feel a bit cramped, even though it's not really a tiny car. I'm sure I'd get used to any car in time... I should keep that in mind.

re: stick shifts. First of all, C&D is running a campaign to bring the stick back to American cars. Maybe you should sign up! I really wonder aloud how much Acura is leaving on the table by ignoring the performance-seekers that would jump at a V6+MT TSX? I suppose their market research says "not enough" -- but I am always skeptical of market research. You tend to find what you're looking for unless you are truly open-minded about the direction.

 

Unless TSX introduce LED DRL/6speed auto/upgraded engine/Google maps/better rim design. i will not consider it.
TSX is in need of MMC. and it is possible they may introudce it next summer.

 

2011 models will have redesigned rims. but the rest of the things u named are probably not available. (unless v6 count as upgraded engine)

 

6-speed auto most likely won't happen until the FMC in 2013/2014. The "new" rims for 2011 are pretty much the same design, just different color (if the sedans match the wagons).

 

V6 is not upgraded or should i say advanced engine. its torque peaks at 5000rpm. compare it to BMW 328i 2700rpm.
even 4 cylinder TSX has 4300rpm peak torque. Acura need to lower it below 3000rpm.
BMW has angel eyes. Lexus IS introducing LED DRL. Audi already had it. transmission is another short coming.
Even OEM Chrome accessories rim design is now outdated.

 

The Acura V6 has 280 HP/254 LB-FT, gets 18/27 MPG and runs 6.4 sec 0-60 with an automatic.

The BMW 328i I6 has 230 HP/200 LB-FT, gets 18/28 MPG and runs 6.4 sec 0-60 with the manual.

So how is the Acura V6 outdated? Looks pretty competitive to me. Peak torque means nothing. Need to look at the overall torque curve instead, since tuning the engine can make a big difference.

 

the same engine in 2011 528 gets 22/32 mpg when paired with auto transmission. Imagine once that engine/transmission combo goes into lighter 328
latest Auto transmission are more efficient & faster in performance than Manual.

 

The 528i has a brake regen system and an 8 speed auto, which would definitely help fuel consumption. By the way, according to BMW the automatic 328i has a 0-60 time of 6.9 sec (not faster than the manual).

 

performance figures on website are pretty conservative.
2011 BMW 3, A4, IS are already out. All of them have LED ,6/8speed, HDD navigation. for 2011 TSX your are going to wait untill December and that with outdate engine/transmission and no LED DRL.
and by spring 2012 BMW 3 will be coming along with 4 year free maintaince. there is 6 month depreciation hit with TSX coming out so late and that without significant changes.
2012 BMW 328I with 8speed, DI engine,wide screen navigation, angel eyes, 4year maintainance is far better investment for next 4 years.

 

6 month depreciation hit? Depreciation won't start until you buy the vehicle, who cares about the date it is released for sale.

The 328i will also cost you about $5K more upfront than a comparably equipped V6 TSX. How do you know the 2012 328i will have the 8 speed? It just recieved updates for 2011, keeping the outdated engine/transmission and headlights.

No car is ever a good investment, since they all are depeciating assets. The BMW will depreciate faster than the Acura as well, since Acura's have better re-sale values than BMW's.

 

car do depreciate on the lot. buying 2011 in 2011 than in 2010 give u one extra year of owership advantage down the road 4 to 5 years.

BMW has 4 year of free maintainance and has best navigation system and give u options like just adding navigation for $1900.

 

Okay, so lets summarize again.

The TSX "outdated" V6 technology has the following, compared to the 2011 328i:

More HP/liter
More LB/Ft of torque/liter
Faster 0-60 time (comparing autos)
Equivalent gas mileage

All of this for $5000 less, in a bigger, roomier car, that will depreciate less after 4 years.

If I were to go to my boss and say we should invest in this "superior technology" that costs more, is less efficient and will not hold its value as well over time he would laugh in my face or fire me.

The only thing the Bimmer has going for it, is snob appeal, free maintenance (though TSX's are relatively inexpensive to maintain) and RWD. If Bimmers are so awesome, why did you buy a TSX? Maybe you are hanging out in the wrong forum.

 

BMW 328 has better HDD navigation, better options to pick and chose, LED angel lights, more colors and interior all currently available on lot. not some future release date.
i dont think equal equiped has $5K difference. Just add leather $1500, $500 rear view camera (better camera with lines), $1900 navigation, $2K sport suspenion. You get car under $40k. deduct $2k worth of free maintainance. so there is hardly a $5k difference for comparably equiped.

your not understanding the point. I bought TSX two years ago. but if i have wait untill december to find out what car to buy for next 5 years. I will rather wait untill spring and see what comes out of 2012 BMW or 2012 A4 or 2012 IS or 2012 G25/37 or even 2012 TL MMC etc. i will not invest in car that lacks 6/7/8speed auto or LED DRL lights.

 

Have you ever driven a current 3 Series? With the Sport Package, it is simply in another universe as a driver's car compared to the TSX. It's much more about steering feel and impeccable dynamics than raw power, and BMW engines always feel stronger than their rated power anyway. Plus, the inline six sounds and feels much better than a four or V6.

The 3 Series does have disadvantages, chiefly higher price, run-flat tires, and lower reliability, which are largely why I bought a TSX. I'm happy with it, and it has outstanding chassic dynamics for FWD, but it ain't no Sport Package BMW.

 

When I said RWD was one thing it had going for it, I meant better handling dynamics/drivability. This still does not mean the TSX V6 is "outdated technology". Yes, I have driven a 328i and would agree they do drive better than the TSX, but not $5K+ better.

You could easily spend $2K or so on the TSX (springs/coilovers, bigger wheels/lower profile aggresive rubber) to dramatically improve handling and road feel/steering and still come out saving a few thousand compared to the Bimmer.

 

People, can we really just drop the case?
Why don't people who love Infiniti, go off, buy the Infiniti and be happy with it.
Why don't people who love Acura, go off, buy the Acura and be happy with it.
Why don't people who love BMW, go off, buy the BMW and be happy with it.
Why keep fighting for the non-sense, people choose their car based on their own personal reference, I like this feature doesn't mean you like it and vice versa. Some might need the navigation, some not. Some love the HID headlight, some could care less.

 

^ I agree, people will always find away to justify their purchase regardless.

 

the tsx v6 does 0-60 in 5.9

the a4 2.0t and 328 compare to the tsx i4, not v6. the v6 will destroy both those cars.

 

Fair enough. Actually, I think the TSX is darned close to the 328i when the latter has the base suspension, and the TSX might have better dynamics than the pig-like X-Drive 328i. Without RWD and the Sport Package, the 328i is still great, but lacks the superior feedback and razor sharp reflexes that garner all the glowing reviews in Car & Driver, etc.

 

Ironically, it's the RWD that makes me wince about the base 3-series and G-series cars. In Philly winters, I prefer (need?) FWD or AWD.

Hence my interest in the QUATTRO A4. Sitting in it, though, didn't feel as familiar/comfortable as sitting in the TSX. I'm not sure if that's just my personal preference or if there's something objectively more approachable about the TSX interior/ergonomics.

 

With good winter tires, traction control, and stability control, I think RWD would be fine in the winter in Philly. I grew up in Connecticut, and somehow survived with a RWD Buick in the snow up there.

But that's for me. My concern was with my wife driving a RWD car in the snow, because even with the tires and tech I'm not sure it matches the forgiving nature of FWD. (I could be wrong about that, but I was concerned.) And, after our snowy winter last year, I can tell you the TSX with the OEM Michelins is GREAT in the snow.

I agree with you on the TSX interior. I felt at home immediately.

 

Call me crazy, but I actually am not really into changing tires twice a year. I love good performance, but apparently not that much. :-\

But, even so, I'm kind of turned off by the stoic Bimmer interior. It feels hard and not inviting.

re: interior. I wonder if there is something about the Japanese that make their interiors feel more inviting/comfortable than Germans?

 

I know what you mean about tire changing. I didn't want to do it either, partly because storing an extra set is a pain in our Center City townhouse with its tiny garage. It got old quickly with my 2001 Saab, so after a couple of years I bought ultra-high performance all-seasons, which actually worked great. (Some Sumitomos got me through a brutal Midwestern blizzard, when many pickups and SUV's had spun out into the cornfields.) But I'd want real winter tires with RWD.

As for interiors, think about the countries' architecture, and I think you'll discern the roots of their interior design, e.g. dark and heavy stone castle v. light and airy zendo.