cresus

Hi, please forgive the lack of information in this post. I'm posting this because my parents have been paying people lots of money to track down a problem (starter, alternator, etc...) and the mechanic doesn't seem to have ever actually diagnosed and is just throwing parts at it.

The car fails sporadically fails to start (will not turn over). There doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason for when it decides to do this. I know the first thing that will be mentioned is the ignition switch. This may or may not be the case, but the car has never exhibited the dying while driving problem that seems to be a primary symptom of the ignition switch.

Today when the car failed to turn over, my mom tried turning on the headlights (no lights) and it also has no other lights on on the dash (so not security disable problem). I don't recall if the TL headlights are only on with the ignition on but if so that would seem to indicate a failing ignition switch that hasn't yet started failing during operation. Another point to note: when she went to check on the lights she left the key in the on position (dash lights off). When she came back after verifying the headlights were totally off (and not dim), the dash lights were on and the car started up.

I'm searching for wiring diagrams to try and rule things out but I've not had much luck digging one up yet. If anyone has experienced this issue and can either confirm or deny, it would be very helpful.

Thanks!

01tl4tl

switch can do things beside die while driving,,;like yours is doing

headlights are seperate from everything else- will turn ON with no key in ignition

Key to ON should have all dash warning lights on and the green key symbol if the correct key is in the ignition

try wiggling key --anything??

cresus

Yeah, that's what I figured regarding the headlights (and the reason I had them check that). That is what makes me think it's not the ignition switch since the headlights are independent of the key position. I'll check about the key wiggling next time it happens.

Any other thoughts?

3.2TLc

As 01tl4tl previously stated.....separate problems. Work on one first. The ignition switch is a known troublespot for the '99 models. The switch is'nt that expensive and is a fairly simple DIY to replace.

You should try another different key.....! The immobilizer or interlock system may be acting funky.
Try starting in neutral with the brake pedal depressed.

Are any of the lights working at all ? Check the relays and fuses. Is there an aftermarket alarm installed on the car ? May have a wiring short or loose connection.

cresus

Maybe I didn't make this clear. Everything works fine most of the time. This is a sporadic problem and when the car won't start, lights also don't work. When the car will start, the lights also work. Basically, when the car won't start, nothing at all seems to work. Key fobs don't work, lights are all off, headlights won't work, etc...So I think they have to be related...

Looking at the wiring diagrams (at least the one I have for the 2002 TL) it looks like everything is controlled by the multiplex unit (including headlight relays).

Speaking of short, one thing my dad told me yesterday was that he disconnected the GPS wires a while back because it had failed. I'm not sure if a short from those wires could do this but I figured I'd throw it out there.

01tl4tl

what year TL is this?

cresus

'99

TLer trash

The fact that you don't have headlights when this happens, would lead me away from the ignition switch. I'd look hard at the battery connections and the ground connections, especially the uninsulated end of the negative cable at the trans/engine. If in doubt, clean the battery terminals; they can look good and have corrosion where you can't see it until you disconnect it. You could also have an intermittent open circuit in the battery itself. Have your radio code handy if you do the terminals.

3.2TLc

Starting at the battery, check wiring connections and grounds. Inspect the underhood and driver's interior relay/fuse boxes, following your wiring schematic to locate related points.

Perhaps a relay is malfunctioning causing the intermittent issues. If both problems happen the same time......search for the common shared electrical source which may be at fault.

cresus

Update:

I had my dad checking voltages to see what was happening (I suspected when the problem occurred we could see where low voltage was occuring that was preventing relays from actuating). He put a voltmeter across the battery and saw only 4-6V. Disconnecting the battery cable allowed it to go back up to 12V. The thing about this that is stumping me to some extent is there's no spark that I would expect with a short strong enough to drop the battery voltage that much.

After that I had him pull the battery fuse in the under hood fuse box to make sure it wasn't a battery cable issue. Pulling the fuse made voltage go back to 12V. Pulling fuses 1 by 1 found that the 40A "battery, acc" fuse had the same effect. I'm having trouble locating that fuse in the wiring diagrams but I suspect that it is one of several that feed the interior fuse boxes. Can anyone confirm that? Can anyone explain to me how a fused circuit could draw enough to drop the measured voltage across the battery? I'm quite confused...before he could keep trying to locate the problem circuit the car started working again. Always a next time.

TLer trash

You need a battery. If it were in good shape, it would take well over 500 amps to pull the voltage that low, and there would definitely be a spark.

cresus

I would agree except battery tested ok under load (hence why I said measured voltage as it seems like something else was going on). And if the battery were a problem (or as big of one as the above voltage under tiny load would indicate), it would never be able to start the car as it's voltage would drop so low under load that it wouldn't even turn over. When he was doing this, at one point he went back out to check some more and touched the multimeter leads to the battery (key was in the ignition) and as soon as the leads touched there was a spark and everything came back to life (and car started up fine).

I feel like I'd be a little better at tracking down what's going on if I were there in person but he's 1000 miles away.

TLer trash

Then it's probably an intermittent open circuit in the battery. Either a loose post or bad connection inside the battery, like one of the lead cell bridges [connectors]. Be careful, a cracked cell connector combined with low electrolyte is an explosion waiting to happen. Guess how I know!

3.2TLc

Hey Cresus, I agree with Tler trash...... have the electrical charging/starting system professionally load tested and check for scavenger drain.

The battery is the simplest place to start, then the alternator and starter. But you must assure that all connections and grounds are 100%. Not rocket science !

parts guy

I'm currently going through a similar situation on my '99.

I replaced the topside battery connections and it started fine for 3 weeks, now it is stranded in my church parking lot. I went at lunch to pull the starter, and just as I pulled it out, I noticed that the bottom side (ground to engine) connection on the ground cable appears to be missing. There is nothing down there but frayed wire, and it is completely loose. I'm not sure if it is connected to something I unbolted to remove the starter (don't think so), but I suspect that the cable pulls out of the lower ground connector on these over time. I see a few videos online showing frayed lower cables.

Your dad's car may have a similar issue. Check this before spending a boat load of money!

Buzz Smith

Hi...I'm the Dad with the '99 issues.

I'm getting the car back in a few days as a friend of ours works for an Advance and was kind enough to take a look for hardly any $$.

Because it's intermittent, diagnosis has been an issue. He at first thought that it was the battery terminal covers that someone had put on (not allowing the positive cable to really make a tight connection with the terminal).

He drove it for a few days and then last night as soon as he turned on the headlights, the whole electrical system goes crazy. Idiot lights dim, gauges drop to zero, etc. Ended up completely dying and he had to be towed 3 blocks to his home!

This first began about 2 years ago with the exact same symptoms. Fix then was...(some of these might not be relevant)

1. Replace alternator
2. New battery
3. Replace Cat converter and O2 sensor
4. (I'm pretty sure a computer reset was involved, as well.)
5. I keep pretty good records, but I probably omitted a few.

The car has been running fine since then (September 2010) until just about 3 weeks ago when this anomaly reoccurred.

Probably coincidental (I'm grasping at any straw), but just prior to this recent "power outage" I had the motor mounts replaced and the rack and pinion as we were also having power steering issues.

Perhaps the "manhandling" of the engine to install the mounts triggered this. I don't know, but 3 days later I had to also replace the radiator which MAY have been damaged during the motor mount install.

Then, when it began showing the sporadic electrical systems issue, the alternator was once again replaced.

Ran fine for about 2 weeks and then died on me (in rush hour!) in the left turn lane of a busy freeway intersection. Fortunately, a wrecker driver (for free ) loaned me his jump box and it started right up but I struggled home. Top speed was maybe 10 mph.

The only simple things left to try (I think) is a brand new fresh battery and probably a new positive cable to the starter and engine fuse box.

But, I'm wide open to any and all suggestions before I take it to one more very trustworthy mechanic to check every circuit for shorts. More $$.

When the car runs, it still runs really well and is still very comfortable, especially considering that it's pushing 14 years old.

If I could, I'd buy another Acura, but now is not the time.

Thanks for these and future responses!

Buzzy

Buzz Smith

Forgot to mention.

When the car did fire up in the driveway when the multimeter leads just touched the battery, I now have no first gear and the D4 light is flashing.

This, too, happened about 2 years ago and involved some tranny repair. Solenoid(s), I believe.

And again, there has been no issue with the tranny for the past 2 years (other than the obvious fact that the '99 has a documented lousy transmission).

TLer trash

When you measured the 4 - 6 volts were both of your leads connrcted to the battery posts, or were they connected to the cable ends. If they were connected to the battery and it dropped that much under load, it's the battery. It may be intermittent, but it's still the battery. If you were measuring at the cable ends, it still could be a bad connection between the cable end and the battery. Even if only one lead is connected to a cable end. The fact that you're measuring that low voltage at the battery means you don't have to go any further than the battery or cable ends. You have to get 12.6V. at the cable ends before you proceed. [This will drop to 10V or so during cranking][Only if it's actually cranking]

Buzz Smith

I was touching the actual terminals of the battery with the leads. I'm sure I also experimented with touching the exposed wire of the cable, but for the most part contact was with the actual terminal of the battery.

So, it's apparently possible and, perhaps likely, that a battery can be intermittent?

One more edit: When I removed the negative cable right after the battery was showing about 4V, the multimeter then immediately jumped to showing 12V with the negative cable removed as Cresus mentioned earlier in the thread. ???

OK, 2 edits...when I got the 4V reading with the battery cables in place, nothing was on. No key in the ignition, nada. Just a simple check of the battery voltage.

3.2TLc

Check every last ground that you can locate. An electrical schematic would be helpful !

Buzz Smith

Just now got a text from the friend that works at Advance.

He said that he did, indeed, try a new battery and that the cables appear to be making good contact with the starter and the internal fuse box.

I guess it will be going to the other mechanic soon (or I'll wait until my son comes home for the Holidays!)

Thanks.

Another text that just came in from him..."Will run good until you turn the lights on".

"Damn it. Jim! I'm a musician, not a mechanic!"

3.2TLc

Yeah, hey you gave it your best shot !
I hate electrical gremlins, as they can be very trying even for the pros.
My guess is that something within the headlight circuit is the culprit. Maybe moisture has gotten inside the lamp assemblies and has created poor connections ? Just a guess !

parts guy

An update on mine that may help you out. My ground cable from the negative terminal to the rad support body ground was good, but the second ground connector down low at the transmission was broken off. Check that - guess what it is in close proximity to? engine mount, rad/cooling fans etc. If it was in poor shape, any movement at all could lead to an intermittent ground condition.

I had a local auto electric repair shop make me a new ground cable for $8 including the connectors on the end. Pretty cheap.

TLer trash

I take it that the no cranking problem has not recurred, and you're now dealing with a running/driveability problem?

Buzz Smith

Don't know for sure. Picking it up tomorrow. I definitely won't be doing any long distance trips, just neighborhood errands and I may pick up and charge a jump box for a little added security.

Thanks...

Buzzy

TLer trash

It's even more fun to make your own from obscenely large welding cable, [color coded red and black], audio grade battery terminals, and copper lugs that would serve well on a large diesel, or I imagine, on a nuclear submarine.

3.2TLc

R U gittin any codes ? "CEL" on ?
P1297 or P1298 would indicate a problem within the ELD circuit. (Electronic Load Detector)
This is located within the underhood relay box.

Buzz Smith

Are you referring to this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-2003-AC...p2047675.l2557

If so (pardon my "noviceness"), I don't see an ELD reference.

Thanks.

Checking on the error code(s), too. I think that there was just one showing and it was transmission related.

Buzz Smith

Error code was P1753.

3.2TLc

Hey Buzz, it appears as though the code P1753 is associated with the tranny. "A problem within the lock-up control solenoid valve circuit". Check #6 (15a) fuse located in the driver's side lower fuse panel. Could be a bad ground or perhaps the solenoid is mal-functioning. Try removing and cleaning that solenoid. A tranny fluid drain and fill using only Honda fluid, along with replacing the filter may help if it's been awhile.

Buzz Smith

Wow.

I can't believe 1 little fuse restored the first gear of the tranny!

I'm not sure that this is my ultimate fix for the electrical system issues, but it's certainly a start and it did resolve the flashing D4 and I now have automatic first gear.

(I was able to manually get it by putting the shift lever in D1.)

MUCH appreciated!

Buzzy

3.2TLc

Hey Buzz, just a reminder.....fuses are there for a reason. Chances are that the underlying issue is still lurking in the shadows. Those pesky 'lil gremlins will come back out ! If you have access to an electrical diagram showing the circuit which that fuse protects, it'll lead you closer to the real problem.

My guess would be something is shorting within the circuit, maybe investigate that lock up control solenoid valve. Try cleaning it and check the connector.

Buzz Smith

Yes, I know!

Pretty sure we are taking it down to Texas City (near Houston) next weekend for wife's brother to take a look at it. It's a virtual family of mechanics dating back at least a generation or two.

I will drive it gingerly about the neighborhood.

Buzzy

3.2TLc

Hey Buzz, what's happening with the TL issues that you were having before ?

Buzz Smith

Oops! Just now saw this.

Right now, it's running just fine and really nothing was done.

It just started acting "normal".

I did reconnect the "defunct" GPS and that's all that I changed, but I don't think that that really fixed it. Coincidental, probably.

Thanks for asking...

Buzzy

Buzz Smith

A very belated update...

Turns out that I have a Honda certified niece that came by a few months ago and discovered that the top of the engine oil leak was fouling the alternator and intermittently shorting it out, hence the electrical issues. (I'm simplifying a bit.)

She carefully (and quite efficiently) repaired the oil leak and then installed a new alternator. And cleaned everything in the engine compartment!

That was about 3 months ago.

3.2TLc

Hey....thanks for the belated update.
Stuff like this really helps other to figure out a similar problem.

So, everything else is operating normally, and the car has been good to ya ?
Nice to have a niece in your back pocket !!!

TLer trash

Thanks for the update; too many of these threads end with no answers.