What octane gas do you use in your TL?
05-31-2005, 07:50 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
Did you expect him, or anyone else to continue filling up with 87, and drive around despite the engine knocking the whole time?
NOT true...Cars designed to run on 91 do NOT have a baseline timing curve set to 87 which is then advanced only when running premium. You have that backwards. The cars timing timing curve is set at baseline to run with 91 octane. If you run a lower octane, then the timing is retarded from baseline to compensate. Keep in mind, the computer will not retard timing just to the point of knocking, or pre-ignition, but will overcompensate, and retard timing even further to be on the safe side.
I have seen a few article in publications dealing with what a waste it is to run 91+ in a car designed for 87, but I have also seen the same when talking about the reverse. Every time, the drop in mpg alone meant in the end that the difference in price between the 2 amounted to pennies, and was a small fraction compared to the difference at the pump. If you use more of the cheaper gas, its not much of a savings. This doesnt even take into account the issue of decreased power, and performance.
If your car is knocking, your sensors arent keeping up, and any knocking whatsoever is a very bad thing.
These cars especially the Type-S with its even higher compression over the TL-P run the best, and at their most efficient with the recommended octane. If you own a TL-P, or a TL-S especially, why waste the thousands on the added perfomance if you are going to just water it down with lower octane gas?
There is also the fact that most stations do add more detergents, and additives to their higher octane blends which help combat carbon deposits etc, and keep your engine running cleaner longer. In one users case, that could easily lead to carbon deposits, etc which would then cause knocking.
If a car is designed for it, you should run it. You say find me a blown engine due to running lower than recommended octane. I say find me any respected mechanic, or automotive publication that would recommend running lower than recommended octane.
NOT true...Cars designed to run on 91 do NOT have a baseline timing curve set to 87 which is then advanced only when running premium. You have that backwards. The cars timing timing curve is set at baseline to run with 91 octane. If you run a lower octane, then the timing is retarded from baseline to compensate. Keep in mind, the computer will not retard timing just to the point of knocking, or pre-ignition, but will overcompensate, and retard timing even further to be on the safe side.
I have seen a few article in publications dealing with what a waste it is to run 91+ in a car designed for 87, but I have also seen the same when talking about the reverse. Every time, the drop in mpg alone meant in the end that the difference in price between the 2 amounted to pennies, and was a small fraction compared to the difference at the pump. If you use more of the cheaper gas, its not much of a savings. This doesnt even take into account the issue of decreased power, and performance.
If your car is knocking, your sensors arent keeping up, and any knocking whatsoever is a very bad thing.
These cars especially the Type-S with its even higher compression over the TL-P run the best, and at their most efficient with the recommended octane. If you own a TL-P, or a TL-S especially, why waste the thousands on the added perfomance if you are going to just water it down with lower octane gas?
There is also the fact that most stations do add more detergents, and additives to their higher octane blends which help combat carbon deposits etc, and keep your engine running cleaner longer. In one users case, that could easily lead to carbon deposits, etc which would then cause knocking.
If a car is designed for it, you should run it. You say find me a blown engine due to running lower than recommended octane. I say find me any respected mechanic, or automotive publication that would recommend running lower than recommended octane.
Well put!
and to add to this, for you green thumbs out there, the lower octane in our cars will also mean a dirtier tail pipe (the gases coming out)
05-31-2005, 08:00 PM
#42
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The service manager at the dealer near me says to put regular 87 into the TL and that's what my mother has been doing for years. He said it won't damage it at all and she's never had a single issue with the car. Take it FWIW.
05-31-2005, 08:01 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
Did you expect him, or anyone else to continue filling up with 87, and drive around despite the engine knocking the whole time? .
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
NOT true...Cars designed to run on 91 do NOT have a baseline timing curve set to 87 which is then advanced only when running premium. You have that backwards. The cars timing timing curve is set at baseline to run with 91 octane. If you run a lower octane, then the timing is retarded from baseline to compensate. Keep in mind, the computer will not retard timing just to the point of knocking, or pre-ignition, but will overcompensate, and retard timing even further to be on the safe side..
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
I have seen a few article in publications dealing with what a waste it is to run 91+ in a car designed for 87, but I have also seen the same when talking about the reverse. Every time, the drop in mpg alone meant in the end that the difference in price between the 2 amounted to pennies, and was a small fraction compared to the difference at the pump. If you use more of the cheaper gas, its not much of a savings. This doesnt even take into account the issue of decreased power, and performance. .
I'm skeptical about the lose in mileage. Admittedly I have not seen enough data to decided. Personally I have seen a mileage increase when using regular.
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
If your car is knocking, your sensors arent keeping up, and any knocking whatsoever is a very bad thing..
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
There is also the fact that most stations do add more detergents, and additives to their higher octane blends which help combat carbon deposits etc, and keep your engine running cleaner longer. In one users case, that could easily lead to carbon deposits, etc which would then cause knocking..
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
I say find me any respected mechanic.
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
or automotive publication that would recommend running lower than recommended octane.
05-31-2005, 08:23 PM
#44
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by kaih
Some people would like to find the cause of the knocking. Higher octane gas treats the sympton not the cause.
Originally Posted by kaih
My point is the car will run fine without premium and you will not damage the engine.
I'm skeptical about the lose in mileage. Admittedly I have not seen enough data to decided. Personally I have seen a mileage increase when using regular.
I'm skeptical about the lose in mileage. Admittedly I have not seen enough data to decided. Personally I have seen a mileage increase when using regular.
The last article I saw in regards to MPG was from Car & Driver only a few years ago; perhaps it can be found on their site as well.
Originally Posted by kaih
Making knock an engine management issue and not an octane issue. I'm referring to a car in good mechanical condition. If you have a rough running 300K mile car then running premium might help but the real problem is the engine is breaking down.
Originally Posted by kaih
Are you sure about that. I never seen any marketing claiming the higher octane gases have better detergents. I see that kind of marketing for choosing one brand of gas over another but not one grade over another.
Originally Posted by kaih
I haven't found one yet but I'm still looking
There an unbiased source. A car magazine who's main advertisers are car manufacturers and oil companies.
There an unbiased source. A car magazine who's main advertisers are car manufacturers and oil companies.
Money can also be saved by using no name gas at the Gaseteria's etc, cheap no name oil& filter changes only once a year, and by extending the service life of your air filters, spark plugs, etc. Your car will probably still run fine, but it wont be running at its peak, and I wouldnt recommend any of these things either. I see this as the same; a part of maintenace & upkeep.
05-31-2005, 09:30 PM
#45
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Check out brief article in the Wall Street Journal- no major problem using lower octane
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1...-email,00.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1...-email,00.html
05-31-2005, 09:58 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by BanjoBoston
Check out brief article in the Wall Street Journal- no major problem using lower octane
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1...-email,00.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1...-email,00.html
05-31-2005, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BanjoBoston
Check out brief article in the Wall Street Journal- no major problem using lower octane
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1...-email,00.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1...-email,00.html
05-31-2005, 10:45 PM
#48
93 all the way, but this is true though: running higher than recommended is a waste, but eventhough with lesser octane like 89 you will get more mileage out of the tank, you are putting your car's engine under more stress, so loss of power, less purified gas, and emissions level go up.
Its costing me 40 bux to fill up, but what the hell, I have 100K on the car, and it runs like right outta the factory. You wouldnt eat crap you are allergic to, would u?
Kris, as always, I agree with you.
laterz
Its costing me 40 bux to fill up, but what the hell, I have 100K on the car, and it runs like right outta the factory. You wouldnt eat crap you are allergic to, would u?
Kris, as always, I agree with you.
laterz
05-31-2005, 10:52 PM
#49
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Anyway... Back to the answer! 91 is the highest I can get in Denver. Every 10K though, I put a can of BG-20 in the tank before I fill up. It keeps the injection system clean and delivers a hell of a power punch for that tank. It is like a liquid turbo. Careful though, only to be used every 10K or so.
05-31-2005, 11:22 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by Mile High TL
Anyway... Back to the answer! 91 is the highest I can get in Denver. Every 10K though, I put a can of BG-20 in the tank before I fill up. It keeps the injection system clean and delivers a hell of a power punch for that tank. It is like a liquid turbo. Careful though, only to be used every 10K or so.
06-01-2005, 01:40 AM
#51
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This forum won't quote the quotes, so I'll just use what it quotes cause I'm too lazy to add the rest of the quotes.
Where is there information that links carbon build up to octane ratings. How do you know that using lower octane gas harms the engine, causes carbon build up fouls injectors or in any way disrupts any of the systems. Engine wear happens to all engines, regardless of octane and is not accelerated by using a lower rating.
Under moderate driving conditions I don't believe it would. The ignition would only retard timing if it detects knock. It does not know the octane of the gas it merely responds to how the engine is running. The engine will typically only knock under heavy acceleration or heavy loads like going up a hill not at cruising speeds.
Somebodyshould hook up a car to the ODB port and monitor spark advance and A/F with different grade gases under different driving conditions like WOT and cruising speeds and see how the engine responds.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=2
The article talks about power output. There is no mention of MPG.
Went to
www.shell.com
www.chevron.com
www.union76.com
The are the major gas compaines around here.
Shell has Vpower, chevron has Techron and Union76 has Proclean. They all appear to be in low mid and high grade gas. None of the websites try to upsell to premium. I'm sure it might exist somewhere, but I've never seen any of the big oil companies pushing premium because it has better additives than regular. Please provide some examples.
I seem to remember that somebody came down on the oil companies for misleading the public into thinking that higher octane gases had better detergents and more fuel additives.
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
Not in a car designed for it. In that case, running the lower octane is a part of the problem/cause. Also I wouldnt recommend driving any car if it is knocking. Same for overheating. The problems that could be caused may not be immediately evident, but they can definitely come back to haunt you.
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
Both of those statements go hand in hand. To me it seems pretty obvious that if you are not keeping the engine running at peak efficiency, and have it over retarding its timing that MPG will suffer. Yes the engine may run fine, but its not at peak efficiency.
Somebodyshould hook up a car to the ODB port and monitor spark advance and A/F with different grade gases under different driving conditions like WOT and cruising speeds and see how the engine responds.
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
The last article I saw in regards to MPG was from Car & Driver only a few years ago; perhaps it can be found on their site as well.
The article talks about power output. There is no mention of MPG.
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
That is absolutley true.
www.shell.com
www.chevron.com
www.union76.com
The are the major gas compaines around here.
Shell has Vpower, chevron has Techron and Union76 has Proclean. They all appear to be in low mid and high grade gas. None of the websites try to upsell to premium. I'm sure it might exist somewhere, but I've never seen any of the big oil companies pushing premium because it has better additives than regular. Please provide some examples.
I seem to remember that somebody came down on the oil companies for misleading the public into thinking that higher octane gases had better detergents and more fuel additives.
06-01-2005, 05:40 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
i cant show you a engine that has blown (recently but it has happened to me in the past) and NONE of us here have stated they can. BUT what i can show you is ALOT lower mileage, and when you have to fill up the tank almost every day like my self REGULAR gas (87) costs alot more than 93. i could also show you my car is slower with it too. YOU can put what ever you want into your car, and i will continue to put in 93 because it costs me less and i get better performance
I hadn't thought about it that way, but you are right. If you get lower gas mileage with 87, and filling up more frequently then what's the use. And a fill up from empty will only cost you about 2 bucks more.
06-01-2005, 05:54 AM
#53
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Also, for those of you who say you save $150 or $260 bucks a year by using something like 87, show me when you save it up in your piggy bank at the end of the year and are able to buy your cases of beer. It's obvious that you wont put that extra money into anyone's Christmas gifts, you'll spend it some other way.
06-01-2005, 07:35 AM
#56
And honestly, who the hell cares? Let them run 87 all they want, and we'll put 91+ in our cars. Whatever.
I just don't see the point of sacrificing mileage and putting the engine through unnecessary stress to save a buck at the pump. I love and care about my car too much to be that cheap -- I shop around until I find the absolute cheapest prices for my mods, but I won't be cheap over a buck at the gas station.
Go buy a car with an engine that's meant to run on 87. Oh, wait. Then you'll try to run it on 83.
I just don't see the point of sacrificing mileage and putting the engine through unnecessary stress to save a buck at the pump. I love and care about my car too much to be that cheap -- I shop around until I find the absolute cheapest prices for my mods, but I won't be cheap over a buck at the gas station.
Go buy a car with an engine that's meant to run on 87. Oh, wait. Then you'll try to run it on 83.
06-01-2005, 08:33 AM
#57
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
And honestly, who the hell cares? Let them run 87 all they want, and we'll put 91+ in our cars. Whatever.
I just don't see the point of sacrificing mileage and putting the engine through unnecessary stress to save a buck at the pump. I love and care about my car too much to be that cheap -- I shop around until I find the absolute cheapest prices for my mods, but I won't be cheap over a buck at the gas station.
Go buy a car with an engine that's meant to run on 87. Oh, wait. Then you'll try to run it on 83.
I just don't see the point of sacrificing mileage and putting the engine through unnecessary stress to save a buck at the pump. I love and care about my car too much to be that cheap -- I shop around until I find the absolute cheapest prices for my mods, but I won't be cheap over a buck at the gas station.
Go buy a car with an engine that's meant to run on 87. Oh, wait. Then you'll try to run it on 83.
06-01-2005, 11:21 AM
#58
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There sure seems to be alot of passion about what others run for gas. Don't get so attached guys we are just having a discussion not trying to prove who has the biggest willey.
Here is an article about the octane issue http://www.off-road.com/rick/gas2/
and here are a few excerpts from it.
"When a charge of fuel is introduced into an engine and ignited, the flame spreads out from the spark plug to the cylinder wall. If this happens all at once, you get detonation, or knock. A steady, even, slow burn is desirable.
Octane (or an increase in the octane level) will not increase your horsepower, no matter what your buddy tells you. However, insufficient octane can cause an engine to lose horsepower. All the octane you need is what your engine demands to keep from detonating."
and
"WILL OCTANE BOOSTERS ADD HORSEPOWER?
No. This is a misconception. Octane in itself does not add power. However, an engine that's forced to run on fuel with a lower octane than what's needed will run hot, detonate, and eventually lose power. The proper octane level will let the engine run to its full potential, but won't transform it into something special.
When a combustion chamber gets a charge of fuel, the plug sparks, and the fuel is burned. With the right octane level, the burn is clean and even. With too little octane, the burn can be uneven and a hammering can result. "
It seems they are saying if the car ain't knockin' you be a rockin'. I could have misunderstood it though i guess.
I will fill up with unleaded regular next time i fill up and see what I get for mileage. If it is a significant drop then it would not be worth it to run regular unleaded but i suspect the mileage will be almost the same either way. I'll let you know.
Here is an article about the octane issue http://www.off-road.com/rick/gas2/
and here are a few excerpts from it.
"When a charge of fuel is introduced into an engine and ignited, the flame spreads out from the spark plug to the cylinder wall. If this happens all at once, you get detonation, or knock. A steady, even, slow burn is desirable.
Octane (or an increase in the octane level) will not increase your horsepower, no matter what your buddy tells you. However, insufficient octane can cause an engine to lose horsepower. All the octane you need is what your engine demands to keep from detonating."
and
"WILL OCTANE BOOSTERS ADD HORSEPOWER?
No. This is a misconception. Octane in itself does not add power. However, an engine that's forced to run on fuel with a lower octane than what's needed will run hot, detonate, and eventually lose power. The proper octane level will let the engine run to its full potential, but won't transform it into something special.
When a combustion chamber gets a charge of fuel, the plug sparks, and the fuel is burned. With the right octane level, the burn is clean and even. With too little octane, the burn can be uneven and a hammering can result. "
It seems they are saying if the car ain't knockin' you be a rockin'. I could have misunderstood it though i guess.
I will fill up with unleaded regular next time i fill up and see what I get for mileage. If it is a significant drop then it would not be worth it to run regular unleaded but i suspect the mileage will be almost the same either way. I'll let you know.
06-01-2005, 12:20 PM
#59
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With the gas price going up each day, wouldn't you think Acura would like to label their cars "Unleaded Regular Recommended." But they couldn't because they found something on their R and D. I've been in an electronic production line myself and Japanese are really strict when it comes to failure rates. We use to have 5 samplings per 100 and if it one fails then all 100 gets rejected. So it means that not all cars will have a problem if they try low octane fuel but the possibility is still there.
06-01-2005, 04:03 PM
#64
I always filled up with 93, until about a month ago when I filled regular my mistake. My car ran the same with regular as it used to before so I have been using that for the past few fillups. My milage has also stayed the same, I drive about 100 miles a day.
06-01-2005, 06:43 PM
#65
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by kaih
Where is there information that links carbon build up to octane ratings. How do you know that using lower octane gas harms the engine, causes carbon build up fouls injectors or in any way disrupts any of the systems. Engine wear happens to all engines, regardless of octane and is not accelerated by using a lower rating.
Originally Posted by kaih
Under moderate driving conditions I don't believe it would. The ignition would only retard timing if it detects knock.
Originally Posted by kaih
The engine will typically only knock under heavy acceleration or heavy loads like going up a hill not at cruising speeds.
Originally Posted by kaih
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=2
The article talks about power output. There is no mention of MPG.
The article talks about power output. There is no mention of MPG.
Originally Posted by kaih
Went to
www.shell.com
www.chevron.com
www.union76.com
............................................... but I've never seen any of the big oil companies pushing premium because it has better additives than regular. Please provide some examples.
www.shell.com
www.chevron.com
www.union76.com
............................................... but I've never seen any of the big oil companies pushing premium because it has better additives than regular. Please provide some examples.
Originally Posted by Shell
Shell regular and mid-grade gasolines contain more than twice the amount of detergents required by the EPA. This level of protection helps prevent the future build-up of carbon deposits on your vehicle’s intake valves or fuel injectors. However, if you use discount gasolines, you may already have intake valve or fuel injector deposits, which may need to be cleaned up. That is where Shell V-Power® comes in.
Want to know more about the testing?
Shell V-Power®. Actively cleans as you drive.
Shell V-Power®, our new premium gasoline,is the most highly formulated gasoline we’ve ever developed. With more than five times the minimum amount of cleaning agents required by government standards, it actively cleans your engine’s intake valves as you drive.
Want to know more about the testing?
Shell V-Power®. Actively cleans as you drive.
Shell V-Power®, our new premium gasoline,is the most highly formulated gasoline we’ve ever developed. With more than five times the minimum amount of cleaning agents required by government standards, it actively cleans your engine’s intake valves as you drive.
2 vs 5x govt standards. The Premium grade definitely contains more. Same story at Chevron, etc.
Personally to me, the over retarded timing makes savings much less than what you pay at the pump, and at the same time, you are sacrificing power, and additive packages on cars designed to run on premium.
Use what you want, but its not recommended by anyone else, and I think anyone running regular on a TL-S should have just saved much more money by just getting a TL-P. There is no need to run anything higher than the recommended, but stick with the minimum recommendations if you want the car running at 100% at all times.
06-01-2005, 06:58 PM
#67
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
I didnt say that it always has to cause carbon deposits, but if your car does develop knock, and you go to any mechanic, and tell them you are running regular, what is their first, and most correct suggestion going to be??
Read your own article from C&D. Why did all of the cars designed to run on premium post such losses on the dyno? Either they were all running at the point of knock, and had lowered the timing, which is a bad thing to be doing on a daily basis, or they compensated for the lower octane, and adjusted the curve proactively. Either way shows my point.
I believe I already said that, but I am not going to baby my gas pedal just because of the gas I choose. On a hot Day in NYC traffic, or when Im on the highway and want to pass someone quick. I dont want to have to pay any heed to the blend of gas I chose when I filled up that AM.
Not the exact article I was referring to, in terms of MPG, but it proves my point above in regards to overaggressive timing retarding to compensate for the lower octane.
Not sure what you read, or where you looked, but just using Shell as an example. Direct from their web site.
2 vs 5x govt standards. The Premium grade definitely contains more. Same story at Chevron, etc.
Personally to me, the over retarded timing makes savings much less than what you pay at the pump, and at the same time, you are sacrificing power, and additive packages on cars designed to run on premium.
Use what you want, but its not recommended by anyone else, and I think anyone running regular on a TL-S should have just saved much more money by just getting a TL-P. There is no need to run anything higher than the recommended, but stick with the minimum recommendations if you want the car running at 100% at all times.
Read your own article from C&D. Why did all of the cars designed to run on premium post such losses on the dyno? Either they were all running at the point of knock, and had lowered the timing, which is a bad thing to be doing on a daily basis, or they compensated for the lower octane, and adjusted the curve proactively. Either way shows my point.
I believe I already said that, but I am not going to baby my gas pedal just because of the gas I choose. On a hot Day in NYC traffic, or when Im on the highway and want to pass someone quick. I dont want to have to pay any heed to the blend of gas I chose when I filled up that AM.
Not the exact article I was referring to, in terms of MPG, but it proves my point above in regards to overaggressive timing retarding to compensate for the lower octane.
Not sure what you read, or where you looked, but just using Shell as an example. Direct from their web site.
2 vs 5x govt standards. The Premium grade definitely contains more. Same story at Chevron, etc.
Personally to me, the over retarded timing makes savings much less than what you pay at the pump, and at the same time, you are sacrificing power, and additive packages on cars designed to run on premium.
Use what you want, but its not recommended by anyone else, and I think anyone running regular on a TL-S should have just saved much more money by just getting a TL-P. There is no need to run anything higher than the recommended, but stick with the minimum recommendations if you want the car running at 100% at all times.
06-01-2005, 07:10 PM
#68
Senior Moderator
LOL.
Im not looking for any praise, just dont want any confusion. In cars designed to run on 91+,
Some may choose to run regular, but they need to follow it, and if knock occurs, deal with it. I definitely dont agree that if your car knocks on 87 you should just keep driving that tank til empty, and then just try 87 at another station on your next fill. Thats bad advice. If you have any knock using 87, you should go to the store(preferabley using someone elses car), buy a few cans of octane boost and toss it in. You'd spend many times what you thought you saved at the pump, but oh well, lesson learned.
I also dont want people recommending the 87 to their moms, aunts, friends, etc who have no automotive knowledge, and who would do as told, and then just continue driving their cars completely ignoring the weird noises their engine was making, or not knowing what it was. I know they exist because I have many in my family who will drive a car as long as it can move under its own power no matter what else is going on.
Im not looking for any praise, just dont want any confusion. In cars designed to run on 91+,
Some may choose to run regular, but they need to follow it, and if knock occurs, deal with it. I definitely dont agree that if your car knocks on 87 you should just keep driving that tank til empty, and then just try 87 at another station on your next fill. Thats bad advice. If you have any knock using 87, you should go to the store(preferabley using someone elses car), buy a few cans of octane boost and toss it in. You'd spend many times what you thought you saved at the pump, but oh well, lesson learned.
I also dont want people recommending the 87 to their moms, aunts, friends, etc who have no automotive knowledge, and who would do as told, and then just continue driving their cars completely ignoring the weird noises their engine was making, or not knowing what it was. I know they exist because I have many in my family who will drive a car as long as it can move under its own power no matter what else is going on.
06-01-2005, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
I didnt say that it always has to cause carbon deposits, but if your car does develop knock, and you go to any mechanic, and tell them you are running regular, what is their first, and most correct suggestion going to be??
Read your own article from C&D. Why did all of the cars designed to run on premium post such losses on the dyno? Either they were all running at the point of knock, and had lowered the timing, (NOT a good thing), or they compensated for the lower octane, and adjusted the curve proactively. Either way shows my point.
I believe I already said that, but I am not going to baby my gas pedal just because of the gas I choose. On a hot Day in NYC traffic, or when Im on the highway and want to pass someone quick. I dont want to have to pay any heed to the blend of gas I chose when I filled up that AM.
Not the exact article I was referring to, in terms of MPG, but it proves my point above in regards to overaggressive timing retarding to compensate for the lower octane.
Not sure what you read, or where you looked, but just using Shell as an example. Direct from their web site.
2 vs 5x govt standards. The Premium grade definitely contains more. Same story at Chevron, etc.
Personally to me, the over retarded timing makes savings much less than what you pay at the pump, and at the same time, you are sacrificing power, and additive packages on cars designed to run on premium.
Use what you want, but its not recommended by anyone else, and I think anyone running regular on a TL-S should have just saved much more money by just getting a TL-P. There is no need to run anything higher than the recommended, but stick with the minimum recommendations if you want the car running at 100% at all times.
Read your own article from C&D. Why did all of the cars designed to run on premium post such losses on the dyno? Either they were all running at the point of knock, and had lowered the timing, (NOT a good thing), or they compensated for the lower octane, and adjusted the curve proactively. Either way shows my point.
I believe I already said that, but I am not going to baby my gas pedal just because of the gas I choose. On a hot Day in NYC traffic, or when Im on the highway and want to pass someone quick. I dont want to have to pay any heed to the blend of gas I chose when I filled up that AM.
Not the exact article I was referring to, in terms of MPG, but it proves my point above in regards to overaggressive timing retarding to compensate for the lower octane.
Not sure what you read, or where you looked, but just using Shell as an example. Direct from their web site.
2 vs 5x govt standards. The Premium grade definitely contains more. Same story at Chevron, etc.
Personally to me, the over retarded timing makes savings much less than what you pay at the pump, and at the same time, you are sacrificing power, and additive packages on cars designed to run on premium.
Use what you want, but its not recommended by anyone else, and I think anyone running regular on a TL-S should have just saved much more money by just getting a TL-P. There is no need to run anything higher than the recommended, but stick with the minimum recommendations if you want the car running at 100% at all times.
SO you dont think a TL-P needs it? On mine it says to use premium. Does it not matter if you arent S?
06-01-2005, 08:53 PM
#70
Originally Posted by Chauncey
SO you dont think a TL-P needs it? On mine it says to use premium. Does it not matter if you arent S?
Honestly, guys. Car companies aren't stupid -- they know people think about gas mileage when they buy cars, and if they could do without the expensive premium fuel, then they would!! It's not like they woke up one morning and said, "Damn, I feel like requiring 91+ octane on the TL today."
Honda is one of the best engine tuners as far as car manufactuerer companies are concerned. They know how to do engines right, and if Honda engineers say I should put premium in my engine, then fucking a, I'm not arguing with them.
For all you guys saying that it's okay to run regular, therefore sacrificing gas mileage, constantly putting the engine through unnecessary stress due to timing pull... are you saying that you know more about these engines than Honda engineers? Didn't think so, so shut the hell up. I'm so sick of these octane this, octane that. If you think you're so smart and go against what the BUILDERS OF THESE ENGINES say we should do, then prove it. Otherwise shut the hell up.
Damn, I'm bitter today. But that felt good. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses.
06-02-2005, 02:04 AM
#71
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Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
I didnt say that it always has to cause carbon deposits, but if your car does develop knock, and you go to any mechanic, and tell them you are running regular, what is their first, and most correct suggestion going to be??.
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
Read your own article from C&D. Why did all of the cars designed to run on premium post such losses on the dyno? Either they were all running at the point of knock, and had lowered the timing, (NOT a good thing), or they compensated for the lower octane, and adjusted the curve proactively. Either way shows my point..
"According to Gottfried Schiller, director of powertrain engineering at Bosch, these block-mounted sensors—one or two of them on most engines and about the size of a quarter—work like tiny seismometers that measure vibration patterns throughout the block to identify knock in any cylinder. Relying on these sensors, the engine controller can keep each cylinder's spark timing advanced right to the hairy edge of knock, providing peak efficiency on any fuel and preventing the damage that knock can do to an engine."
Also from that article:
"Carbon buildup inside the cylinder can create hot spots that can initiate knock. So can malfunctioning exhaust-gas-recirculation systems that raise cylinder temperatures. Hot temperatures and exceptionally low humidity can increase an engine's octane requirements as well."
An engineer from Bosch claiming that the car can handle lower octane and a list of things that cause knock, and no link of them to 87 octane.
Your point seems to only be loss of power. Again nobody is contending the loss of power. We all get it. You lose horsepower.
Lose of horspower under WOT does not equate to loss of MPG. If it does show me some proof.
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
I believe I already said that, but I am not going to baby my gas pedal just because of the gas I choose. On a hot Day in NYC traffic, or when Im on the highway and want to pass someone quick. I dont want to have to pay any heed to the blend of gas I chose when I filled up that AM.
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
Not the exact article I was referring to, in terms of MPG, but it proves my point above in regards to overaggressive timing retarding to compensate for the lower octane. .
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
Not sure what you read, or where you looked, but just using Shell as an example. Direct from their web site.
However the article did state:
"This level of protection helps prevent the future build-up of carbon deposits "
That was in reference to regular gas. So I guess I was right using 87 doesn't cause carbon build up. At least according to shell. But personally I think they're full of crap and I wouldn't believe anything they have to say anyway.
Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
Personally to me, the over retarded timing makes savings much less than what you pay at the pump, and at the same time, you are sacrificing power, and additive packages on cars designed to run on premium.
Use what you want, but its not recommended by anyone else, and I think anyone running regular on a TL-S should have just saved much more money by just getting a TL-P. There is no need to run anything higher than the recommended, but stick with the minimum recommendations if you want the car running at 100% at all times.
Use what you want, but its not recommended by anyone else, and I think anyone running regular on a TL-S should have just saved much more money by just getting a TL-P. There is no need to run anything higher than the recommended, but stick with the minimum recommendations if you want the car running at 100% at all times.
Give me something anything that links 87 gas to engine damage or MPG loss. I'll listen but I need complelling evidence. What can I say I'm skeptical. Acura (the same company that built a piece of crap transmission and tried to ignore it until heavy pressure from the media and comsumer groups started nagging them) hasn't earned my trust. Oil companies are another business that are far down on the credibility ladder.
I think that premium is required to make maximum horespower and to get maximum acceleration. I don't think it's required to make the car run and has little effect on normal driving.
P.s. On a side note how many people are more concerned with the 'quality' of fuel they put in their car than the quaility of food they consume. "Yeah I eat 4000 calories a day, lots of transfat, suger and chlorestoral, I'm 50 lbs overweight but I only put 93 in my Acura."
06-02-2005, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Type-S has a higher compression ratio than the Premium model. It's best to use premium if premium is recommended; but the Type-S needs it more than the Premium.
Honestly, guys. Car companies aren't stupid -- they know people think about gas mileage when they buy cars, and if they could do without the expensive premium fuel, then they would!! It's not like they woke up one morning and said, "Damn, I feel like requiring 91+ octane on the TL today."
Honda is one of the best engine tuners as far as car manufactuerer companies are concerned. They know how to do engines right, and if Honda engineers say I should put premium in my engine, then fucking a, I'm not arguing with them.
For all you guys saying that it's okay to run regular, therefore sacrificing gas mileage, constantly putting the engine through unnecessary stress due to timing pull... are you saying that you know more about these engines than Honda engineers? Didn't think so, so shut the hell up. I'm so sick of these octane this, octane that. If you think you're so smart and go against what the BUILDERS OF THESE ENGINES say we should do, then prove it. Otherwise shut the hell up.
Damn, I'm bitter today. But that felt good. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses.
Honestly, guys. Car companies aren't stupid -- they know people think about gas mileage when they buy cars, and if they could do without the expensive premium fuel, then they would!! It's not like they woke up one morning and said, "Damn, I feel like requiring 91+ octane on the TL today."
Honda is one of the best engine tuners as far as car manufactuerer companies are concerned. They know how to do engines right, and if Honda engineers say I should put premium in my engine, then fucking a, I'm not arguing with them.
For all you guys saying that it's okay to run regular, therefore sacrificing gas mileage, constantly putting the engine through unnecessary stress due to timing pull... are you saying that you know more about these engines than Honda engineers? Didn't think so, so shut the hell up. I'm so sick of these octane this, octane that. If you think you're so smart and go against what the BUILDERS OF THESE ENGINES say we should do, then prove it. Otherwise shut the hell up.
Damn, I'm bitter today. But that felt good. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses.
You say:
"sacrificing gas mileage"
I say:
Under debate, not proven.
You say:
"unnecessary stress due to timing pull"
I say:
With that kind of grip on the internal combustion engine maybe Honda will be lucky enough to have you work there one day.
You say:
'are you saying that you know more about these engines than Honda engineers'
I say:
And don't forget makers of bulletproof automatic transmissions.
You say:
they know people think about gas mileage when they buy cars, and if they could do without the expensive premium fuel, then they would!! It's not like they woke up one morning and said, "Damn, I feel like requiring 91+ octane on the TL today."
I say:
If that Honda job doesn't work out maybe one idoing consumer research for a marketing company.
06-02-2005, 02:41 AM
#73
Originally Posted by kaih
If you're sick of it don't read the thread and don't respond.
You say:
"sacrificing gas mileage"
I say:
Under debate, not proven.
You say:
"unnecessary stress due to timing pull"
I say:
With that kind of grip on the internal combustion engine maybe Honda will be lucky enough to have you work there one day.
You say:
'are you saying that you know more about these engines than Honda engineers'
I say:
And don't forget makers of bulletproof automatic transmissions.
You say:
they know people think about gas mileage when they buy cars, and if they could do without the expensive premium fuel, then they would!! It's not like they woke up one morning and said, "Damn, I feel like requiring 91+ octane on the TL today."
I say:
If that Honda job doesn't work out maybe one idoing consumer research for a marketing company.
You say:
"sacrificing gas mileage"
I say:
Under debate, not proven.
You say:
"unnecessary stress due to timing pull"
I say:
With that kind of grip on the internal combustion engine maybe Honda will be lucky enough to have you work there one day.
You say:
'are you saying that you know more about these engines than Honda engineers'
I say:
And don't forget makers of bulletproof automatic transmissions.
You say:
they know people think about gas mileage when they buy cars, and if they could do without the expensive premium fuel, then they would!! It's not like they woke up one morning and said, "Damn, I feel like requiring 91+ octane on the TL today."
I say:
If that Honda job doesn't work out maybe one idoing consumer research for a marketing company.
1. Michigan has 93 octane. This past weekend I was in Iowa and they only had 91. My friends' cars started knocking right away (Integra Type-R's) and the real-time data on their Power FC Commanders proved it. I don't have one in my car, but my gas mileage immediately went down, and I calculate my gas mileage at literally every single fill-up.
2. The transmission has nothing to do with this. Besides, it was outsourced to another company, and Honda has switched to another supplier since then.
3. I never claimed to know a lot about cars. I know a little bit, but I'm no expert. But honestly, I'd rather follow Honda engineers' recommendation than yours. You're not even making valid points. Look at point #2, for instance. I was making a point about how the builders of these engines would know what's best for them, but you counterpoint that with the transmission issue. That's not even a valid argument, and you didn't even know that Honda outsourced it, and has since then switched to another supplier due to the problem.
Yeah, I'm sick of hearing about this, because it's been discussed many times before, but I was just stating my opinion. Last time I checked, I was free to do so. It's laughable when people say "then don't read it". I will read whatever I want, and I feel the necessity to state my opinion on the matter, then I will do so at my own discretion. I don't need you telling me what to read and what not to read.
No matter what you say, I will still be filling up my car with 93 octane Shell V-power tomorrow. Good day.
06-02-2005, 05:34 AM
#74
sumbdy gettin used 2nite!
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Type-S has a higher compression ratio than the Premium model. It's best to use premium if premium is recommended; but the Type-S needs it more than the Premium.
Honestly, guys. Car companies aren't stupid -- they know people think about gas mileage when they buy cars, and if they could do without the expensive premium fuel, then they would!! It's not like they woke up one morning and said, "Damn, I feel like requiring 91+ octane on the TL today."
Honda is one of the best engine tuners as far as car manufactuerer companies are concerned. They know how to do engines right, and if Honda engineers say I should put premium in my engine, then fucking a, I'm not arguing with them.
For all you guys saying that it's okay to run regular, therefore sacrificing gas mileage, constantly putting the engine through unnecessary stress due to timing pull... are you saying that you know more about these engines than Honda engineers? Didn't think so, so shut the hell up. I'm so sick of these octane this, octane that. If you think you're so smart and go against what the BUILDERS OF THESE ENGINES say we should do, then prove it. Otherwise shut the hell up.
Honestly, guys. Car companies aren't stupid -- they know people think about gas mileage when they buy cars, and if they could do without the expensive premium fuel, then they would!! It's not like they woke up one morning and said, "Damn, I feel like requiring 91+ octane on the TL today."
Honda is one of the best engine tuners as far as car manufactuerer companies are concerned. They know how to do engines right, and if Honda engineers say I should put premium in my engine, then fucking a, I'm not arguing with them.
For all you guys saying that it's okay to run regular, therefore sacrificing gas mileage, constantly putting the engine through unnecessary stress due to timing pull... are you saying that you know more about these engines than Honda engineers? Didn't think so, so shut the hell up. I'm so sick of these octane this, octane that. If you think you're so smart and go against what the BUILDERS OF THESE ENGINES say we should do, then prove it. Otherwise shut the hell up.
It's not recommended for no dayum reason.
06-02-2005, 07:26 AM
#75
You guys crack me up!!! You buy a $35,000 car, then worry about spending a few extra bucks using the proper octane fuel. The engine was designed to run on premium fuel not regular. Yes, the computer will adjust for regular, with a penalty in performance. If you don't care about the performance loss, then why did you buy a TL in the first place? If saving a few bucks on fuel is necessary for your budget, then you bought the wrong car. You should only buy what you can afford...and that means maintaining it properly after the purchase. Next time...get a Civic!!
06-02-2005, 07:38 AM
#76
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Originally Posted by JetJock
You guys crack me up!!! You buy a $35,000 car, then worry about spending a few extra bucks using the proper octane fuel. The engine was designed to run on premium fuel not regular. Yes, the computer will adjust for regular, with a penalty in performance. If you don't care about the performance loss, then why did you buy a TL in the first place? If saving a few bucks on fuel is necessary for your budget, then you bought the wrong car. You should only buy what you can afford...and that means maintaining it properly after the purchase. Next time...get a Civic!!
I use regular, get up to 34 mpg, have a relaxing and quiet ride that I cant get with a Civic and am quite happy with it.
06-02-2005, 08:01 AM
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premium all the time. but my mpg suck its like 16-18 mpg, but i do mainly city driving.
06-02-2005, 09:58 AM
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As requested, from the Wall Street Journal (mentions a Toyota, but same concept):
Q: I just purchased a 2005 Toyota Avalon XLS, despite the recommendation for 91-octane gasoline. However, I'm now wondering how important it is to use only high-test gasoline, for two reasons. First, Sean Comey, a spokesman for AAA, was quoted in The Wall Street Journal as saying, "Regular unleaded is adequate even for cars in which the owner's manual recommends a higher octane gasoline." Secondly, the Toyota marketing literature has an asterisk beside the claim of 280 horsepower for the standard V6 engine. The asterisk clarifies that the 280 horsepower is based on the use of 91-octane fuel. Since I am a "gentle driver" and would rarely, if ever, require all 280 horsepower, can I use 87 or 89 octane gasoline without damaging my car or any warranties?
-- Ed Zebley, Seven Lakes, N.C.
A: It is safe to fill your Avalon with lower-octane fuel without harming the engine or voiding its warranty. Computerized engine controls automatically adjust fuel flow, ignition timing and other functions that keep the car running properly. Engines in older cars sometimes suffered damage from "knocking" or "pinging" caused by fuel that lacked enough octane to burn properly. When such fuel ignited prematurely it put undue strain on engine parts. Today, the disadvantage to using gasoline with lower-than-recommended octane is, as a Toyota spokesman put it, "You do lose an unspecified number of horses," and fuel economy may suffer slightly.
Q: I just purchased a 2005 Toyota Avalon XLS, despite the recommendation for 91-octane gasoline. However, I'm now wondering how important it is to use only high-test gasoline, for two reasons. First, Sean Comey, a spokesman for AAA, was quoted in The Wall Street Journal as saying, "Regular unleaded is adequate even for cars in which the owner's manual recommends a higher octane gasoline." Secondly, the Toyota marketing literature has an asterisk beside the claim of 280 horsepower for the standard V6 engine. The asterisk clarifies that the 280 horsepower is based on the use of 91-octane fuel. Since I am a "gentle driver" and would rarely, if ever, require all 280 horsepower, can I use 87 or 89 octane gasoline without damaging my car or any warranties?
-- Ed Zebley, Seven Lakes, N.C.
A: It is safe to fill your Avalon with lower-octane fuel without harming the engine or voiding its warranty. Computerized engine controls automatically adjust fuel flow, ignition timing and other functions that keep the car running properly. Engines in older cars sometimes suffered damage from "knocking" or "pinging" caused by fuel that lacked enough octane to burn properly. When such fuel ignited prematurely it put undue strain on engine parts. Today, the disadvantage to using gasoline with lower-than-recommended octane is, as a Toyota spokesman put it, "You do lose an unspecified number of horses," and fuel economy may suffer slightly.
06-02-2005, 10:08 AM
#79
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I cant believe this gay ass thread is still going on (thanks kaih 
) just realize you arent going to convince me or anyone else to fill up with regular so give it up
) just realize you arent going to convince me or anyone else to fill up with regular so give it up
06-02-2005, 01:05 PM
#80
El Presidente
Originally Posted by ou sig
I cant believe this gay ass thread is still going on (thanks kaih ) just realize you arent going to convince me or anyone else to fill up with regular so give it up
) just realize you arent going to convince me or anyone else to fill up with regular so give it uphahah
add a +1 to the 12037083520801230812 other Gas threads 