hcp

LOL! Man, that's a turbo-charged turtle

pbhak002

Turtle "yo man VTEC just kicked in"

kowloonsniperhk

I actually saw one of these a couple days ago. they are quick

live2hit01

only in florida would you see a turtle that can out run the po!

KillerG

definitely vtec.

Mr. NC

This thread has 20,xxx + views....yet no grille

ed_423

well, at least we got the fastest turtle and the slowest product in this thread.

VortexBlueTSX

That was one of the greatest videos I have ever seen hahah amazing! As far as grill goes, I want one, looks good! And for exhaust, it would be nice to have an ATLP one as they made a great one for the TL and who know swhat you guys could do for us....quads...would be nice

KillerG

marcus...get ALTP on the phone. tell em to make us a $400 axleback exhaust pliz

ed_423

on a more serious note, good thing i can do cash pick up on these. i wonder how ridiculous and frustrating it feels for people who had to preorder this.

VortexBlueTSX

Doesn't Marcus = ATLP now? didnt they buy ATLP....

KillerG

in that case, marcus, get yourself on the phone and get yourself to make us an exhaust setup. lets shoot for 2015

Mr. NC

You must be talking to me Ed......

ed_423

yes, its been a long ass time since we had an update on this. and hell, we dont want an update. we just want it done lol. getting REALLY impatient now....

icky2unk

Told you this guy runs a joke of a business. Hasn't even stopped in to explain his lack of product.

KillerG

Heeltoe's expected response:

VortexBlueTSX

Hahahah that's perfect! ^^^

tsxronald

He doesn't really care how long it takes. He is still going to make big money no matter what.

KillerG

or no money if the products never made

ed_423

lol well...if the product doesnt blow everyone out of the water then its gonna be quite disappointing, considering how long the time is to make it...

KillerG

The thing is, he should care. Consumer confidence is important when people are deciding where to shop. This multi-month debacle is embarrassing to say the least for heeltoe.

Truth be told, marcus probably doesnt give a flying fuck about us since we are still a niche market, and barely make up a fraction of his business, but he should still care.

So he makes a few grills, sells em at whatever profit, the numbers not important, but what about the few people who are waiting to actually see a product before they buy? What kind of confidence will they have in this product when (read: if) it launches?

Lets say it looks great, what if theres a slight fitment issue, or QA issue, or whatever that needs to be fixed, how confident are we that these problems will be rectified? Not confident at all. If there's a fitment issue will customers be expected to wait another 9 months (exaggerated, have not checked actual timetable) for a fix?

The last few pages of this thread have been a big joke, sure, i chuckle occasionally, and i post a video of a turtle here and there, but in reality im just disappointed for my homeboys who are patiently waiting.

Feel free to disregard my opinion if you want since i havent paid in advance for this, or take it for what its worth.

-KillerG

Moose Muscles

So I'm thinking of getting a 2g TSX...and I just read 9 pages worth of comments only to realize that there is no picture in page 9. Sorry to those who have been waiting since Jan or later.

Marcus:

tsxronald

CU2 it's more like CUNEVER...lol

Mr. NC

HAHAHAHAHA...I'd laugh then realize....oh wait I don't have that grille yet

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Just and FYI we started producing these last week. Should be shipping very soon to those who've paid.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Hey seriously...f- off. If anyone needs an update there are multiple ways of contacting us.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Embarrassing is right. But you are wrong about not caring. Truth be told, we have had a lot of extra business this year that frankly we were not planning on. The extra work we've had to put into day to day operations is staggering. 2011 to this point has been a real blur. Quite honestly it has been a lot more of a priority maintaining communications with our customers who place orders and have service concerns rather than make new parts. The new parts are important as well, but our mission includes top notch service, not fast product development. Hell, I only log in here EVERY FEW WEEKS. Anyone who has placed and order and asks us for updates in forums is simply asking in the wrong place. If anyone here really needs to email and ask how the grille is coming needs to goto heeltoeauto.com and do so.

You see, we take the business a lot more seriously than people think. I WILL NOT ship a product I feel is inferior or one that will cause a service problem in the future. You can talk shit you want now folks, but my main thing is that when you ultimately do get the part there is NOTHING to complain about. Indeed post-sales service is what we are known for at Heeltoe. Months of waiting now will get you years of good product use, service and support. It might seem reasonable to speculate about our general performance based on this item taking a long time to get right, but then again you have no idea what dealing with us is like until you've ordered from us.

Honestly, I am pretty disappointed in how long this has taken because I know under normal circumstances it would be done a lot faster. Given the fact that this item has taken so long I am sure there is some real hesitation on the part of some people here to trust us. The only way we can change this really is to finish and ship the most perfect grille we can. And I intend to do that as soon as possible.


Just to reiterate...the reasons this is taking such a long time are the following:
1- we had to remake a A grille out of an H one
2- we had to get the test car all lined up
3- we had to establish the market demand (which is still very limited...)
4- a mold needed to be made
5- the first part out of the mold needed to be test fit
6- the first part didn't fit perfect, so we needed to rework the production process
7- we needed to find a company to get the right grille material from, and then obtain the mesh
8- we needed to figure out the best method of trimming and shaping the grille
9- now we need to get mesh mounted onto the fiberglass in the best way possible
10- parts need to be made, packed and shipped


Maybe it doesn't seem like this should take that long, and at the end of the day it doesn't really. Between all the running around with the 4 different vendors touching this part, not including myself, there are about 2-3 months worth of real development time needed. Couple that with the fact that only fewer than 10 people every really showed interest in this part in the first place the demand was not particularly encouraging, and yea this thing goes on the back burner when we get busy.


So, to those more sensitive among you, it's ok...the world won't end and there are more important things to get uptight about. All I am concerned about is shipping a part that will put all this to rest, but I refuse to cut corners on it. You'll wait, and when you are done waiting, you'll be happy.

What else can I say?

718Tsx

Hey marcus, I've been interested in the grille for a long time now, ever since the grille was announced. I'm sure there's going to be a huge demand for it once a final product is produced. I'm sure many like me are very interested but don't want to invest until we have something that's final and able to be evaluated. The market is there, just gotta keep the updates coming to show that it's coming along.

KillerG

Marcus, thanks for responding to my post, im gonna hold you to this since i am one of the more sensitive ones </3

I would love (as would everyone else im positive) to see a great product born out of this

loner

What about those of us who are new to the TSX and didn't have a chance at the pre-order? Is this a limited run, or will you be offering these for sale beyond the pre-orders?

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Once these are shipping there won't be any big delays like this and we certainly have no intention of cutting off supply any time soon.

One other thing to mention...people don't realize that making the first part is the hardest. It is usually safest to make the first item about 2-3 times better than you want your production part to be. That's why we needed to go redo a bunch of stuff after making the test fit on the red car...the customer actually thought it was pretty good but I found there to be too much issue with the fitment.

Trust me. As annoying as the waiting is, it would be a lot worse getting a poor fitting part that you had to wait too long for.

5thTo2nd

I've followed this whole 9 page thread and all I can say is wow

As a business owner as soon as you start realizing you're busy and this will get put on the back burner, all you needed to do was simply inform the ones who've put their hard-earned cash down for a deposit so they're not left wondering when their grille will get made..that would have been the professional and decent thing to do.

Then goes on to call the ones putting the money down to fund the project sensitive??? Jeez

uhhh maybe sorry?

I've considered ordering from Heeltoe in the past and have even contacted him for quotes on parts but honestly the way you're handling this issue is really not cool. One things for sure I'll bet people who know how you handled this one will think twice about putting a deposit down to help fund future projects that may or may not get made eventually when you get around to taking it off the back burner.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Honestly that all sounds legit and it makes me sound really wrong here but consider the following:

1- First and foremost, making a new part like this is a LOT different than the normal price quote, order online, ship, email tracking, have a nice day business that you are talking about avoiding. Most people can really appreciate that. I really respect the fact you are holding me to a high standard but you gotta understand...personal dealings are what we do best. Coordinating the specialists working on this project is something I do well, but not best. If indeed you've contacted me in the past I hope you can say that experience was pleasant. If you don't like how we handle this one, I welcome the comment, but please only if you yourself actually have skin in the game (incidentally, do you? If so, you know contacting us directly works well. If not...I am not certain you have sure footing on which to antagonize).

2- If anyone is wondering what the latest news is they would be MUCH better off simply asking me as opposed to posting in a thread that I obviously am not able to follow. I already consider the forums a detractor from the replies and advice I give to people all day long, and when I see threads like this it really agitates me. I answer tons of emails every day...be one of those emails! Coming to the forum and posting is recreational for you guys, but for us it is marketing. When we are swamped we don't market as much. There is nothing really new about that, and nothing that should be considered offensive. And if I am not posting, I am not gone. I am working! Hit me up at work!

3- Sensitive....you are taking that comment out of context. In doing so you are being, well, overly sensitive to it. I was trying to be reassuring. But you can read it however you like I guess. I'd hate to lose a customer because of something silly like a sensitive comment. Yes, I did just say what you are waving at me was silly. Some people are more sensitive than others, and you are presuming to state that if someone who paid had a direct, legit complaint, that I would call them sensitive. I don't expect that people who you cite as putting money is are so sensitive because, well, they are all hanging in, not getting refunds. I think more truthfully the more sensitive ones here are the ones who have NOT put in a payment or deposit.

4- Sorry? Sorry for what? Sorry for it taking long? Well, I wish it was going faster as well. But am I sorry? No. I'd be sorry if I shipped a product that wasn't ready or make a bunch of promises I could not keep. Or if I gave up...then I would be sorry. All the time frames I've quoted have been in reasonable good faith but this project and all my time tables are all topsy turvy. So I am sorry it is what it is, but not about anything I've done. We operate with complete financial transparency here. We never even really deposited anyone's money into our active accounts. No, I have nothing to be sorry about and anyone can have it back whenever they want.

5- How I am handling this not being cool: Maybe it isn't to you. But it also isn't cool being accosted in forums where this stuff just festers, and where I am OBVIOUSLY not posting on a regular basis. I mean, come on, it was obvious I wasn't around, and IF you paid me money you got a receipt and a bunch of emails, all giving you means of contacting me. There was no need to screw around here chattering about lame heeltoe. I was working, and doing a damn good job. I stand behind my good principles and good practice of doing business. We have given refunds to all the people (only one person, actually) who have asked for them promptly without issue. We communicate well to the paying customers who ask us for updates and have questions. I think I am doing the best I can, and if I got a little attitude here I hope you can understand why. It is largely because, despite the fact that people hate businesses they are run by passionate people. When the heart and commitment of energy is outlaid, and times get tough, it is hard to get criticized. Most businesses fail because people can't take it. Instead of quitting, I get...sensitive and, God forbid, not cool. So sue me.



Folks this is a SMALL community with a SMALL demand associated with it. And I am a SMALL business. We can't be antsy about this stuff. Other such communities I have had great success doing projects for. And yea some of the larger projects take a year or more. Hell, it took me most of a year just to decide to make this part! It takes a long time when there isn't a lot of business to be had. If this was fast easy money some other larger company would be all over it already. Yet nobody else has stepped up. That should say something to you...be glad I know how to keep a business afloat, and that I have the particular neurosis that makes me want to cater to niche markets. The grill will come soon enough.


Closing comments: It amazes me how many people like to get stressed about projects like this and then start criticizing how I do things. Frankly, if you think you can do better, you are more then welcome to give it a shot. It's America, after all. I have already spent quite a lot of money on this grille project, not including the time involved, and I am not done yet. In the end I stand to make zero dollars on the first 10 grilles I sell, and a relatively small percentage thereafter. Any investor would walk from that deal. Yet we persevere. I am pretty significantly invested here. There is no way I can walk from it. I wanna get to the end as much as you so I can move the 10 and then get paid. Yes that is right...when was the last time you worked on something for 6+ months for free? Doing this shit is not easy I tell you. Consider that before you criticize.

Meanwhile, we get about 45-55 orders a week that all have the funds attached to them that help get things for this and other parts moving along. I gotta handle those orders, too, and I gotta do those first with greater priority and communication than with this one. So again before you get too critical, realize that we don't need to make this part. We do it because we want to, and you want us to. And when it is done, we will all be happy. If you are going to let a long development period and a little lack of posting about the progress stand in the way if doing business with us, that would be a real shame for us both. Because it is our repeat customer that will tell you Heeltoe is the #1 place to buy parts if you want good communication and good service. Maybe not the #1 place if you want something fast, cheap, or tossed together...but for service, yes definitely. If you are judging us by what happens in a forum, then you are proving my point that forums, while they seem to be the mecca for all that is 'your car'....it ain't. It is a place to chatter. We do business, not chat about doing business.

I am sure there will be some sort of retort to this post. If you are going to take what I am saying here and use it against me all I can say is, I can't defend myself infinitely. So, whatever. I'll get back to working on the grille, and the other stuff we are working on for the S2000s, Racingbrake packages, our new site, etc...

If you stuck in and read all this here is a treat for you. I just spoke with the fiberglass guy today and he has 3 grilles done and we should have the rest of the 10 by the weekend. The mesh has all been rough trimmed, but needs to be finished and coated (considering anodizing now). As soon as I can get the mesh mounting ironed out in a nice way we'll be DONE! (PS, we are going to be mounting in such a fashion that the mesh is easily removable for paint. It is going to take some time. But you will again thank me when you go to get your part painted).

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

yuk yuk

You know I wanted to make a TSX exhaust...I really did...but, I need convincing...Can we sell them? Another post for another day I guess.

09TSXTech

Marcus, can't wait for the final product. Your price is in line with the Modulo Sports Grille I got in Feb 2010, except it has H instead of the A.

Keep up the good work, I think the CU2 community would be pleased with the final product.

ed_423

in defend of marcus, he did promptly update me when i requested it on the heeltoe website.

these people, including me, are just anxiously waiting for the grille, as it is one of the most controversial part about our car and the grille could really be a game changer. while others who put in a deposit early on might worry about the project as it has been going on for a while. but enough bs and arguments, lets see the final product and hopefully it will blow EVERYONE out of the water.

live2hit01

This entire thread is mind numbing. Marcus thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail. I understand the complaints from both sides, they both have some validity to them. Us Aziners, especially the CU2'ers, do hold you in high regard and do expect top notch service, which might be why some got upset without hearing from you in a while. I just want to thank you for making a product specifically designed for the CU2, and I'm sure this grill won't be the last.

Ps. How many of you honestly expected an immediate response from Marcus to a forum thread? Also, some of you ARE being overly sensitive.....

Pss. Only 10 of these so highly demanded grills have been ordered.....

its rayden

i learned my lesson a long time ago (not from this forum), don't put down a deposit for a product that does not yet exist. ESPECIALLY if the vendor is relying on said deposit to fund the development and manufacturing of the product (not sure if this is the case, but that's just an important fact in my experience). because all you did was give the vendor an interest-free loan and i'm not that generous.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

A lot of people learn this lesson...and unfortunately it is one that puts us at odds with each other. We aren't relying on your funds to make the part. We are getting the deposit as somewhat of a "put your money where your mouth is" that there is indeed a promise to buy. One thing is for sure, whenever we don't take deposits, parts sit around. Example: JDP. I've not sold ONE lip or ONE spoiler. Has anyone bought these items? Not enough to even get close to paying for the molds I am sure. They took on the risk and got burned. It happened with the 04-05 TSX and JDP lip as well. And it basically happened with the FLP spoiler for the 04-08 TSX. In that sense, I have learned MY lesson. Assume SOME risk, but not all. If the market demands a product, they will step right up. If they don't they won't and the make/not to make decision is clear.

A lot of people view money in different ways as well. It's like JDM parts. There are a lot of people who understand that much of this hobby involves paying now, and getting what you paid for at some distant point in the future. You'll find that these are the people who end up being the envy of the boards more often than not. Of course, that cannot be everyone. And I can't say I am in total disagreement either, because I have a hard time not getting stuff right away as well.

I think the difference comes down to reputation of the place you are depositing with. Many people view heeltoe as something more than a vendor. So maybe that is why it works. Granted, this one is taking a whole lot longer than expected. I never made a grill before and this part really is pretty intricate.

KillerG

Hate to throw in another conversation mid conversation with all the grill stuff goin on, but talk to me about exhausts a little bit please

I think the biggest factor (obviously i guess) would be the cost. It seems like alot of people are willing to snap up intakes, but very few are sold on the ct-e box, mainly cause the price is double what you can buy an intake for

How much do you think it would cost, not for a full setup, but for an axleback piece or something, essentially just 2 universals and a little bit more piping (like the fox system)

I know we are talking in extreme hypotheticals, but since you have some experience in this area maybe you might have a vague idea. I speak of keeping costs down because i highly doubt we will see any gains from an exhaust system with our wittle motors, im thinking people will be mainly in this for sound and looks

And what would be a safe number of preorder for dev to start, 10, 15?

There really is no market for exhausts for us outside of custom jobs / fitting universals and ive only seen one guy do a uni so far and like 2 with custom exhausts so even though we got a small market i think you could hit the 10/15 mark

fujitsubo exhaust? fuck that, import costs
mugen exhaust? fuck that, its like 3g
fox exhaust? 1G for an axleback, fuck that
ct-e exhaust? vaporware.