1995 dc4

hey im thinking about getting a 2003 TLS, and like i was wondering if its possible get put 07 TLS cams in it because the lobes are probly bigger, and if not, is there any cams u could get?

fsttyms1

No and no

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

With a TLS, there is no other OEM camshaft you can buy that will either fit or provide any performance gain. And no one makes an aftermarket one for this car. You're only option is to have someone make a custom grind.

corpsdawg

A stroker 3.5 would probably be the best route if you're wanting to stay NA.

fsttyms1

But you arent getting different cams.

JDM Inspired

lol.....i really wish a group of people would actully develop some parts for our TLs race wise......internals and other things, but then again we have our nice and smooth sailing luxary ride.....

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

It's been offered. Problem is when people hear the cost for both the camshaft and an a/f tuner as well as the cost to have it installed and tuned, most people run away.

It's definitely one of the things to do when you've done all the bolt-on mods.

corpsdawg

True, but i'm guessing this guy wants to stay NA so the stroker would be the best way to make power

JDM Inspired

hmmm that wont chase me away that would just sink me deeper into that investment....sounds pretty good any more info on that camshaft and a/f tuner??

fsttyms1

No. No one was willing to drop 700+ on a set of cams )plus install and dyno) to see "IF" there was a gain. There was a member that was going to to see but i havent heard any thing. I also was going to but at this time i just plain dont have the time To drive a few hrs to the nearest dyno have it dynoed spend 4+ hrs swapping cams and having it redynoed. If i can and the offer still stands at teh end of aug i will.(that and if $ allows) but the other problem lies in my car isnt stock any more and really wont give a good base line as having the manual trans in i put considerable amount more power to the wheels (that and im jonesin to put the 3.5 and SC together.

Also do your homework and exhaust every thing else first. There are plenty other things you can do to add power that you would probably like more.

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

i think that P2R said that he had cams in thier CL, but no one wanted the wast the money on them so they didnt produce them, for the right price and if someone makes them im in.

corpsdawg

Honestly, with out the supercharger how much gain could a stock engine (J32a2) see? Would the gains be more if the engine had all possible bolt ons? what about a 3.5 stroker?

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

but after you get all the bolt ons you could either do a 3.5 coversion which might be a bit pricy if u dont know what your doing and have to have a shop do it for you, or FI which is a bit pricy.

TCM 01 CL-S

He doesn't have them in his CL as far as I know of, although he does have the specs to make them. If I remember correctly from what he told me, he also can make several other related engine parts for maximum benefit . If you are willing to spend the cash, hit them up.

corpsdawg

And this is the great conundrum of car modding lol.

Edward'TLS

Tuning a new cam profile is very tricky. Very often with a new cam you can get some increase in power in some particular rpm bands, but lose more power in the rest.

paul_huryk

As a general rule, changing cams on a highly efficient, high revving OHC motor is pretty much a waste of effort.

Don't get me wrong, you might pick up 10 or 15hp, but you won't pick up 30 or 50 if you had a Ford 302, Chevy 350, or LS1 under the hood - those engines respond very well. On the other hand, the Ford modular - a stout 4.6L does not have many cam options (but there are a few).

fsttyms1

Dont forget to add the money for a stand alone or good piggy back to tune it to optimize them and plenty dyno time doing so.

TCM 01 CL-S

Very true.

tiblanc_lebrun

I have j32a3 camshaft in my j32a1 engine, you just have to make shim and make mod to the bolt and pulley. I have 2006 tl-p camshaft because I bought a j32a3 engine for 250$ and I instal all thing good from this engine to my j32a1

Edward'TLS

Any dyno plot of your mods ?

tiblanc_lebrun

no sorry but this summer I think I will make one

sinfulj32

do you have pics? i was sure that the j32a3 cams were shorter than ours

tiblanc_lebrun

Yes, I know that is shorter then the j32a1 or j32a2 is like 6 or 7 mm shorter. Is why I have to make shims (like washer) and I mod the bolt/washer for make sure that the key on the pulley doesnt break ... I dont have pic of that soory I will check if I can take one

adamlee05

Yes you can use the 07 TL-S cam in a TL/TL-S. You need a precision machined spacer made for the front of the camshaft as their front ends are slightly shorter. The nose of the camshaft has to be ground a slight bit as well, but it works and the machine work is simple and shouldn't cost very much at all.

The intake/exhaust lobes are the same as ours, the VTEC intake lobe is also the same height as the TL-S/CL-S cams we have, but with a longer duration. If you already have a Type-S it wouldn't help that much, but if you had Premium model and didn't mind spending a little at a machine shop, its the best cam you can get.

tiblanc_lebrun

I know all of you said is already installed in my car.. thanks for the info

sinfulj32

does anyone know the difference in duration?

sinfulj32

and has anyone successfully regrinded their cams?

It's Clutch

iTrader: (6)

then we'd be the new ricers (civics)

Edward'TLS

The Type-S cam has to work together with the Type-S PCM to reap any real benefit to increased engine power. Cam lobe profile and engine timings have to be matched.

Mixing Type-S cam with non-S PCM may not increase much hp.

fsttyms1

stuff like this NEEDS to be tuned to take advantage of it. Simply bolting it on doesnt do it.

adamlee05

It's been done plenty of times on the J30s to show significant gains. So in reality, it does.

Cam lobe profile and engine timing having to be matched makes no sense in this case since the timing on all the cams mentioned are the exact same in relation to TDC and the timing key. The lobes on the J30's/J32's all have the same intake/exhaust lobes, the only difference is VTEC duration and lift. We aren't talking a completely new cam altogether, so the ECU can handle the VTEC aspect of it. Though it might not take 100% advantage of it where the car they came from would due to the ECU being designed for it, it still compensates just fine by adjusting the STFT and our ECU's don't hesitate to advance the timing when needed, which is why the Accords have such great gains on said cams. All thats being effected is intake charge during VTEC. Just as adding a CAI changes the amount of charge on EVERY intake stroke, the ECU handles it.


For once Kris I disagree with you
It does, just as intake and exhaust mods done here every day do. Almost no mod will be 100% taken advantage of without tuning, but how many of us here has tuned their car after such mods? Almost nobody if any, yet the gains are there.

People need to quit thinking a tune is required for gains to exist, its not. Our ECU's are decently flexible, you just don't get the full benefit. I forget who, but someone on here put down something like 256whp on an auto type-s with simple bolt ons, no tune, and a dynograph for proof.

Just throwing this out there, though some people are bound to disagree as is natural. I've said all i'm gonna say

Edward'TLS

Done plenty of times on a J30 doesn't necessary apply to a J32. The J30 and J32 are using different timing mappings in their respective PCM's.

One important thing. The Honda PCM is pretty "dumb" in a sense. It can't sense the cam lobe profile of the cam it is running on. Basically, the PCM takes reading from the intake air temp sensor, air flow sensor, camshaft position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, throttle position sensor, knock sensor, (exhaust) oxygen sensor, water temp sensor, etc., and generates fuel injection pulses and ignition timing firing pulses, using the factory pre-programmed timing maps embedded inside the PCM. There is no way that the factory PCM can "sense" the new cam profile and adjust anything meaningful. The factory pre-programmed timing maps are created to match only the OEM camshaft.

Swapping a high flow intake is a completely different story since the extra intake air flow will be detected by the mass air flow sensor located inside the intake manifold. Upon detecting more intake air flow, the factory PCM will once again utilizing the pre-programmed timing maps, extracting the timing data for the increased flow rate condition, thereby advancing the ignition timing and increasing the injection pulse width for more engine power output.

tiblanc_lebrun

All camshaft of j series engine have the same cam timming like valve is fully open or fully close in the same timming. the only difference is the duration and the lift of the lob . Yes the ecu doesnt know how map correction to do with the new cam so it use is preprogramed map. with the use of my wideband o2 and my vafc2 and remap the ecu. I know the best is to do this on teh dyno but I will make one in summer.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^ It's good to know that there is still someone who is truly knowledgeable in engine management to tackle this complex tuning task. This is by no means a simple bolt-on and work-by-itself project.

tiblanc_lebrun

thanks. I past lot of time in mod in my car and this winter me in my friend are working in is rx7 fd3s very nice project...

Like i tell to a friend modding is engine to make more power is to raise the power effiency... you make more power with the same displacement, did you know that a stock fd3s (rx7) make 196 hp/litter !

fsttyms1

See this is the common lack of not understanding. Sure there will be gains. But they arent going to be optimal gains and the gains have the potential to be far greater with a tune. Simply bolting things on will add but when you start mixing and matching stuff like this you really need a tune.
You need to also understand dynos, and its graphs. Sure there may be a "PEAK" number like that, and to most (no offense but it seems like yourself as well) but its not smooth and linear with lots of peaks and dips. To make the most of the motors power a tune is needed to smooth things out and VERY OFTEN more overall power can be made across a large range than just a small peak jump.

Ive said all im gonna say

adamlee05

You basically just restated what i said when i wrote "Almost no mod will be 100% taken advantage of without tuning...Our ECU's are decently flexible, you just don't get the full benefit". I said gains exist without a tune, although not optimal.

Not sure why you're saying "most people like yourself", I understand powerbands. Again I never said anything about it not being a linear smooth powerband.

^^^ As I said. Thanks Lebrun, at least someone understands that only the VTEC lobe is affected.

You just based that entire thing off us having a Mass Air Flow sensor, which we DONT. So saying that adding a high-flow intake is any different is absolutely false. The ECU assumes you are using a stock intake system which was designed together with the ECU timing and fuel maps for a set amount of air flow at a set manifold pressure (we have Manifold Absolute Pressure sensors, MAP sensors. no MAF, sorry). The ECU has absolutely no way to know there is more air entering the system until the O2 sensor realizes the engine is running slightly leaner than is should be base on the pre-programmed maps. At this point is adjusts its fuel-trims. The only thing thats significant enough during the VTEC engagement using this different cam is injector on time, which the ECU handles VERY EASILY using a little thing called Short Term Fuel Trim, unless you're at 100% WOT, then it just dumps fuel, enough in fact that you are still running rich even with the extra air intake charge.

As for the J30/J32 thing, again all thats being affected is air charge during VTEC engagement, and they do the exact same thing we do...modify the injectors on time to provide the fuel needed. The engines are very similar and the concept is the exact same, though it might be difficult for some to understand this.

Stop referring to this "Cam Lobe Profile", nothings different on any of these J-series cams lob-wise except the VTEC lobe, which is still in the same timing in relation to the timing-key on the cam and TDC as all the other cams. As far as the ECU cares, its only worried about the amount of air entering the chamber and how much fuel to give it to keep its O2 readings at the pre-set values its been programmed with.

And no, the Honda PCM is pretty damn smart when it comes to managing fuel and timing on an N/A engine.

Please don't spread misinformation based on something you don't fully understand, or at least research it beforehand. The fact you said we have a Mass Air Flow sensor is pretty misleading.

adamlee05

Also, I doubt DC4-posts is gonna return anytime soon

fsttyms1

The point i was getting at is most are mislead that a tune isnt necessary, which sure it really isnt but to get the best from it it should be. Mods like his shold be tuned to be optimal. The reason i said what i said is you came off to me like you didnt need to get a tune because there will be gains without it. Im sorry if you took it the wrong way.