Now, I do not want to open up another oil freak thread, but now that the dust has settled on the Great Amsoil Debate, here is some stuff I gathered from scouring my SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) monographs and publications. Of course, these are subject to analysis by the amateur oil engineers out there.....they know better.

Oils are classified in Groups, in increasing order of performance and longevity.

Group I. Cheap base oils
Group II. Mineral oils with quality additive packages. This is Penzzzoil, Valvoline, Castrol, etc.
Group III. Hydrowaxes. These are the cheapest synthetics, basically hydrogenated synthetic compunds from mineral oil. They peform better than Group II, but really do not allow extended drains or the highest protection. Castrol Syntec is a G3.
Group IV. PAO's (polyalphaolefins) These are again synthesized from mineral oil, made monomolecular, and performing much better than G3. They actually swell seals and gaskets a bit, and are often added in small amount to ester-based Group 5 lubricants to avoid leaks. They offer excellent lubrication, and often extended drain intervals. Mobil 1, Valvoline Synthetic are G4 lubes. They often have a small amount of ester (Group 5) lubes added to bolster performance.
Group 5. The best lubricants available for internal combustion engines. Esters (di or polyol are the most common) have the best shear strength, freedom from oxidation, etc. They allow extended drains with oil analysis. They are made from non-mineral sources, such as alcohols and corns, and this can entirely be sourced from domestic sources. They can cause some seal shrinkage, but this is offset by adding a G3 or G4 lube, or specific selling agents in the additive package.

Oil longevity is often measured using TBN (total base nukber), an indice of alkaline/acid balance. In a quality oil such as Redline, the TBN starts high at about 11, and stays high. As a general tule of thumb, a TBN below 2 indicates the oil is shot and should be replaced. For each 2 points above that, one can extend the drain interval by a 1-2 thousand miles or so.

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Rage On!
2002 TL-S w. Comptech header/exhaust, springs
SSR Integral A2's
17x7 45mm offset
Pirelli P7000 (Summer) 215-50/17

 

Thanks for that informative post.

So which category would Redline & Amsoil fall into?

I was talking to my service managerthe other day and asked him whether it was OK to use Mobil 1, even though it didn't match Acura's spec's. He said absolutely, so Mobil 1 its going to be!

What's your take on the various additives & engine treatments out there .... Prolong, Duralube etc??

 

Amsoil used to be a Group 5, now claims to be a Group 4, but there published literature strongly suggests it is a Group 3.

Prolong and Slick-50 are discredited products, restricted by the FTC against making the claims they previously did. They are snake oil. I have never seen an additive that had more benefits than downsides - in some cases, they ca damage the engine, sich as when some of the PTFE products clogged the oil pickup screens, causing oil starvation and engine failure. I partcipated in the teardown of an engine that had failed 5 minutes after receiving a PTFE oil additive from a national oil change chain, and we found particles of Teflon everywhere, adda thich glob blocking the oil pickup and the oil channels.

 

Ooops...Redline is Group 5. NEO oil may still be in business - they were a group 5 years ago and widely used ny GM racing. Now most racers using syn use RL or Mobil 1.

 

That was some good information. Very objective. That Amsoil thing was getting out of hand.

Does anyone here have an intelligent comment about Motul? I haven't heard a peep about this brand.

 

Motul is a French oil I think - widely used in motorcycles, as is Redline. Bikes with wet clutches benefit from the extraordinary lubrication of good synthetics. As I recall, Motul is a Group 4 with some Group 5 added in.
I do not see how it is clearly superior to other G4's such as Mobil 1, Valvoline, etc.

If you can steer me to their home website, I would be glad to check it out.

 

I stand corrected - I just checked out the site www.motul.com and they claim their oil is an ester-based lube, which makes it a Group 5, and so very likely it is a top-notch oil for our cars. They correctly state the advantages of ester-based oils over all others (contradicting Amsoil's bad-mouthing of ester-based oils, of which it originally was one!)

 

The full ester oil (comparable to Redline) is $15/liter!

They also make a PAO and ester blend for $9/liter.

For my money, if I can have a quart of Redline at the same price as a PAO/ester blend, and source it from the good ol USA, it is a no-brainer.

 

Thanks Rage! I was hoping someone here had some experience using Motul. I see a lot of comments on the VW/Audi Boards. I guess its a Euro thing.

 

Thanks Road Rage. I always like reading your posts. I'll be using Mobil 1.

 

One more oil product to research.

I don't know anything about the product other than what is on their website or from having seen it used by drag races.

I would say that based on their tests and the fact that it used in Top Fuel dragsters offers up some strong credentials.

Anyway - have a look for yourselves. http://www.synerlec.com/products.html

 

Having read the (long, but informative) oil thread previously, I can only infer that you know a ton of information about this subject. May I enquire (or even inquire - the American derivative)as to your extensive background? Fortunately, I'm in the "quart low? - throw in the "good stuff" category. But it is interesting to read this kind of data.

 

ad Rage,
since you seem to be the most knowledgeable person i've seen on the topic of oils, let me ask this: from what i've heard, synthetics like mobil 1 can be changed at 5k intervals, but based on what you say above, it seems like if they even score a TBN of 7, it would put them at around 7-14k miles between changes. Would it be safe to say that you can go much longer than 5k (aggressive driving) on something like mobil 1, or should it still be the 5k mark that i've heard from most mechanics, as opposed to the 3750m from honda oil(which really would not make that much of a diff.)?

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'02 Nighthawk TL-S
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Comptech Springs / Comptech Headers / Mille Miglia Action 17x8 Rims with Bridgestone Potenza RE730's 225/45/17 tires
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Alpine CVA-1005 Head Unit / Alpine CDA-7863 CD Player / Alpine G320 EQ / Alpine DVA-5205 DVD / Alpine NVE-N851A Navi / JL Audio XR653-CS 3-Way comps for the front powered by a bridged Alpine MRV-F407 amp / Boston Acoustics 5.5 ProSeries 2-Way comps for the rear powered by Alpine MRV-1002 amp / Dual 10" JL Audio W-6 sub powered by Alpine MRV-1005 amp / Two Alpine CHA-1214 CD Changers / 20% Tint all-around

__________________
'00 Nighthawk TL
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Aem Short Ram / Comptech Sway Bars / Comptech Springs / Cross-Drilled Rotors / Pirelli SP7000 Tires / 35% Tint all-around
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Pics of my TL and Fun/Crazy Pics

 

1) I am an EE and specialize in computer system engineering by profession
2) I have loved cars all my life and have wrenched my own rides for many years, including ground up restorations on 1961, 1967, 1972 Corvettes - I once had a summer job delivering Ferraris!
3) I am member of the SAE, and an amateur tribologist (lubrication specialist). I have reams of engineering studies on lubricants dating back to the 1960's, including the earliest synthetics which had unbalanced additive packages, and were disasters! I also have access to the SAE library of research on most anything automotive.
4) I write a column for an automotive publication, and am a contributing editor for a national high-end audio publication.

But enough about me... what about the oil question?

I think Mobil 1 can be xtended to 7500 miles without a problem. However, I recommend that you drive the car as you normally would, and at 7500 miles take an oil sample and send it for analysis. They will be able to tell you how the oil performs in YOUR car, in YOUR area, to YOUR driving style. That is the only safe way. Then adjust your change intervals to conform to proof (the test results). As the car ages, retest occasionally to ensure that a mechanical problem is not prematurely ruining the oil.

I use Redline and change at 7500 miles, but I would recommend you probably go to 10k with an oil analysis to be more cost effective.

Mobil 1 is a fine G4 product, probably more lube than any of us really needs - not sure what its TBN is - RedLine is about 11-12 new. TBN measures acid, which is formed primarily by the action of sulfur in the fuel mixing with the water byproducts of combustion (sulfuric acid). Mercedes Benz' oil analysis gizmo actually measure TBN I believe - the other oil "monitors" (such as BMW) use an algorithm using #starts, #miles/start, engine temp, etc. to predict oil life, and are much less precise.

 

Road Rage,

I don't want to impose on you, but if you have the chance you may want to check out the link below. I don't have the scientific smarts like you, but it does read well. Kind of like a very good synthetic with the Militec-1 metal conditioning properties all in one.

As of now I'm leaning to giving my car the Royal treatment. :-)
http://www.royalpurple.com/main.html

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Road Rage:

3) I am member of the SAE, and an amateur tribologist (lubrication specialist). I have reams of engineering studies on lubricants dating back to the 1960's, including the earliest synthetics which had unbalanced additive packages, and were disasters! I also have access to the SAE library of research on most anything automotive.

 

Here is a quote from Royal Purple on the availability of a 5w20 oil for the TLS. A 5w20 with a API rating of SL. I think this is the latest and highest standard to be released.

Road Rage? Can you comment on that?

Royal Purple Quote: [We have just released an API SJ 5w20 motor oil as the demand for this viscosity is growing. Currently, it is only available in 5 gallon pails but will be in quart containers with the new API SL licensing in the coming months. No need to resort to a heavier oil, RP SAE 5w20 will provide excellent performance and protection as well as offer premium fuel economy
for your 260 horse Type S.]

 

I do not plan to use 5w20 after a lot of thought and calls to my automotive cronies.

I believe 5w20 is more for fuel efficiency than anything else, and in Ford's case, it is my understanding that one of the reasons they went to this lightweight was because of oil lifter starvation in cold temps causing valve clatter.

A good 5w30 syn has the low temp fluidity needed (actually a bit better than mineral 5weights), will not thicken and thus will provide the long term fluidity of a 20 weight, and fine gas mileage. My concern about the 20w is does it provide enough protection for high rpm and the heavier loads associated with "sporting" driving? Some say yes; some say no, it will shear down and not provide the best protection for the high-load areas (bearings, oil rings, cam lobes). For most people who drive TL's, 5w20 is not pushed. For those of us who drive a car hard and want that extra measure of confidence, who knows?

I see no downside to using the 5w30 weight that was "good enough" for last year, especially until we see some long-term stats on real world performance of these lightweights.

While I generally follow the line of the manufacturer in these areas, I have in my files some historical precedents that cause me to be conservative:

1) When GM first went to the early 10w40 multigrades as opposed to SAE 30, they had a rash of engine failures caused by shearing down of 10w40. It took several years for the oil companies to get it right and for GM to recommend multigrades in all of its engines.

2) Chrsyler originally jumped on the first 5w30's that came down the pike, but engine problems later caused them to switch to 10w30 until the 5w's stabilized. At the time, none of my engine engineering friends used 5w30 in their personal cars.

So in summary, I am talking a wait and see attitude on the 5w2o issue, and I do not believe there would be any deleterious effects of using 5w30, except perhaps a bit less MPG. That is not a big issue to me, but is to a company Like Honda or Ford which have to meet CAFE standards so they can sell profitable SUV's and minivans that do not get the mileage of our beloved TL's.

 

Hey Road Rage

you're not going to start charging consulting fees soon are you ??

 

I just do what I'm told.....you couldn't afford me anyway! :-)

Not so sure about the Royal Purple (Crown Royal). It is not a pure ester, and it appears to be a hybrid of mineral and synthetic. So to claim the performance and extended drains they do, I am getting nervous about a possible "miracle" additive of unknown constituents - does anyone have any idea what is in this? I could not find adequate info on the website, other than that the "Technical" section had comparisons to an unnamed synthetic, which could have been a Group 3 hydrowax or even a blend: this makes the comparison essentially meaningless.

The jury is out on this one...

 

Yo Road Rage,

Thanks a bunch for your insights. I know jack about engine oils. So for my new TL-S, what oil and weight do you recommend? I want to drive my engine HARD after break in period is over... just 200 more miles... knowing I'm well protected by smart engine oil choice. Sounds like RedLine or Mobil 1 in 5-30w range?

By the way do you have a pic of your SSR integrals on you car? How is that offset working out for you?

 

Road Rage,

Great job with the analysis. I switched from Mobil 1 to Redline in my bike, and noticed a few more mpg and in general it does feel like it revs easier. I also switched to their Synthetic gear oil for the shaft drive.

Getting back to the car,it appears that there are other lubricants that we can look at that may enhance the longervity and performance. Synthetic Trans fluid is something that I have heard from more than a few people to be a real advantage over the regular lubes.

Any thoughts ??

 

Road Rage,

I noticed that some of the racing oil manufacturers are saying that 5w20 is being used because of the tighter tolerances in some of todays newer and especially higher performance engines.

Assuming this is true of the TL-S engine. There may be enough of a difference to effect the loads placed on the engine at higher RPMs. If that's true I would be a bit leary to use a 5w30 and risk engine damage.

Thoughts?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Road Rage:
[B]1) I am using Redline 5w30 but may switch later to Redline 5w20 if I don't hear any horrow stories.

 

I have read that 5W-20 weight oils have been available and used in Japan for some time now. If that is so, wouldnt its protective abilities at the high end of the RPm band have already been proven?? Especially In japan with all the high revving small displacment engines. I wish I could just find more info on 5W-20 itself.

As for me, If I can get some Redline 5W-20, I'll use it, till then if my dealer is not using 5W-20 which I strongly doubt they are, I'll use Mobil 1 5W-30

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Just call me..................Mr Hyde

TL Type-S Moderator
02 Aegean Blue TL Type-S with Navi
Accord Forum Moderator/Honda-Acura.net
96 Sherwood Green Accord EX

 

1) Jeez - am I that wordy - thought I answered the oil thing? I am using Redline 5w30 but may switch later to Redline 5w20 if I don't hear any horrow stories.

2) I am getting the springs put on next week - will see how the +45mm offset does.

3) No pictures - I am "digitally" challenged as it relates to pictures - too busy videoing my 3 year old!

 

No synthetic I know of has an ATF for Honda automatics - RL does not recommend theirs. The Honda ATF is pretty good, and I do not think you would see much benefit in using a synoil, even if it were available.

For manuals, it is a different story. Redlime MTL is great, used it in my NSX. Hondsa also now has an upgraded manual transmission fluid (they used to recommend motor oil).

 

Hey Road Rage,

Which spring set are you installing on your TLS? I'm trying to decide between comptech and H&R. Any recommendations? I'm looking for a softer ride. Also how much should I expect to pay for install and where?

Thanks!

 

Ruf87:
Tighter tolerance refers to ring/cylinder tolerances and vrank/bearing. It speaks to adequate oil control and comprrssion with a thin oil. The issue of hi-rpm protection is not an issue of tolerance, and I sincerely doubt that 30 wt. would be deleterious in any way.
Re: use in Japan - do they have long stretches of highway that allow frequent and extended hi-rpm operation as we do?

HappY:
I went with Comptech due to reputation and my dealer's commitment to honoring warranty of Ctech products.

 

Their highways are nothing like ours for sure. But honeslty I dont know about you but for me at 60mph RPM wise im under 1800. Cruising at 80mph Im still only at maybe 2500RPM. I dont consider that high revving at all especially with a redline that only begins at 6800. My old accord idled faster than that LOL. Actually on a cold day The Accord would idle at about 1800 RPM. The TL-S cruises at 60 at the same engine speed, that that car idled at. At 80, the accord would be wailing at about 4500 at 80. The only high rpm situation I am worried about in my Tl is when I floor it which occurs every so often, man I loved this car, and I love VTEC!!!!!! but in normal driving I dont think I push it past 4500 rpm while accelerating. Im mainly concerned about engine protection during jackrabbit starts and rapid acceleration.

Know any sites with info on 5w-20???



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Just call me..................Mr Hyde

TL Type-S Moderator
02 Aegean Blue TL Type-S with Navi
Accord Forum Moderator/Honda-Acura.net
96 Sherwood Green Accord EX

 

FYI - I found out some more details about that type of oil Royal Purple is. It is Group IV PAO based oil. Also, the total base number for Royal Purple SAE SJ motor oils is 10.5.

I also learned a few other things in the process of finding this out. Concerning seal compatibility it is ester base (diester, polyol)that cause seal swell and should be avoided with certain types of elastomers (natural rubber, neoprene). By the same token a straight PAO oil will tend to shrink seals. For this reason PAO's are formulated with a small degree of ester to provide neutral seal swell , but not to bolster performance in any
regard other than seal compatibility.

In respect to esters being the best lubricants available for internal combustion engines. It seems there are "experts" that even disagree on that point.

So who has the best performing oils for our babies? It would seem that it is up for debate and we may not know for some time.

So for me, I'm open to using either Red Line or Royal Purple. It'll depend on which is cheaper and easier to get. Right now it looks like Royal Puple is easily available in the Dallas area and cost around $5.00 per quart. The lowest price I found for Red Line is $7.99 per quart and only one place listed by Red Line's dealer listing.

So as I sip on a nice Crown Royal and 7, my TLS will be sipping on it's Royal Purple cousin. :-)

I want to thank Road Rage for lots of good data points. If it wasn't for his posts I would have probably used an additive of some sort. :-(

So thanks and I look forward to seeing more of your informative posts.

Rgrds,
RUF

 

Mr Hyde,

I did a search on Yahoo for 5w-20 and found a whole bunch of sites. It seems that everyone and their dog is coming out with a 5w-20. In all flavors too. :-)


Know any sites with info on 5w-20???
[/B][/QUOTE]