ferizzo

I was wondering if you guys could help me some. Should I get a new TLS or a used GS400? I love both cars but have recently been scared off a bit by all the tranny failures and the rattles here and there on the TLS.

I also wanted to know, on average, how much you guys paid for your 15,000 mile maintenance service and for those TL owners how much you paid for your 30000 and 60000 mile service? I posed this question earlier and no one responded so hopefully you guys can give some feedback this time around. Thanks!

matt7184

I personally would go for a GS400. The GS400 is better in every performance way to the TLS. I personally like the looks of the GS and the interior of the GS also. Only thing I can think of for the TLS is it will be brand new and maybe still cheaper than a used GS400. Id test drive both to see what fits you.

SCWells72

This depends on quite a few variables, most of them subjective. For example, how important to you is having a brand new car? Conversely, how important is avoiding the first year of rapid depreciation?

A new GS4 is more expensive than a new TL-S for a reason...it has more of what makes the TL-S a nice car...more power, better handling characteristics from front engine/RWD layout, higher quality materials inside and out, more gadgets (dual-zone climate control, auto-leveling HIDs, water-dispersing glass, etc.), yadda yadda. If you can get a "like new" used GS4 for roughly the same price as a TL-S, you're getting more car for the money.

Appearance is compeletely subjective. The TL-S is understated, to some even bland; some people don't like the GS4, especially the rear end.

The aftermarket for both cars is very good. The TL-S can be souped up with Comptech, etc.; the GS4 with L-Tuned, Swift-Racing, Rod Millen, etc. L-Tuned equipment in particular is under the original warranty if installed by a Lexus dealer.

If you're into navigation systems, the TL-S has a better nav than the original hard drive system in the pre-2001 GS4s (as of 2001 both the Acura and Lexus navs are based on the Alpine DVD system so are very similar in features).

To use the old cliche, either way you're getting a great car. Hope you have fun!

Oh yeah...and I've owned both a 2000 WDP Acura TL w/nav and (now) a 2001 Crystal White Lexus GS430 w/nav/Mark Levinson and L-Tuned suspension, so my comparisons come from experience with both cars (albeit not the TL-S proper).

city001

I don't like the chubby and boxy tail ends..and lights.. of gs
so not my cup of tea...

enterior...I like the TL better...feels a bit more sporty than GS..it's more of luxury... I personally think a souped up TL looks far better than GS... IMO

city

ferizzo

Funny how the first two replies I got here were from the Lexus owners. I like the look of both cars and initially thought I really wanted a new car. Now I am thinking that if I sold the car 4 years from now that I would lose more money had I bought a new car. I think I would be happy with either car so now its just a matter of taking into account the maintenance costs. I actually did a search and found some of the answers I was looking for regarding Maintenance. As I said before the tranny and rattle issues has scared me away a bit from the TLS but I still really like the car. I like the interior of the TLS a lot actually, maybe more than the lexus (not much though) but I am drawn to the GS4 by its sheer power and its better handling. Fortunately I have a little time to weigh the options since I don't wanna buy a new car for the winter.

daverman

Don't be fooled by the complaints you hear on this forum--most people will seek out and write forum messages only when things go wrong. What you don't see are the many people who are happily driving around with no problems.

However, the TL-S does creak and rattle more than it should. But I got all my rattles fixed, and I'm happy as a clam with my ride.

city001

u get rattles and squeeks in all cars....u should hear my dad's mercedes...lots of squeeky sounds...and the maxima i used to own...lots of sounds... when a car is made to move around...over bumpy roads..there will be sounds...

u can't expect it to be noise sealed proof..

even lexus have sounds..check their forum..

no problem with my tranny whatsoever..

city

matt7184

My car doesnt have one rattle or squeek and it is pretty old. Id be scared about the Type S problems too, especially since I feel kinda guilty telling my friends dad to get a CLS. That car is a Lemon in my opinion and the dealer is giving him such a hard time. His dad doesnt race the thing, just uses it for daily driving. I remember he has had: alternator, a tranny or two, ECU changed so far, but I know there is more. He has had it for 3 months and has only had it at home for 1 month (its been at the dealer for 2 months! ).

I personally would go with the GS for what I stated and since I love RWD and V8s.

CH-TLS

Although I like the GS4's V8, rear wheel drive, e-shift on the wheel and fanny pampering interior, we went with a new TL-S over an "off-lease" '98 GS400 with only 28,000 miles on the clock.

The TL-S had plenty of performance, a nice interior and a new car warranty. It was also $6,500 less out of our wallet.

Drive them both - you won't go wrong with either one.

glate

I have an ABP TL-S and my brother has a '00 GS 400

Damn is his car fast! You can't beat the V8 power in the mid and high-range, you get launched!

Although, personally I think the TL-S handles better than the GS, but man am I jealous of that power!

SCWells72

It's true that the GS has a pretty soft suspension stock, but L-Tuned takes care of that and gives it that 540i Sport feel. Handling-wise, you can definitely feel the nearly-50/50 weight distribution when you throw a GS around a corner, though, even more so with the suspension enhancements!

As for the squeaks and rattles, my TL had a few bad ones (one particularly annoying one in the sunroof that they never really fixed), but my GS has been perfect...neither a rattle nor a squeak ever! Of course, there are cars from every brand that rattle and squeak, and those who don't.

I've certainly seen more conversations on this board about rattles and squeaks in the TL-S than on ClubLexus.com regarding the GS4, but as noted earlier, it's the people with squeaks who tend to voice up. I'd surmise there are more TL/TL-S drivers out there than GS drivers...at least that frequent a forum like this, so I don't think we can really conclude anything from the postings...

AC

Why not a used 540i Sports Package? Drive one and you will know... Not much aftermarket support for the 540i though. You have Dinan (biggest ripoff, but what can you do) performance, and a few others for asthetics.

01SILVERCL-S

Here is my 2 bits...

The GS400 is a better car IMO. But a true comparison would be a GS300 which is a 6 cyclinder.

If I had the choice, I would have bought the GS300 except it was still alot more expensive than the CL-S.

PS. I know that I am in TL forum..

SCWells72

AC, why not a 540i Sport? Well, not for lack of trying! I was actually on the list for the M5 in a few places, but while waiting we started having substantial problems with my wife's Z3, both mechanically and in terms of the quality of service from Austin's only dealer.

About that time Lexus introduced the GS430 with a DVD-based nav system (which I was going to miss going from the TL to a BMW). I'd read that L-Tuned could let me get pretty much to 540i Sport/M5 handling, and that with a few other mods I could get pretty close to the M5 in performance, so I decided to save the $30K from the M5 and have a great ongoing dealer experience (which has certainly been true!).

Of course, about a month later when what would have been my M5 did come in, I had a few moments of regret. Considering that we're still dealing with the exact same transmission problems on the Z3 that we were dealing with then, though, that regret lives WAY in the past!

The only thing the 540i/M5 has that I wish my GS430 had is a manual tranny, but gate-shifting isn't a bad substitute at all, and I'm happy with that compromise when I'm in any kind of traffic. When I do want to take a manual tranny for a spin, I can always drive the Z3.

DJ Iceman

I hear you when it comes to Z3 problems...

The other thing you get with Lexus (or some Acura dealers) that you don't get with BMW is customer service that actually cares about you as a customer!

tea elle

this guy is obviously about as biased as you will find on here. It is utterly idiotic to call the CLS a lemon, so consider the source.

anyway, I strongly considered a used GS400 when I got my TLS.

1. I just don't like the looks of the Lexus
2. The cockpit felt tight and narrow
3. I didn't think the car handled any better than the Acura, perhaps not as well in fact.
4. sport shift is very very cool to have when you need it
5. the navi on the used Lexus is sub par.
6. warranty issue
7. there's a new GS coming soon, and then you'll have to consider the chance that you'll feel like your car is dated looking, or at least no longer a current body design.

good luck

matt7184

Actually I never called all CLS's lemons, I called the one my friends dad has a Lemon

He is waiting for another CLS now since the dealer finally said it was a lemon........

1SICKLEX

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.

WHATEVER!?!??!

SCWells72

1. Like I said before, this is subjective. Some people think it's gorgeous and others can't stand it, similar with the TL (or any other car for that matter). Judge for yourself.

2. Actually the interior of the GS4 is larger in all dimensions except rear legroom than the TL-S. It falls 0.7" short in rear legroom but is 2.1" longer in front legroom so unless the front seats are pushed within 0.7" of all the way back, the GS4 is larger in all dimensions. I know that everyone who's ridden in my GS feels like it's more spacious than my TL was. Oh, actually the trunk space is slightly smaller because of the RWD overhead.

3. Depends upon what you mean by handling. I went over this above, too, but default suspension is soft and that's easily fixed by L-Tuned. Regardless the nearly 50/50 weight distribution gives the car handling characteristics that can't exist on a front-loaded FWD/front engine car.

4. A used GS4 has E-Shift which is the same thing basically. Just a different place to tap to shift gears. Even in my new GS430 I gate shift to the same effect.

5. Agreed. One of my original points.

6. Get it certified pre-owned and have a 100K mile warranty. Done.

7. Considering that the TL goes through substantial changes every other year, I wouldn't let this affect your decision. '98-'99 TL had a four speed and "sub-par nav;" '00-'01 didn't have Type S package or memory settings; if indications are correct there's a manual tranny and maybe more HP on the way next year or the year after, not to mention an '04 complete rework, which coincidentally is the same year the new GS is supposed to come out.

Since you brought this up, aren't your points 1-4 completely based on bias?

evolaerok

Go with the GS400, If you want to go mod crazy the GS will fit you. Only think is modding the GS can be expensive. Oh and the GS is way faster than the TL-S out of the box....

AC

SC, I hear ya bro! I was on the list to get an M5 as well, but the dealer kept ****in my dates from 3 months to 8 months to 11 months, so I said screw it.

I had a brand spanking new Z3 as a loaner (it had tiptronic), man, I swear in just 40 yards of driving out of the dealer, my tranny died. No kidding! So I understand what you mean by sorry @SS trannies on those.

So far, nothing wrong with my 540i (knock on wood pretty freakin hard). Hard to say what will happen in the near future (since I've done Dinan crap, suspension, exhaust, and let alone aftermarket xenon angel eyes). The GS430 was pretty "neet" inside, I loved the interior but I guess coming from a 540i I felt the exterior styling was just ok. I considered trading my 540i in for a GS430 L-Tuned but still felt that the handling wasn't as good, maybe just me.

Back to the topic, between the two cars, I would hands down take the GS4 depending on low mileage, certified, etc.

Guest

Right about here is when I became suspicious. Why ? Well, considering that you are looking at a one-year-old model (TLs) as opposed to a four year-old model, how can you "strongly consider" a car that you don't even like the look of ?! I could see if the GS was a brand-new sight unseen model that you saw when walking into a Lexus dealer to inquire about, THEN decided that you don't like it, but judging from your above comment, you don't say "well, I don't like the rear, but the front is really nice", you just say you don't the looks of the car. So why would you even be considering a car that you wouldn't want to be seen in and spend over $30k for ?? And if you're concerned about Lexus reliability (i.e. warranty issue) then obviously you've never read a thing about the company or know it's history.

bloo_tls02

That GS is a swet ride. Test drove it and you cant feel a single bump on the road! I ran into the same problem when looking for my car. My final decision was $$.
Safe to say i ended up buying the TLs......great bang for the buck!

TWong

I also considered a used Lexus GS, but...

- Why drive around in a GS400, knowing that there's a badder as@ GS430 out there.
- In the MA area, lot's of GS's, lot's of old men driving 57mph.
- And to get within ball park, you need a 4yr old car? That's a tough choice. I'd get a 4yr old 540.
- Fat RWD tires in NE snow.
- Un-mod TL blends in well on freeways.

Guest

There's probably about one GS for every 10 TL/TLSs in Boston, those things are everywhere.

SCWells72

Another thing is that while I see quite a few GS300s, GS400s and GS430s are quite a bit less abundant on the roads.

With regard to this statement, why get a TL when there's a TL-S, or a TL-S when there's a GS4, or a GS4 when there's an M5, etc.?

Actually performance-wise the GS430 doesn't have much of an edge over the GS400. It has a bit more torque (same HP), but it also has a heavier engine. Drive them both and I bet you wouldn't really be able to tell any difference...

Las Vegas TLS

Like everyone else, I asked the same question. Some things I found out where that alot of 2 or 3 year old cars now days that are sold are "post-lease". Meaning someone drove it for 2 or 3 years and traded it in for ?
What I found out is the average car owner out there does not take care of a cars very well. I attribute most of the neglect to people just not having enough time in the day. People are very busy and as a result the new car is neglected. Ie... oil changes, break in period, alot of sudden starts and stops, tranny.....
On top of that reason I believe people in general people who lease cars don't take care of them as well. If you bought a new car for alot of money and new that you where going to get ride of it in 2-3 years would you?? I think the problem is compounded when you add those two together.
My final thought is......if you are going to keep a car for 2-3 years lease the vehicle. 3-5 years, buy used. More than 5 years buy new.
It is very difficult to compare a new car with a used car how ever you look at it.

Mario

If you are going to get a used car, make sure you get one with the extended warranty. I agree with Las Vegas TLS, I used to lease an Audi A6 and I honestly drove the car hard knowing that I would give it back to the dealer in a few years.

With all that said, I think the comparison is a little uneven because you're comparing V8/RWD with a V6/FWD. RWD almost always outhandles FWD because of pure physics (FWD front wheels have to turn and lay down the power). Taking a quick corner on the TL-S is just not as good as in my wife's BMW, the TL feels relatively clumsy and bulky. While we're talking about being clumsy, I'm sure all you guys know that the turning radius on the TL sucks very bad.

I think you should also test drive a used 540i if it fits your budget. Let's be honest, neither the GS or TL is a looker (the GS looks a little more German, TL just looks so Japanese), the 540 just have a more sophisticated and cleaner body sheet. Not a big fan of the fender bulges on the GS, seems unnecesary. Just to be fair, the new TL front-end isn't great either. Design is always subjective, so don't flame me for what I said.

I got the TLS because it fits my budget at the time and my wife absolutely hates used cars. Final word would be go for the GS, but test drive the 540i.

ferizzo

Sorry it took so long for me to reply. I would like to keep the car between 3-5 years. I don't want a GS3 because the overall performance is not great for the money (still a great car). A used GS3 is not much cheaper than a used GS4 of the same year so I rather spend a little more and get better performance. Budget-wise I won't be able to mod much (especially if I get the Lex), which is another reason why the GS3 is out.

Someone mentioned "Why drive around in a GS400, knowing that there's a badder as@ GS430 out there" and I agree with SCWells72 that the performance isn't different at all. As a matter of fact I read/heard that the 400 is .1 seconds faster 0-60 and .1seconds slower in the 1/4. They are essentially the same car. Also, all cars go through some redesign every couple of years so I can't get caught up with that since there will always be something better, faster or newer out there.

I would consider a 540 but I think I will wait 5 years (when I make more money) and get an M5 (depending on how it looks 5 years from now). Also I just read and hear how bad BMW dealers treat customers and how the cars are expensive to fix and break frequently (AC I know you have a good one and I am knocking on wood for you as well).

Should I get the TLS I would probably save a little money initially which would go to a RES and the Comptech springs and thats about it. I tend to drive somewhat hard I so I am afraid I might be more prone to experiencing the issues of rattles and/or the tranny. Not to say that this is the reason for people's problems but I think it raises the chances. And I do understand that all types of cars will have a few with problems but from what I understand Toyota/Lex and Honda/Ac are the top two brands. I feel I can't go with wrong with either one. Initially I was gong-ho about getting a new TLS but my girlfriend might get an accord and I thought that it would be nice to have the best of both worlds since the accord is similar, yet different, to the TL.

The GS4 would need to be 99-00 and preferably under 25k miles. Don't care about the Nav because I won't be getting one whether I get the TLS or GS4. The GS would need to be certified and the TLS new. I've seen a 99 GS4 w/16200 miles for 34000 certified (I need to check it out and drive it!) here in MA. Sorry for the long post but just trying to answer/comment on everyone's insightful and helpful posts. Thanks for reading!

city001

a used is never better than a new car..

and GS model will change soon..if u r not gonna keep the car for long...the resale value of the GS will drop a lot when the new model comes out.. after u purchase it..

how much r u paying for the GS400?
and the TL-S?

if the GS400 price is cheaper...then u can consider it..

regarding to someone's comment on the GS400 looks.. and someone mentioned it biased...
yes...it's to each's own taste..he has a voice in what he likes and dislikes...
I like the IS300 a lot better than the GS looks...the two circular lights of the GS in the Tail...just looks out of place...
the IS one....sits in quite nicely..

I thought of Lexus Gs before I bought my type S..but the longer I look at it..the more I dislike it...

If people here don't like what other's voiced...then u shouldn't be in a Forum in the first place

peace

city

Guest

That's a blanket statement, there is much to consider such as how used the vehicle is (3 months or 3 years ?), as a 3 month old vehicle has already swallowed initial depreciation and luxury taxes. Price is another factor as I'd obviously take a used TLs over a new Civic. Reliability and warranty also account for a difference, as a used vehicle with either an extended or current warranty that has excellent reliability isn't necessarily worse than a brand new vehicle with a high rate of repairs (regardless of whether it's covered, your time spent bringing it in and waiting is never reimbursed).
The resale value won't drop alot, the sticker price of the preceeding year is usually hit hardest, i.e a 2003 GS usually causes a 2002 in-stock GS to come down in price in order to make more space in inventory. Also, the new model GS will be out in late 2003 as a 2004.

ferizzo

I'm curious on why you think a used car is never better than a new car?

Also, all cars change and the TLS will eventually change as well(probably at around the same the GS4 will - maybe 2004). I plan to keep the car for at least 3-5 and probably more. I am interested in resale value just in case something would make me have to sell the car immediately (probably not but who knows). If you think about it, the TL has been pretty much the same since about 99 (only changes I can think of are the headlights, tail light color, and the 35 hp/16 lb torque - maybe the 6 in-dash CD changer) while the GS had a pretty major redesign in 98. Every other Acura product is changing now anyway (integra - now the RSX and both the RL and NSX are getting V8's with some other minor changes I am sure. Japanese cars seem to change all around the same time to compete against each other. Nissan/Infiniti has had their changes this year as have Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura.

Personally I like the looks of the GS and TL so that isn't much of a factor.

Mario

I think what the guy meant was that there are too many hidden variables to deal with when a car has been used by someone else, was it abused or involved in an accident. There is that small possibility that there are things you can't "see" even with proper inspection. Not to say that new cars don't have problems, just ask me about my TL-S. Luckily, just minor ones.

But again, if you get a certified Lexus or BMW, you should be safe in case something breaks down. That's what happened to my friend when he bought a used certified (w/extended warranty) MB. A few months after the he bought, there was something wrong with the engine and the dealer ended up rebuilding the whole thing w/o charge. He told me that MB mechanics are that way, they go overboard when it comes to fixing their cars.

Go for the Lexus ferizzo.

1SICKLEX

Honestly besides the 2 cars being pretty fast I cannot really SERIOUSLY even compare the 2.

50k new (hell 33k certified)
33k new
RWD
FWD
V-8
V-6
Long wheelbase
short wheelbase
No platform sharing
Accord platform sharing
Can mod to the T
some mods
The 2 cars drive TOTALLY different. I have driven both EXRTENSIVELY, besides price, the 2 cars are TOTALLY Different.

I have got to be missing something here as I am TOTALLY confused. And no, I am not putting anything down, but the cars MAJOR features as so different. I am not talking about looks inside/outside either.

city001

yes..even if it's certified...u don't know if it was taken good care of...

break in period...hard driving...etc...late maintenance..

even certified..doesn't mean anything.... unless u know the DRIVER personally...

That's What I meant

city

city001

USED also means...machinery on the vehicle are wearing down....getting old...rusting up.... will need replacement sooner than a NEW...

which u have to go in for more fixes...replacements than a newer vehicle.. remember that. U'll end up spending more money, time..

why are there so many USED vehicles after 2-3 yrs? and lease? because people don't want to put up with the hassle of bringing the car in for major repairs...maintenance..

people want to use NEW things... that's how I see it..

city

SCWells72

That's true to an extent, but remember that the cars we're talking about have a pretty good history of being solid for 100+K miles. Sure, normal wear components like tires, etc., have to be replaced, but if you find a used GS4 (or TL) that's been well taken care of, it's really not that different from new. And you avoid the steep first-year depreciation!

tea elle

It never fails....people seem to lose sight of what the man who posted a thread was looking for in the first place. TED!....what the f is wrong with you? You are "suspicious"? of what???? I'm giving my OPINION, THAT'S WHAT THE GUY WANTED!!! O.K. TED...I'll address your "suspicion" about me:

I considered the Lexus because I really wanted to give it a chance. I've never loved the looks of the car, and I didn't really considered it as a new car choice because it was too expensive for me. But once I knew it was time to get rid of my Legend, it was a good time to consider the GS pre-owned. Why? Well, partly because I am not someone who would consider getting American, Swedish or a BMW 5 series because I know how unreliable they tend to be after just a few years. And, partly because I much prefer higher end Japanese cars, and that narrows the field quite a bit. Happy now, TED?

AND BY THE WAY.....I thought the cockpit felt narrow in the Lexus. That was what I said the first time.

Lastly, the reference to the CLS as a lemon was ridiculous. I haven't bothered to re-read that comment, but I sure thought that was what was being said.

tea elle

You need to re-read what your wrote about the CLS. You seemed to be calling it a Lemon. That would be an absurd statement, particularly coming from a LEXUS OWNER!

By the way, the SC is such a pretty car (women always look great in them).

Guest

The reason I was "suspicious" (which is MY OPINION) about your intent is simply because I've never heard of someone purchasing a rather high priced vehicle (mid -30s minimum for 3 yr. old model) even though they "just don't like the looks" of it (unless they have money to burn). You then mention that the price was too expensive, but when it becomes cheaper it also becomes more attractive (the looks, not the price)?? And if you read the guy's post he said he loved both cars, why do you feel that mentioning a car's looks would have helped him make a decision ? And although the cockpit may have felt narrow, in reality the interior is more spacious.
That's great, you give me $hit about getting off topic then post this, yeah that was helpful