Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

When we are all driving electric cars, this kaih guy is gonna try to run it on corn oil. Guaran-damn-tee it.

Gingerbreadman

I have to chime in to support Kaih. he is taking the counterpoint and making an effort to defend it which IMHO creates discovery and broadened thinking about issues.

Many of the arguements for 91+ octane are weak in my opinion. the one I hate the most is the "you bought a 35k car now you should pay the most you possibly can for everything that you possibly can for it" arguement. A. I didn't pay 35k for the car as i bought it used, i payed 10k for the car with 60k miles on it. B. I didn't buy a Civic because I didnt like how the civic looked in comparison, i didnt like how the civic handled in comparison, and i didn't like the features of the civic in comparison. i liked the acura and made the best choice for me on a price per what i got basis. When I bought it from that guy in NJ, did he make me sign the contract that you 35k payers must have signed, that says I will pay maximum for everything and naturally percieve anything less than the most expensive as not as good..... he must have forgotten to present that to me.

Second weak issue... the car/gas companies know best and are looking out for or best interest. Need I even say more..... what the hell?!?! The "MAN" is not looking out for you. the man is looking to make a nice tidy profit and if that involves inslaving children in some third world country... polluting your body with toxic chemicals... or flat out stealing your money and running off... the "MAN" will do it. Trust him if you want and find yourself in the hurt locker wondering what happened... Now you may say that the man makes a recommendation of using 91+ octane and what could he possibly profit from saying that if 89 was ok. People buy cars for many reasons. Some people buy cars for gas mileage, some people buy cars for looks, some people buy cars for power and speed. Hence we have the geo metro and the dodge viper available on the same planet. would the viper do well to worry about gas mileage and to advertise it's mpg... no.... or would the metro do well advertising their 0-60... probably not. Those cars are marketed at specific consumers and hence are advertised and the manuals reflect how to get the desired results from them. Maybe the acura corporation says 91+ because they wish to have the 225+ hp available to their mainstream market available all the time. This would keep the driver happy and wanting to buy an acura next time because it was a little more "fun" to drive.

3rd irriating point is that some seem to assume you need as many horsepower as possible at all times because everytime i leave the driveway i am racing for my life in some sort of crazy cannonball 3000 run. I like going fast... i do on more occasion than average..... i race around people and pass people just because i can from time to time. I also drive to work each day. I go to the grocery store and the dentist and I pick the kids up from school...etc etc etc. I would say I do a lot more of the later type driving than the first type driving. If I can find a means to reduce cost on my driving with no harmful affects then that is a good thing, at least to me in my situation, and I would assume a lot of others reading this thread.

The only thing that matters to me in the end is does my gas mileage suffer proportionately to the amount saved at the pump...and is there damage being done to my engine for the savings if there is any. The arguement that I do find compelling is the one about "the loss in mpg makes the savings at the pump nearly nothing or nothing at all". I see no compelling arguements that lower octane will cause engine damage (as long as it is not so low that it knocks). I would like to see article on that if there is one. I have tryed to read this whole thread and the links in it but suppose I could have missed one.

Anyway my point ... again... is don't get emotionally involved. The topic has been covered a million times and will be covered a million more. Don't read it if it bothers you, but some people just like to debate and really that is what is going on here. The same topics get debated over and over and the same things are said almost every time but the participants feel like they have done some good at the end so let us have our fun grumpy people!!! *smiles*

Gingerbreadman

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Same goes for you. If our arguments bother you, then don't read it. Obviously you're debating here, too, because you like to debate. You said it yourself, and you're giving us shit for it, yet you're doing the exact same thing.




Whatever. Like I said, I don't give a flying fuck what you guys do. Put diesel fuel in your car for all I care. Call me paranoid or overprotective, but when it comes to parts moving 115 times every second, I will follow or exceed factory recommendations. Hence the reason my car has never seen anything lower than 93 octane before (except this recent road trip when 91 was the highest available), and it's only been getting Mobil1 synthetic every 3,000 miles.

Are you going to try to tell me to use maple syrup for engine oil next??

kaih

You're objecting to the topic being at all discussed. Gingerbreadman is merely blowing holes through your arguments. He's not complaining about the discussion but your specific reasons.

I'm also confused with your devotion to Acura. 'Acura says so, Acura says so'. It's like trying to have an intelligent discussion with a six year old. It's like hearing your mothers reason's for not letting you do things growing up, 'because I said so".

Somebody once said " Don't confuse me with facts that contradict my preconceivied notion." You offer no facts, no links nothing but 'Acura says so'. Every time a fact or quote is presented it's ignored and a straw man fallacy erupts like "if you pay 35K for a car why go with 87" or " you won't have as much horsepower at 7000K at WOT."

Car dealers are only a few steps above the scumbag scale as lawyers. But 'Acura says so'. Do you jerk off at night while flipping the pages of an Acura brochure.

And maple syrup isn't good for engine oil but it's great for lubing the chasis.

kaih

Your welcome.

Never asked you too. Merely pointing out you can if you want. If your desire is to always have maximum horespower available then by all means use Premium. But you don't have to as it will not hurt your engine.

fsttyms1

its been proven to me. i have run 87 before and i got far less mileage with it.
there are only 1 or 2 people on this forum that drive more than i do. and when you do as much driving as i do and you have to fill up almost (if not) every day the reduction in mileage will equate to alot more mone spent at the pump.

Gingerbreadman

Pure adrenaline you are an angry.. angry person. This should help.

I remember when I first learned to curse as well and felt like I should bust it out whereever I was... whatever the occasion. Sometimes I would use it because it made me feel all grown up and sometimes because I felt like it amplified whatever I was saying. Later I realised that all it really did was to show that I was too ignorant to know the correct wording for the situation or was not articulate enough to get an intelligent point across. Hopefully you are near to that point as well.

As for the statement that "Same goes for you". Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Had you not done so I never would have known that I had that choice. Even with the new found knowledge however the difference is that I was not complaining about people discussing the issues of the thread. I was not telling people that their points of view were irritating me and that I was sick of hearing... how did you put it... octane this... octane that because "I" would have good enough sense to stop reading a thread about octane, clearly labled as being about octane, if i felt that way. I guess you have lots of things to learn yet... but sadly some are too stupid and never do.

I will allow you the final word and will not repost a reply. I know you won't think about what I said, because you won't undersand what I mean and will only see the insults, but your life would be a lot better if you did.

Gingerbreadman
-----------------------
Run, run as fast as you can......

Alex23

You guys are arguing over such a small amount of money.... The difference between 87 octane and 93 is usually around 20 cents, right? If you drive 10,000 miles a year and get on average 20mpg, you use 500 gallons of gas in one year. Therefore by using 87 instead of 93 you save yourself a grand total of $100 a year. You can modify these numbers for your mpg or your mileage per year, but in the end its really not a lot of money, all else considered.

Mr Hyde

I never said that the lower octane results in higher carbon deposits due to the lack of octane alone. If I did, please show me. I referred to knocking only. Its the lack of detergents that can lead to higher, and quicker carbon deposit buildup.

Nice in theory, but its not like you can get the 87 with the same detergent package as the 91+ now can you?

You keep asking for evidence, but show none of your own to back up your claims. I am not the one disregarding the manufacturer, mechanics, publications, etc; you are. How about you show us some proof??

I simply referred you back to the artcile to show that the cars designed to run on premium showed retarded timing thoughout the whole test. Overaggressively retarded timing leads to a decrease in MPG. If you dont see that, I am not going to waste any more time trying to tell you otherwise.

Since you want to quote that article again, why not quote this line.

[/b]Our tests confirm that for most cars there is no compelling reason to buy more expensive fuel than the factory recommends[/b]

Show me anything from anywhere stating that there is no compelling reason you shouldn't buy less expensive fuel than the factory recommends.


Hot weather traffic also counts as a high demand driving, and high underhood temps with little air circulation can definitely knock. I wish conditions like that occured for only brief moments at a time, but they dont. Also you dont need flat out pedal to the metal acceleration to induce knock, moderate acceleration can do it as well.

Yes I do drive my cars sportingly when conditions permit. Thats why I paid more for the sports suspensions, engines, and modifications. None of them make any sense if I am compromising in an area like this. If you like being passed by old ladies, (I can be facetious too) more power to you.

How about you post the article that states running lower octane gas is recommended???

I'm taking credit for something???

Thats great that you can state something wrong after saying you looked it up, and then admit to being wrong after being shown the correct info. Thats very big of you.

How about you wash your car with 2.5x less soap than recommended and see how clean it gets. Thats a more equivalent, yet equally astute analogy.

So to complete the list, you dont go by the the manufacturer, mechanics, publications, dealer, or the gas companies. I dont trust some of these individuals for things either, but when they are all say the same thing, I wonder.

If I did post info from the manufacturer, mechainics or gas company about Cow Piss, why would you follow that if you wont even follow the octane recommendations???

Didnt say you were trying to convince anyone. I just didnt want anyone getting the wrong info reading this, and then recommending it to everyone, especially those who are not car savy.

Run what you want, but there is much more info out there supporting my position than yours. To me the pennies on the dollar saved arent worth it.

To continue on the same note you chose above (re:car wash, dog piss, etc).

You can also save money by running on 4 donuts. Your braking, and accelerating performance will be decreased, but you'll probably save a couple of bucks each fillup.

MikePA

This thread stopped being about octane, mpg and spending more money for premium fuel about 3.5 pages ago.

Mr Hyde

Like I was stating, this is something I have heard time, and time again. The difference in fuel economy means the difference is even less than the 20 cents a gallon, $2 a tank(high estimate), and $104 (based on once a week fill up with the high estimate) a year you pay at the pump.

For that differential, I dont want to sacrifice anything. Its not worth it to me, but obviously is for some.

kaih

And according to the oil compaines website their regular grade gas has enough detergents to prevents carbon buildup. The Premium with 91 is there to help remove carbon buildup from using other manufacturers no detergent grade gasoline. So having 5 x the detergent is irrelevent if you don't have carbon.

You have provided no proof to disregard. I don't consider because Acura says so as proof. I don't know if you've been reading this thread but,I've pulled up several sources. Such as:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article...4&page_number=2

"According to Gottfried Schiller, director of powertrain engineering at Bosch, these block-mounted sensors—one or two of them on most engines and about the size of a quarter—work like tiny seismometers that measure vibration patterns throughout the block to identify knock in any cylinder. Relying on these sensors, the engine controller can keep each cylinder's spark timing advanced right to the hairy edge of knock, providing peak efficiency on any fuel and preventing the damage that knock can do to an engine."

There was this link I pulled up
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7518098/
“The car will run on regular fuel without damaging the engine,” said Martin Peters, manager of public relations for Porsche Cars North America Inc., the Atlanta-based subsidiary of Porsche AG, which like other automakers recommends premium fuel for all of its cars for “optimum performance.”

And BanjoBoston was nice enough to cut and paste the Wall Street Journal article that said:

"It is safe to fill your Avalon with lower-octane fuel without harming the engine or voiding its warranty. Computerized engine controls automatically adjust fuel flow, ignition timing and other functions that keep the car running properly"

And you continue to talk about the article's you've read that you can't produce. Did you write them yourself and them read them.

The test was testing max horsepower on a dyno and 0 to 60 runs. Not everyday real world driving. If you don't see that, I am not going to waste any more time trying to tell you otherwise.

Never at issue was the fact that knock sensors retard timing the issue. The issue still is does it harm the engine. And does it noticeably reduce mpg.

The article says nothing about damage or mpg decrease only performance decrease from the tests plus the statement from the guy from Bosch that says you can.


Then do a test and show me how many times the knock sensor comes on when you drive. Don't speculate.

The issue is not whether you have power whenever you want it. The issue is whether is causes damage. Stick to the topic. Try taking a critical thinking class. How you drive does not provide a shred of proof or anything of interest to the issue. Once again because you keep getting stuck on the power issue is. Does running 87 hurt the engine. Does it decrease MPG.

See above.

Thank you. Obviously you can't.

Actually it's not.

They're not all saying the same thing.

sarcasm: irony, satire, caustic_remark
witty language used to convey insults or scorn

I didn't

Still waiting for it

PM me for humor tips

Thanks for ignoring most of what I posted yet again.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

My reasons? What's wrong with my reasons.

All of our cars (mine and my friends') are always run on 93 octane, and on 91 octane, their cars were knocking. The Power FC Commander showed this fact in real-time data. That's convincing enough for me. But apparently you want a "link". I'm sorry, but I'm not hell-bent on posting links; rather I prefer to rely on information that I've seen with my own eyes, and my own gas mileage evaluations.

I'm not devoted to Acura. I love my car, but there are things I hate about it, as well, along with Acura. And I will not hesitate to express my opinion on that, either. In fact, I've posted plenty of negative feedback in the past.

I did offer facts, you idiot. You're the one who ignored them and won't talk about it, unless I offer a link. I will trust the Power FC data than your opinion online to decide if lower octane will indeed cause knocking or not, and if gas mileage went down or not. And I never said anything about paying 35K for a car and using 87 octane, blah blah blah. My dad's car is 55k and it doesn't require premium. My preference of octane level is not based on the price of the car.

As for the horsepower, I do care, because I go to the drag strips quite often. Last season alone, I had like a hundred passes under my belt. I love doing that, and competing against my own time and myself. And sacrificing horsepower by being a cheapskate isn't one of my tactics at the dragstrip to get a better time.

Besides, I would prefer to keep my car running in its peak performance capability if I could afford it. And thankfully, last time I checked, I could afford an extra buck at the pump.

Yes, yes. Dealers are. But I never mentioned anything about the dealers. You suck at debating. I only talked about Honda engineers and the recommendation of these engine builders. Last time I checked, they didn't work at a dealership. They worked for Honda/Acura corporate. They build these cars, and if they see necessary to run premium, then it probably is. What, you think there's a big conspiracy behind otance recommendation? You think gas companies bring a suitcase full of cash to the dark lit room in the back and hand it over to Honda/Acura for recommending premium only on their cars?

Thanks for that bit of information.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the lesson in life... You're nothing but a self-centered arrogant piece of shit. "I will allow you the final word and will not post a reply" Watch out, people! Bigger man coming through!


So I guess I'm stupid now. That's fine. I'm only 23 and I don't have the knowledge as deep as the ocean and as wide as your mom. There's no need for me to act like your age right now, because I'm not there yet. I will do that when I'm 36, but I won't talk down on youngsters who are still learning in life and leave a mental scar. Not that I'm hurt by your comments; I'm stronger than that (or am I a jackass who just won't learn?).

But I guess I'm just wasting my time, since you won't post anymore. Umm, nice talking to ya. kthxbye.

dark inspire

breathe. stretch. shake. let it go.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

No!! Nobody insults 93 octane and gets away with it!

dark inspire

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Honda engineers > kaih
93 octane > kaih
Mr Hyde > kaih
Debate > kaih

kaih < *

I hope I did the math right...

derrick

Ok, Ok ... enough's enough. Playtime is over everyone.

I'm glad people are debating the finer points to age-old questions ... but now I see mudslinging and we don't need this in a 'friendly' forum.

Thread closed. Please don't open up another one and do the same bickering.

Mr Hyde

When proven wrong, I happily admit to it, so when the time comes, I'll have no problems doing so, but you have yet to show me that anything that I said was completely backwards or wrong.

Sorry, but the PR guy from Toyota saying you can get decreased MPG using regular if your car was designed for 91+ is as credible a source as your Porsche PR guy (Although I'd love you to find any mechanic, or service tech who works on Porsches recommending running regular on a Porsche; turbo or otherwise.) Fysttymes1 experiences show descrease MPG using regular, and I find him a more a credible source than your first hand experience, especially with the mileage, and type of driving he does. Your only other source is the quote from an obscure guy at Bosch.

My sources are the owners manuals, service manuals, and all the literature on upkeep of my cars from Honda/Acura of America, BMW, Volvo. I dont even need to check to know that Lexus, Audi, etc all make the same recommendations which are in print in their owners manuals. Any certified tech who works on these cars in dealers, or in independant shops will make the same recommendations. I have yet to see one source that does not say that you should stick to minimum factory recommendations, and you havent shown that at all.

http://www.stanford.edu/~bmoses/knock.html

Nice quote from that Stanford paper "".................if the engine is designed from the beginning for higher octane fuel, it will have considerable advantages in power and economy. ""

I said it before, and I say it again, any knock is a bad thing, and lower octane that designed for can give lower fuel economy. Nothing you said even addressed that let alone said economy will not suffer.

http://www.aaawa.com/news_safety/new...ing_octane.asp

"Detonation that goes unchecked for even a very short time will create extreme pressures and temperatures in the combustion chamber. These conditions will quickly burn holes in pistons, damage valves and cause other severe engine damage that will cost thousands to fix! Also consider that if your vehicle is under warranty when these type problems occur, the manufacturer will not cover the repairs if it is found that the required grade of fuel has not been used. So, before you choose to save 20 cents per gallon by purchasing regular-grade fuel rather than premium, be sure to ask yourself, "Is the benefit worth the risk?" For the vast majority of drivers the answer will be "No."""

I can provide quote after quote saying stick to manufacturer minimum recommendations, and that using less than that can lead to knock. Plenty of links state economy can suffer just due to the engine not running at peak efficiency the way it was designed. These cars were more aggressively tuned taking premium fuel into account. If you want to ignore that, thats fine, but nothing you have shown supports that.

My sources are the guys who engineered, and built the engines. You wont find one credible source recommending regular in a car designed for premium, or undercutting the manufacturer's minimum recommendations.

You are simply ignoring facts by asking for proof that high temps lead to knock. Its a fact, and one of the primary causes of pre-igniton. Thats like asking for proof that I am breathing air.

Dont know what critical thinking class you took, but if they taught you that using "witty language used to convey insults or scorn" is an effective way to demonstrate your point, I would ask for a full refund. If not you can use that $100 you are saving a year (only initially at the pump), and in 30+ yrs, take another one. You can do that even quicker using no-name gas stations, or cutting your gas with Acetone, and isopropyl alcohol. Your car will run on that stuff, but I dont have proof that its not ideal.

Thank You, come again.