Driving in the canyons in Beverly Hills last night in a very steep canyon with the windows down and the radio off, I could very clearly hear pinging. Anybody ever, ever heard this? My car's got 2,000 miles on it and it has been perfect in every way, until now.

I'm going for a drive tomorrow morning with the service manager at Keyes Acura so he can hear it. Maybe this 91 octane limit is the problem,but I doubt it. What do you guys think?

 

Just for kicks, I went through a tank of 87 octane and did not notice any pinging, although the engine seemed a bit reserved, and somewhat smoother. I'm very sensitive to pinging because my previous car required high-octane and, without anit-knock sensors, would definitely ping without it. My TLS has not had any problems in 3,700 miles with California standard 91 octane (Chevron).

 

where was the nose coming from, it could be a bad reaction from the gas, but maybe you ran across something earlier like hit a pot hole to hard that maybe engaged the noise??

 

No, didn't hit anything.

 

MAP sensor, knock sensor, ECM problem, BAR sensor, there are tons of things.

 

Ususally the quality of gas, did u use a different brand last time you fillled up?

Try a Fuel Injector cleaner than fill up with premium, that should work.

 

Hard to understand how it could be the quality of gas in a car with a knock sensor and an ECM. I had to run some low octane disco gas one time and even under load on a hot day I heard no ping.

 

Note: Check the www.acura.com website and you will see they say the TLS should get 92, where as the CLS should get 91. However, I’ve never pinged with my tests of low octane fuel – the car just had lousy power. I’ve been running octane tests for close to a year now…

If you don't get "helped" over at Keyes you could eliminate the "octane" issue by....


Going to the 76 station at Bundy and San Vicente for 100 racing gas -- it will scare you to see the price, but if you only add a couple of gallons on a low-tank, you would sure have some proof to go on (if the pinging goes away – you just tell Keyes et al that the problem is octane related…)

There is also the Canyon Service and Detail in Santa Monica (go down San Vicente to 7th (if you're down near the beach or WLA) and they have 100 for a bit less than 76. As a note, they have been out as of late. I put in a few gallons, and there is a difference (for me -- placebo or not)... It is the only way I can smoke my sticky tires

Address:

Canyon Service & Detail
507 Entrada Dr
Santa Monica CA, 90402
310-454-2619



100 Octane is the drink of choice for Southland speedsters.

"Brian Clark , owner of Canyon Service and Detail in Santa Monica, says that for high-performance cars there really is a difference between 100-octane and any other standard fuel. Canyon Service, one of about a dozen high-octane dealers in the Southland , sells 225 gallons of the Union 76 "super-super" every week. Not all luxury and sports-car owners buy a full tank. "Most buyers will add a gallon or two of the 100 octane to a 92 octane fill-up to create the perfect blend, "Clark says. And, like Carbo-loading for a desk job, even a blend is a little rich for the average car."

 

One or two gallons in a 17 gallon tank won't do squat! A 50/50 blend will raise the octane to 96.

In our cars, thre engine wil not advance spark beyond the map settings for 91 or 92 octane - it will produce optimal power and economy with that recommendation.

Plus, racing fuel is not blended for our cars, does not have adequate additives, and ecause it is low volatility, burns at a slower rate. Use enough of it and you will surely cook a valve.

This is the kind of boy-racer untutuored advice that causes people to ruin a good car.

And, also IMO, the reason that so many mods "feel" better, but do not test better. The power of suggestion ("I spent $$$ for racing fuel and now I feel like a racer) is a strong persuader, but an inaccurate one.

Unless you feel like replacing heads all the time, stay clear of racing fuel, and especially Aviation Gas (another "mod" I have seen in chat rooms).

 

My father's truck had that problem, from improper fuel/o2 ratios in his valves... this caused explosions in the engine valves... I am no engine buff, but this could be one thing.... he tried switching the fuel octane to no avail...I'll talk to him tonight and see what he fianlly found out... i'll try to post later...

 

Hmmm... funny, I've used higher octane in my cars (as in 100 octane fuel) and never had a problem (Some had 13:1 compression – I built a lot of engines. At the time, there was not detonation sensors to retard timing, so running lousy gas was a ping-ping-ping day for me.



If you only have 2-4 gallons in the car's tank and add 2-4 gallons of 100 octane -- you are going to get at least an octane number that is higher than the current 91 -- what's so wrong with a diagnostic tool???

Are you telling me that one tank of a blend is going to blow the car up. At least it would indicate that the problem was octane related.

If you work for Honda/Acura and happen to know the exact retard mapping algorthm for the PGM-F1 I would appreciate it.

BTW -- my dad who used to "race" planes and had a number of planes (including an AT-6), used to fill-up his Porsche 911E with Av Gas -- this was in the pre-unleaded days. I'm talking 70s and his E was a 1969 model. Car was sold by estate and engine was great. He did it all the time -- so you tell me...

 

My car pings also. I only use 93 in my car... Hmmm. I believe this is also called pre-ignition. But why is it happening?

It happens when I'm driving leisurely, and in automatic mode, usually with the A/C on. When I'm driving hard, in ss mode, no such problem.

Now, that there is more than one person having this problem and given the fact that we (acura-tl members) represent only a fraction of the people who own this car, it maybe time to goto the dealer and see what's up? Hmmm...

Please try driving in this manner and sound off if you hear it...

Thanks...

 

From Road Rage:
Dead wrong again...


For those of you that think I want you to blow up your engine -- check out the following link to the 76 gas link.

http://www.76.com/cgi-bin/b2cpt01/sc...1&catoid=-8318


Excerpt:

"Competition 100 (unleaded) is designed for high performance street cars, race cars, watercraft, motorcycles, etc. In fact, engines with compression ratios as high as 14 to 1 will benefit greatly from this clean-burning specialty fuel.
Controlled front end volatility provides freedom from vapor lock when you're on the hottest tracks and roads. A sophisticated additive keeps port fuel injectors, carburetors and intake valves clean. This unique fuel is formulated for all engines and blends with any street gas"


BTW -- the guy at canyon sells the gas to a ton of people driving CLS/TLS, M3. M5, Ferraris (too many to name), and other vehicles. The day I did a 1/8 tank + 4 gallon mix, a new 2001 M3 was filling-up.

 

I'm starting to wonder if there ARE CLS owners that are just NOT reporting the problem (but then again, we seem to report any problem for "sharing"/"whining").

Did they increase ("REALLY" increase) the TLS requirement?

Could someone look in their TLS manual -- the "official" Acura site (www.acura.com) has 91 octane listed in the specs for the CLS, but 92 for the TLS...

So, now I have seen 2 people with pinging (with TLS' [I presume]) and so far no CLS complaints...

 

I just spoke with my dad like i said, he had the same problem, he took the car to the dealer and and they said that the spark plug wires were too close together, and when one would fire, it would creeate a "secondary spark" that pre-ignited the other plug....
So,that is what happened to him.... if it were my babied tl-s it would be @ the dealer yesterday.

 

That would do it -- however, on our car the "wires" are not high voltage wires as on older vehicles. Each spark plug has its own coil, so the old "spark-over" that happened with regular/conventional high voltage wires (especially old, worn out ones) doesn't apply to the TLS/CLS and other cars with one ignition coil per cylinder. (A small transformer/module is sitting on the back of each spark plug in the TLS)

 

same prob here. brought it to the attention of South Coast Acura's service and the guy just dismissed it saying the TLS's knock sensor should handle. and since no warning lights have gone up they didnt wanna try to figure out what was goin on. punks. but i'm getting it checked out tomorrow at weir canyon since they're closer by and they seem to want my business. when i brought it up in the forums a couple months ago nobody seemed to be having the same problem and i thought i was the lone person with this prob. Hopefully Acura has been seeing pinging problems and has a fix for it. i'll post something as soon as i find out whats up.

 

Cars ping, never heard a car get hurt from pinging, hell my car (I remember this) was pinging for a week once no problem I just did what I wrote the first time.

Pinging will happen, on new cars I dunno but if you take it to the dealer and tell him it's pinging 9/10 times they'll say it's natural and nothing is wrong.

 

The part that is INTERESTING is the part about no reports (as of yet [lest I speak too soon]) from the CLS folks...

The fact that my car has never pinged, even on low-test, makes me wonder if they [Acura] did change the timing map in the TLS (hey, I can wonder). And why did they spec 91 for the CLS, but 92 for the TLS?

If my car started pinging, and it didn't go away with a different gas (or test blend), I would be looking for a good dealer. That is NOT ok in when the problem is manifested in only a "FEW" vehicles..

 

I'll ask my Cl-S bud if his car pings......

 

Thanks -- I left a question over on the CL/CLS forum to see if the problem is localized to the TLS or if people (with CL/CLS) just haven't commented on it yet...

 

Here is the link to the CLS "ping" query over on the Acura-cl forum.

Look for yourselves, and draw your own conclusions...

(I sure think you folks not in CA are lucky...)

http://www.acura-cl.com/cgi-bin/ulti...=010544#000011

 

My CL-S does not ping even when California moved super unleaded to 91 octane. My owner's manual recommends minimum of 91 octane. It says you can use a lower octane fuel, but the performance will be reduced. I've never tried anything less than premium unleaded.

I wonder what will happen to all those cars that require 92 octane or higher (like TL-S). There are a lot of high performance cars and I wonder how they are affected by the change to 91 octane fuel in California.

 

Don't know.... However, Saturday when I went for my "fix" of 100 (I just add in varying amounts, for "experiments") -- call it a placebo to eliminate any "judgments” -- there was a line of cars on the street waiting to come in for the stuff. They were out, and I found a "FEW" of them over at the 76 station a few miles away (paying more) and toping their cars off. I've seen M-Series, 70s muscle cars, and other "hot" cars waiting for their "mix"... I guess we're all idiots or nuts

 

I had a slight ping when I first got my car. I had to go through a few tanks of gas before it went away. I figured moisture in the tank or crappy gas from dealer or even just braking in.

The manual say not to use any additives during the break in. Someone on the thread mentioned to use.

 

EricL:

1) We were talking about our TL-S - what does a car with 13:1 compression ratio have to do with my point? Obviously some cars benefit (demand) higher octane. The point is that a car that does not will in no way benefit from it - why not 106 octane then?

2) Am I saying one tankful will blow up a car - is that what I wrote? First, a fried valve doesn't blow up - it whimpers. And my point obviously is oriented toward long term-use, not one tank. Hell, you probably could run a tank of whale piss and not blow anything up - I wonder what octane that is.

 

1 -- 13:1 has nothing to do with the TLS. I do find it interesting that there "seems" to be more TLS' with pinging (here in CA) with our 91-octane, "People's Republic of Cal" approved gas... I am not advocating some kind of incremental logic like -- if 92 is good, the 93 is better, and 94 must be better still... NO -- I am saying that I'm not quite sure that Acura didn't "allow" the TLS/CLS to take "advantage" of 92-94 octane. The 76 site specifically indicated that their gas is can be blended into "normal" gas to arrive at the desired octane. For example, most of my "tests" are about 95 octane. So, a person can go to the site (if so inclined) and just look up the table on the bottom of the octane page to figure out how much of the $$$ stuff to add just to bump up the octane a notch or two. There is the additional issue that the 100-octane that they are selling is probably making more power due to a better composition of "fractions" than the pathetic gas we get here. So, if someone (topic starter) didn't get satisfaction from their dealer, would it hurt to bump the octane up a couple of points on a low tank (to save money).


2. Check the 100-octane page on the 76-site -- they gas is approved for "regular" cars. If you think that this is not so, then I would love to see some proof. AS a note, one of the backbones seems to be down at the moment, but there is part of a faq I posted on the CL/CLS forum that related to flame front propagation as it relates to octane. It is rather generalized, so I'm sure exceptions can be made, but it seems to down play the issue in current fuels. So, I would think that 76 would be stupid to not put a caveat as to our car. I called the hot line and the guy said it was fine. (Add to that issue the following: we [our family] had a 280SEL 4.5L that got a dose of ARCO Graphite oil in it, and the engine went away a few months later -- ARCO paid for the new engine -- they paid the piper...) So, I would think that big OIL companies would be careful with what they are stating in full public view…


(I can't get the previous link up, so I found a similar gas faq -- I'll leave the url there if you care to look):

"If you are already using the proper octane fuel, you will not obtain more power from higher octane fuels. The engine will be already operating at optimum settings, and a higher octane should have no effect on the management system. Your driveability and fuel economy will remain the same. The higher octane fuel costs more, so you are just throwing money away. If you are already using a fuel with an octane rating slightly below the optimum, then using a higher octane fuel will cause the engine management system to move to the optimum settings, possibly resulting in both increased power and improved fuel economy. You may be able to change octanes between seasons ( reduce octane in winter ) to obtain the most cost-effective fuel without loss of driveability.

Once you have identified the fuel that keeps the engine at optimum settings, there is no advantage in moving to an even higher octane fuel. The manufacturer's recommendation is conservative, so you may be able to carefully reduce the fuel octane. The penalty for getting it badly wrong, and not realising that you have, could be expensive engine damage.

6.14 Does low octane fuel increase engine wear?
Not if you are meeting the octane requirement of the engine. If you are not meeting the octane requirement, the engine will rapidly suffer major damage due to knock. You must not use fuels that produce sustained audible knock, as engine damage will occur. If the octane is just sufficient, the engine management system will move settings to a less optimal position, and the only major penalty will be increased costs due to poor fuel economy. Whenever possible, engines should be operated at the optimum position for long-term reliability. Engine wear is mainly related to design, manufacturing, maintenance and lubrication factors. Once the octane and run-on requirements of the engine are satisfied, increased octane will have no beneficial effect on the engine. Run-on is the tendency of an engine to continue running after the ignition has been switched off, and is discussed in more detail in Section 8.2. The quality of gasoline, and the additive package used, would be more likely to affect the rate of engine wear, rather than the octane rating.

link: http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/octane.html

 

Got my car back, but i'm 0 for 2 in getting my probs fixed. I also had a loose belt that flapped a bit when i turned on the AC. As to the pinging, weir canyon sent their diagnostic report to acura's tech-line or techlink or whatever its called to see if acura's got an answer. They'll be getting back to me when they get an answer. Hopefully i'll hear something in a couple days.

 

Well, I think I'm pinged out... But I did save a bookmark from a link I found earlier (but my cable was messed up)...

Link to the Excerpt: http://www.hotrodder.com/kwkride/tech.html

Excerpt:

"There are four major causes of pinging. The first three are related to excessive heat.

The first is severe engine overheating. If the engine is running too hot for any reason, the temperature in the cylinders can simply be too high. In that case, some of the mixture can ignite before the spark plug fires just from the intense heat.

The second major cause of pinging is carbon buildup inside the cylinders and on the pistons. When too much carbon collects, it can reduce the size of the cylinders (increasing the compression and temperature of the cylinder contents) and retain excessive heat itself.

The third cause of pinging is a malfunctioning exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system. The EGR is supposed to send non-combustible exhaust gas into the cylinders to lower the temperature of the mixture.

How does 800-degree exhaust gas LOWER the temperature in the cylinders? Because it doesn't burn, and it crowds out some of the oxygen that would have burned and made an even hotter flame. And if that EGR is not working properly, the cylinder temperature can be too hot and the engine can ping.

And finally, incorrect ignition timing can cause pinging. The ignition timing determines when the spark plugs fire. And if they're set to fire too early, the stuff will begin to burn too early.

The use of higher-octane gas often makes the pinging stop because it has a higher ignition point. By requiring a higher temperature to make the gasoline burn, you reduce the likelihood of it "pre-igniting" somewhere else in the cylinder.


But premium gas doesn't address the underlying problem. So start by checking the EGR system, the cooling system and the ignition timing. And if none of those things fix it, then you can consider using a higher-octane fuel. "

 

try some octane booster see if that helps

 

Boy, I sound like a killjoy, however…

I posted some results -- on the currently NOT working CLS forum -- on the octane boosters and how badly they performed in raising octane.

The tests showed 104+ and NOS raising the octane by about 1 point.

???

 

Hi, I'm popping in from the www.acuramdx.org forum in search of answers re: engine pinging.

A few of us also have pinging problems, most of them without resolution (including me). Ours pings (on high-octane 91/92/93) from 1000rpm to about 3000rpm, under load.

Unfortunately, as with most of you, the dealer said "knock sensor will handle it", "they all sound that way", and "the computer would throw codes if it were not running properly". This thing sounds like a Mercedes diesel going uphill.

Switched from Shell to Chevron with slight improvement. Also interesting to note: the pinging disappeared during a recent trip to Tahoe (altitude ~6000ft) and reappeared when we got back down to SF.

Anyway, here are two fixes that people identified:

• if the "pinging" sounds like a playing card in bicycle spokes, check the throttle cable bracket positioning. it was too close to the frame and, when bent back about 1/2", the rattle/ping stopped
• BG44 fuel additive.

And here are a couple of links w/the issues. Hopefully you TL folks or us will get a dealer to acknowledge and identify the problem:

http://www.acuramdx.org/forums/showt...&threadid=2178
http://www.acuramdx.org/kb_item.php?id=15

Thanks in advance!

 

i live in colorado, and not once have I seen anything above an octane rating of 91. Does anyone who lives in CO know where i can find 92 octane or above? Maybe i will try using some octane booster, or whatever that stuff is called. I wish i lived in Cali were u can get 100 octane

anyways, back to C++ :o

 

Wow, great replies from many of you! The service manager at Keyes Acura took a drive with me and heard the light pinging that occurs around 2500-3000 rpms under load. He is going to write a tech query and let me know what the response is from Acura.

I suspect that 91 octane in California is the problem. I put in a couple of gallons with 100 octane and the pinging was gone (plus, my car seemed to really love the racing fuel). I want to try an octane boost in my next fill up. I just hate the idea of having to use an additive every time I fill up.

I'll post a new thread when I hear back from Acura.

Thanks again!

 

how much is the stuff anyhow?

 

Not sure what you're asking, so I'll answer for both possible questions....

100 Octane Unocal is $5.00 per gallon

I don't know how much octane boost costs, cuz I 've never bought it before.

 

hey tea elle,
My car is at weir canyon right now trying to figure out the pinging too. I brought it over last week and they generated a report and sent it to Acura factory technicians. They finally got a call from acura and they gonna be looking at the O2 sensor and other stuff (the O2 sensor was the only thing i could remember). But they're gonna check that out and then call up acura tech with the results and then hopefully fix the problem. Those having problems should have their service tech contact Acura, cuz I'm pretty sure Acura has had more than 1 report of pinging.

I'm glad weir canyon and in your case keyes is acknowledging there is a problem. damn you south coast for being a bunch of lazy condescending punks.

So hopefully at the end of the day i'll have a reply "PINGING FIXED!" I'll be posting later.

 

PINGING NOT FIXED! DOH!

They still dont know what the problem is. They're going to replace the knock sensor, but even that may not fix the problem and I'm stuck with a lagging integra for another day. damn this sux. does it make sense that theyre gonna swap out the knock sensor when it's just a sensor? whats causing the damn pinging!!!!! Just dont be stealing from my "260" hp.

 

I think its the 91 octane gas. Try using an octane boost to see if the pinging goes away. As I said before, I put a couple of gallons of 100 octane in my tank recently and it killed the pinging. But I'm not gonna spring for that every time I fill up.

 

considering a lot of people dont have problems with pinging even with 87 octane (cuz of the knock sensor) it could be very possible that my knock sensor is not working. and thats what they are looking at today. The service guy said that the computer is possibly advancing the timing to the point that it pings, but because the knock sensor isnt working, the computer doesnt retard the timing. Sounds like a good explanation, but only if my car is fixed.