After getting my tranny replaced a week and a half ago I went into debt to pay for the bill ($1695 CAD total)! Not happy about that, but definitely happy to have my car back. I missed it big time while i was looking for ways to scramble the cash together. Anyways, today I was on my way to work and something felt strange about my brakes. Soft, too soft, pedal dropped abnormally, but i double tapped and all good. Keeping in mind that my work is 48km away from my house, i honestly did not have a choice but to drive there...with a bad feeling. When i got off the highway, that was it, pedal went to the metal when i had to brake... I pushed it hard against the carpet and slowly stopped. Finally got to work. Turned the car off, turned it on... Same thing, checked the brake fluid, slightly under MIN. Next stop gas station, DOT 3. Nothing, Nothing, Nothing. Level is good, after driving for awhile, did not drop a bit, so it seems.

I don't know what the problem is, but im fucking frustrated, i love the car and spare no expense on it, i don't race it, i avoid every pot hole, 94 octane gas, royal purple oil, everything OEM etc, etc, but the car doesn't love me back. Ive finally said it, it's a piece of shit! I can't do anything about it.

If anyone knows what the problem with the brakes could be plz chime in! Im curious, and I want to know at least some possible causes before i bring it in to a mechanic on monday.

 

Might be the master cyl. failing. It could happen with any car you own. Any dash lights on?

 

very low master level indicates either low brake pads,,taking more fluid from the storage to move into their pistons... to keep system working,,
or there is an actual leak in system

when the pedal goes all the way to the floor, I suspect master cylinder as well
At that point adding fluid wont help

pull the wheels and inspect all brake pads

cars that dont get the brake fluid changed every few years have extra wear on critical rubber seals~

 

Pedal goes alllll the way down. I put in the brake fluid just to see if i had a line leak somewhere, since about a month a go my friend lifted the car and he told me that my brake lines are no good, he said i should change them before winter. After i put in a bit more brake fluid, the level did not drop, so im also thinking master cylinder as well. Is there a possibility that when im going to be taking it to the mechanic it won't brake at all? Right now, if i press it hard enough against the floor it stops. I also use the e brake, it helped me a lot.

 

....brake lines are no good...-? Metal lines corroded or otherwise damaged? Rubber lines rotted?

Sounds to me like you should have it towed rather than risk driving it again.

 

Yea the lines are rusted, he said that I should be looking into to that within a month max 2 if i can't do it asap. Well, a month passed and I got a problem. Tomorrow, ill make a night drive to the shop and leave the car there. I contacted my mech, he told me there is an array of possibilities, he told me that it might not be the master cylinder per se. We'l see! Ill post up the results.

 

rusted metal lines mean leak and loss of braking abilty
Not someting you hear every day--once on here that I know of this year

TOW the car- if you drive it and crash, the insurance will certainly track down this thread and blame you for operating a defective vehicle--no insurance!

 

^I know can you believe it, ive never heard of that as well. You should see the underbody, it's clean, no rust anywhere but these damn brake lines. And yea I know about the insurance, i have to be careful. Maayybe ill go with the tow.

 

you persoanlly saw the rusted line parts and can tell they need replacement?
I ask as only 1 ziner has reported this problem = that I know of

reading first post again- double tap to pedal brought it back, that points to master cylinder

If no fluid seen on wheels/inner side, or around the caliper anywhere--thats a good sign

 

ever change your brake fluid
supposed to start at year 3 of cars life then every year after that
most dont know it or dont believe,,those who have changed the fluid and seen its condition are shocked it still worked at all

go 5-7 8 years on that fluid and guess what happens to the other brake parts
wiki hygroscopic for explanation

 

thanks 01tl4tl, ill check it out. To be honest I don`t think that ive checked or changed brake fluid since I bought the car about 18 months ago. But my mech saw the fluid about 8 months ago when i was replacing the rear calipers. He did not mention anything to me, so i guess it was fine. When i double tap the brake pedal nothing happens, rather it goes to the carpet as well. I did not see any fluids on my wheels and did not see any leaks on my driveway. Yesterday, my mech asked my the same question about double tapping the brake, when i told him that it does not go stiff, he said that most likely its not the master cylinder. (At least thats what i think he said) Ill be dropping off the car either today or tomorrow, hopefully its just the brake lines.

 

when you replaced the rear calipers, the brake fluid was replaced with that

sounds like a few problems going on--get pics!

 

Hmm, okay ill take your word for it. I probably just don`t remember whether he did or not.

And ill take a few pics when the car will be lifted, right now it`s in my garage and there is not enough light to capture anything. I checked my front brake pads, they seem to be in need of a change. Rears pads look literally brand new. But regardless, the fronts being worn out would not make my pedal go down like that out of nowhere. Im hoping for the best but preparing for the worst anyway.

 

when you replace calipers you have to bleed the brake fluid system to get fluid to the new calipers and get air bubbles out of them
thats called a bleed/flush and you SHOULD do all the wheels until clean new fluid comes out the bleeder nipple

note special order of bleeding for TL is different than older cars- due to ABS plumbing
its driver front then clockwise around car
LF RF RR LR
they may have skipped the fronts but that would be stupid and reckless

 

I didnt know about that, ill ask him tomorrow. I dropped the car off today, 16km drive with just an e brake and engine braking of course, 5 o`clock traffic(which actually helped) Phew!!! Ill get the results tomorrow.

 

wonder what that did to the park brake shoes
its not an emergency brake--its for parking

 

While watching your white knuckles.

 

Not really sure what that is a reference to, but okay.

Anyways, got word back from my mechanic. He said that both brake lines coming from the front of the car all the way to the back are done, he said he doesn`t know how i got to his shop. He mentioned that the fuel line is in desperate need of a change along with the short brake line`s going to the calipers. I told him to change everything, and most likely will get the car back today.

 

Well you said before you used engine braking & the e-brake (in 5PM traffic) just to make it there, & in the above post your mech. doesn't know how you made it- Sounds like a white knuckle experience to me-

 

white knuckle means gripping the steering wheel soooo tightly as to cause the blood to flee from your fingers!!
as you fear for at least the lives of those around you-if not yourself

 

Oh true, I guess I just did not get that at the moment, my bad. Latest news, break lines changed from bottom of the engine all the way to the gas tank, caliper lines changed as well. While he was at it, he also changed the fuel line and the other one, which goes from the charcoal box... I forgot what it`s called! Anyways, he changed everything and did a clean job too, im not surprised... This guy is a ridiculous gear head... Ill post up pics of his garage and the cars that are there, rarest vehicles you will find in north America. Auctions in Europe and Japan, work put in= sale in North America. I love going to his garage in other words.

I just wanted to address something! We bled each caliper, I drove out, brakes sunk. Bled them again, they did not sink as fast, bled them a third time, still sinking. Though it was progressively getting better, i am still worried. We couldn`t finish the job today, but hopefully everything is good tomorrow. My mech told me not to worry, he said it`s completely fine and that the system needs to get rid of all the air. But I want to get some of your opinions as well. What happens is, when i hit the pedal fast, it reacts fast much like it should. However, the pedal sinks after a second or two. Does not sink to the carpet level, but close. Do you guys know what is going on? Im shiting bricks that there is another problem, master cylinder?!?! I don`t know but we bled the rear calipers maybe 4-5 times a piece. Thats the part that worries me.

 

with what I am guessing is rust thru on those lines,,
you may have been able to punch a hole in the floor and use the Flinstones brakes for another 5 miles

 

Yea, I was guessing on what that expression meant. But it described my situation just right.

 

You should have seen them!!! He took one and snapped it with middle and index fingers lol. Scary stuff!! My underbody is quite clean btw, I dont know how the lines got so damn rusty.

 

aha! smart as he is he doesnt know the TL tricks~
per shop manual:
after brake lines have been open and off like yours were, air gets in!
you MUST do 2, 45 mph to full stop- ABS active stops

that means find water or gravel or something to drive one side of the car thru so wheel speed under braking will differ side to side
Swerving quickly simulating accident ahead quick lane change while under full braking works too--thats what abs was built for- full braking with full swerve and not lose control = faster wheel gets brakes applied on and off rapidly

You need to feel the pedal pulse very rapidly under your foot to know abs is active

once stopped, do a 2nd accellerate to 45mph and full effort/ both feet standing on the pedal to full stop

If 2nd test had firmer pedal, there was air trapped inside the ABS controller (thats why it wouldnt bleed out normal)
now its been moved out and to the calipers- usually bubbles found in the lf-driver front
but do the entire bleed again to be safe
driver front then clockwise around the car
lf rf rr lr ONLY,,dont care what your tech says--thats the TL order

rebleed after test and should fix it--retest drive abs stops--good? enjoy!

normal driving will not fix your air issue and tech should not let you drive it this way needing to double pump or losing pressure--thats worse than your last trip there!
at least then you knew you had no brakes!

 

you may have a master cyl prob based on the rest of the system parts
how ugly was the old fluid?

 

did you participate or see the order used?

 

That was the perfect time to install ss brake lines- or did he put rubber ones back on?

 

01tl4tl I dont know what the hell I would do without you. Well, I took the car to him again, we bled the calipers a few more rounds. Nothing!!! We then proceeded to the ABS module, he looked for a bleeder on the module but nothing. Later proceeded to unscrew the lines from the module while pumping brakes, he unscrewed them a tiiiiiiny bit so only air would come out if anything. Then moved to the top left side of the engine with the same procedure. Prior to me going there, I did what you told me to do, put the abs to work. After all said and done, we bled the calipers 1 more time. My brakes are better, but still sinking much lower than they should! My mech told me that we need to repeat the process again for it to be good, so next time I come ill change the front brake pads and continue bleeding the calips.

As for the ss lines, he did change them. The old brake fluid was fresh, I saw it he saw it, so no problems with that. One thing that we noticed is that when I gave the first pump on the brake the pedal would sink and a swoosh sound would come out of the abs unit. I guess thats it, hopefully it's just air still trapped in there.

 

Do you guys have any other ideas on how I can get the air out of the braking system for good?

 

your guy sucks

if you did the ABS test as directed before anything else:
you moved the air out of the ABS controller
there was no need for any of the bs you guys did
Only what I said and was giving you direct from the shop book - there is no abs reset switch- no special nothing--dont open the abs lines or now you introduced air in the system!!~!!!

2 ABS ACTIVE- pedal PULSING under your foot pushed full force against the pedal stops!!!!
from 45 mph to stopped-as soon as stopped, accellerate to 45 and repeat
go back to shop
rebleed using TL special order: driver front then clockwise around the car= LF RF RR LR = DONE!

YOU have a bad master cylinder is why it wont get better
Every time you push the pedal- it brings air in the system,
or is bypassing internally
-depending if you still get air bubbles or just have weak pedal

 

are you using a 2 person bleeding method:
with pumping the pedal 3-5 times and holding it pushed against the pressure-
then tech opens valve and fluid+air bubbles goes out- closes valve and you pump the pedal again,
pressure builds (moving air thru line) hold,open,close, repeat

If so: Its CRITICAL you DO NOT push the pedal beyond 3/4 travel to floor when pushing it with valve open,,or on first pumps each time to rebuild pressure
When tech opens bleeder the pedal is headed to the floor- trust me~
thats your job as the pedal pusher! to push!

IF the pedal is pushed to the floor- especially repeated times, it CAN damage the o-ring seal on the master cyl rod- its range of travel in its last 7 years of use has been a very limited area,,the part of the cylinder bore is not as smooth in the area not made for normal operational travel
All that equals a torn oring and pressure leaks right past it= weak to no brakes

to avoid yourself, or having helper mess up:
place a small block of 2x4 wood under the brake pedal arm inside car- that will limit it to the correct amount and save you 100 dollar mistake
NOTE remove wood block from under pedal before starting engine and driving off!!!!!

 

NOTE SS lines require the use of fluid rated DOT 4 or DOT 5.1 thats five point one (for racers)

NOT dot3 as may have been standard or allowed before

and never 5.0 thats got silicones that diagree with our system

 

Yea I did the ABS test, went back to him right after. I didnt do it on gravel because 1 i could not find any, 2 didnt really want to do that because I would have damaged the paint. I know what you mean by pedal vibrating really hard, but I for some reason was not able to simulate that.

DOT 4 was used, I asked him why, he told me that it's whats needed. I was a bit worried but it's good that you mentioned it.

Interims of pedal being pushed to the floor, I didn't use a small block of wood or anything like that. Most cases the pedal would not go down to the floor either way. Only on the rear left caliper would it go down to the floor?!?!

It's air in the system for sure. Because when you were explaining the ABS test, i realized that when i brake hard (first pump) the brakes are not applying pressure equally, which slightly turns the car's direction. Sorry I don't know how to explain it better, but I definitely feel that slight imbalance. For now I am happy to at least be able to drive my car. On first pump, yea the pedal goes in 75% but it's much better than what I had when I could not brake for shit. Second pump is firm, and third is bimmer stiff. Like I said ill be going to his shop again mid next week, ill do my best to work the ABS hard, and then bleed calips and change front pads. (mine are worn!) Hopefully then my problem will be finally taken care of.

 

I think the reason why I could not do the ABS test properly is because I applied pressure fast (the pedal does NOT sink fast when I apply quick pressure). Which means that my that my pedal went to the floor late, maybe at 20mph. Next time ill hit it smooth and hope to get it to the floor quicker. Maybe that will help. If you have any suggestions on the method that should be used, let me know.

 

give it 2 quick pumps and STAND on the pedal with both feet- thats what it takes to activate the abs,,swerve as if a car stopped in front of you--while under max effort braking

you know when its really working and until thats occured you are wasting time bleeding brakes with air trapped in a place that can only get out by using it!!

find some water on street,,gravel is ok-dirt,,-not going to ruin paint job- car stops fast!
try from 45 as directed
pedal should never reach floor!!!!!

if one caliper seemed to let pedal reach floor- tech wasnt as quick with the close on that one,
and failed to instruct pumper to stop pushing at 3/4 travel and hold it there as tech closes valve

I maintain if you actually DO the abs clearing and it still takes 2-3 pumps after rebleed of all--your symptoms totally point to a master cyl failure
replace it and all will be well

 

ABS is called Stomp And Steer by the guys who made it
You should be able to exert a panic!! ,,,stomp on brake pedal as if your life depended on not hitting the semi truck in front of you,,,, brake effort
and turn the wheel to change a complete lane over, and back to your lane,,
all under full braking and max swerve

the system counts revolutions of each wheel and applies the faster wheels caliper on and off super fast- to slow that wheel and gain traction

As you swerve it changes load factors and wheel speed- really making the abs do its job