blulegend

http://www.pbase.com/blulegend/after the pics are added to the bottom after the first set of pics I posted. Click on the thumbnail for more info.

A little long for those who just tuned in. Sorry if I'm wasting bandwidth.

A better estimate needs to be done still. As of now, the car looks like it will be repaired. The estimate is at around $10k NOT including any suspension work/parts or other stuff under the sheet metal. They need to cut out the rear wheel housing which begins at the rear door frame and extends into the trunk area. Don't know what they need to do on the front end yet (strut tower included).

As far as frame damage, they keep using the term "unibody" which is confusing and probably something I still don't understand (what is the difference from the term "frame"?). The door frame dent still needs to be looked at more in depth after they take the door off (if the damage is worse they will replace the pillar (more cutting and welding). My car still needs to go on the frame machine for measurement of any frame misalignment. They said they like to see everything within 1mm, 2mm at the most.

The body shop is called Stroyer Bros. in Escondido, CA. Seems like a nice place. Actually went there today. Have a lot of Mercedes, BMW, Jags, Acuras. He showed me the work they've done on messed up cars being detailed/repaired. Very clean and high-tech. Use digital cameras to document their work and all documentation is on computer print-outs. They use a down draft? paint room for painting and a spot welding machine for spot welds. The work they do looks good and looks like new.

I also stopped my claim with my insurance company (AAA) and filed with State Farm (3rd party's). They actually seemed more helpful than my own insurance! Also repairs will take less time if repairs are to be done since the shop only needs to take photos of everything that needs supplemental paperwork instead of calling the adjuster out and waiting for approval (called "Service First" or something). I was told it was not similar to where a body shop is affiliated/owned by/loyalty to an insurance company.

Still crossing fingers for a write-off though...

VTEC Animal

To me it sounds like you're in good hands now... I'm glad that insurance thing is easier for you, and it sounds like you have a reputable shop working with you. Only time will tell whether or not they total it, I guess that all depends on how much work will have to be done to replace that A pilar. That will be very messy since the whole dash assembly will have to come out, and if they have to replace the strut tower, well, that mean even MORE work and a monster of a teardown for that I'd imagine. I'm not sure where the engine mounts are, but if they're attached to the strut tower piece of the unit body, then you've gotta yank all that too. What's going to make the difference is the labor, the parts won't be that bad (they'll be bad), but the labor will be huge, and that'll determine if your cost reaches the point of totaling the car. Keep in good contact with the insurance company, make sure they are aware that you expect depreciation compensation (you could even argue that you want a figure that is atleast 50% of the repair cost). If they add those two up and it's higher than a total vehicle replacement then they'd probably total it, add to that the fact that they could sell the remains of the car (which the rest is in really good shape) to a junkyard and they'd probably get a pretty fair amount judging on what's still good on the car.

blulegend

Talked to State Farm about deminished value payment and they said they don't pay out and no other companies do either (this is with State Farm, the 3rd party's company). They said the only way I could get it is if I go to court, which I will if I sell the car since if I'm not selling the car, I have no real need for the compensation. I might call a lawyer soon about the deminished value.

The shop said if the A pillar is not bad, they might just pull it. Can I insist on replacing it?

Bitium

That car should be totaled. trust me on this one. Tell your shop that you want it totaled and they should try to totaled the car, even if the car is fixable it will take at least a month to fixed thats at least. My guess 2 months. They are also going to have to pay rental. If I was the adjuster I would totaled the car.

blulegend

On the preliminary estimate, the date of return is set at 3/29/02. 2 months from the date of loss. Ouch. I tried telling them to total it but they keep saying they need to do the damage assessment. Also, it's obviously in their best interest to repair it. Sigh...

cl-tl

I'm not sure if the law is different where you're at but I was rearended by someone that had State Farm for insurance and I got $$ for 'diminished value'. What you have to do is get a couple of appraisals that state they would give you more except for the prior damage. Carmax is a good start because they give it to you in writing. http://www.goldcar.com/consumer/board/index.html This site is also helpful.

bigman

Damn man that sux. My first car got hit by a snow truck with me in it and i sued the living crap out of the city and got a new car plus money. But the insurance adjuster didnt come for 3 weeks.

VTEC Animal

I believe you do have the right to choose replacement. Tell them that you won't accept the repairs in that fashion.

gohawks63

The body shop cannot just arbitrarily "total" the car and aside from having to pay for a rental, the length of time it will take to fix the car will not factor in on whether it should be totaled.

I work for an insurance company, and the decision to total the car is based solely on cost. Bottom line is, what is the car worth and what will it cost to fix? If fixing reaches or exceeds the value of the car, then they'll total it. If it's close, some insurance companies might total it in the name of customer relations, especially if they figure they could pull in a good salvage price, but don't expect them to write off a car just because you don't want it any more.

I couldn't find Blue Book prices on a used 2002, much less a Type-S, but a clean '01 TL with 15K miles shows a retail price of $27K. An '02 TL-S would obviously be more than that. I could be wrong, but that damage doesn't look to cost that much.

I love my cars as much as anyone else, but if all the insurance companies totalled cars because the owners didn't want them anymore because they were hit hard, there wouldn't be any companies around, or we would all be paying even higher premiums.

The case for diminished value is an interesting one though. I believe only Georgia requires that a specific allowance for it to be made. The reason why I say it's interesting is for the following:

The insurance company's responsibility is to "make you whole again" or in other words restore your car to the condition it was before the accident. To that point, I always insist on OEM parts, even if my insurer states that aftermarket parts are just as good. My argument is that Acura parts were on it originally, so I want Acura parts on it now! My insurer suggests after market, but if the owner insists, OEM is used. You just need to be aware enough to ask. State Farm got in trouble a couple of years ago because they made the owner pay the difference between aftermarket and OEM, and they got fined BIG TIME.

With all of that said, let's say you're car is fixed, OEM parts and all, and the car is literally as good as new. So in theory, your car should be worth as much as a TL-S that was never hit.

Ah, but we all know that this isn't the case since all things being equal, all of us would choose the car that wasn't hit. So now we asked for diminished value since you're going to have to sell the car at a lesser amount since it isn't as "desireable" as the car that wasn't hit. The problem now for the insurance company is that they have paid for your car to be repaired as good as new, but now they have to pay an additional amount to compensate for the subjective opinion that the car is inferior. Which in theory shouldn't exist since the car has been restored to it's original condition.

As an employee and shareholder of an insurance company, I see the bind that the company faces. But as an automobile owner who meticulously maintains his cars, I understand the diminished value argument that an owner faces, especially if the car was flawless to begin with.

It just plain sucks and you gotta hope it never happens to you.

blulegend

Thanks for the response goaub.

Is there a "set" equation the adjuster will do to decide the economics of the repair vs non-repair or is it just what he/she thinks at the time?

gohawks63

You know it's hard to say and it varies from company to company. I'm not an adjuster (Info Technology) but I've worked closely with the claim department in our company, so I know just enough to be dangerous (kind of like those Holiday Inn commercials ).

It all comes down to what the estimate comes out to and what they would recoup on the salvage (of your old car) it it were totaled.

Most insurance companies contract out with a company called Automatic Data Processing (ADP), that owns an extensive database on car parts, costs, repair efforts and labor rates. Based on what needs to be replaced and repaired along with the effort involved and the labor rates in your area, they come up with the estimate. They then compare that with the Blue book and also by what similar cars are selling for in your area (this was done when my brother's insurance company decided to total his '95 Legend).

When getting your estimate, make sure the adjuster does a thorough inspection, here's why.

My late dad's '92 Vigor which my mom now drives was broadsided. Initial estimate was about $4,000. When she got the car back, it just didn't drive right. When they re-inspected it, they found extensive suspension damage (it was hit right at the driver's side rear wheel). I believe it ended up costing the insurance company another $2,000 and they weren't happy about it since it was getting dangerously close to being a total loss, but since they already dumped $4k into it, they almost had to just get the car fixed.

Now in my mom's case, she didn't want the car totalled because it only has 60K miles on it and is very clean and where are you going to find a comparable car for $6K?

My point is, make sure they really look over the car so that they find all of the damage.

Bitium

Well then insurance companies are very fuvking stupid. my original estimate was $9k well they ended up paying a total of $24k when the car was finish, that is $3k more than is worth.

Over $2.5k just on rental. I hate insurance companies as well as they hate me.

blulegend

HAHA. Nice way to put it. I will remember to calculate the cost of the rental and other things. I may have it taken to another shop to get two estimates.

Bitium

the estimate of one shop to another won't change much if the insurance is paying for it. At most 1%. unless they find something the other shop or adjuster didn't see. Or the prices for labor are different which is not likely.

blulegend

Another shop may choose more replacement versus repair than another.

Bitium

Good point, but not likely.

blulegend

What car was in the shop and what rental did they get you?

I want to move out of this beat-up Camry and into a more comfortable car. I will ask State Farm on Monday for a more "comparable" loaner.

As far as totalling my car, every one I've shown the pics to think it's a goner. They also warned me about the strut tower like someone else did on this board. Dunno if I can trust this shop (though it seems like they do excellent work) to not try to slightly low-ball the estimate and then add on expensive supplements later once the repairs commence.

Bitium

My 99 TL, not as bad as your but a lot of suspenssion damage, plus the tranny cooling lines got hit and made my tranny overheat. Insurance pay $4,400 for a new one. Acura install the new one and not the shop. One of the expensive supplements.

I got like 4 different rental cars. All over $30 a day and it took 2.5 months to fixed the car.

That is were the big money comes, specially under the car damage

cl-tl

I agree but that's not the way it is in the real world now. I went to three different dealers when I wanted to trade my previous car. And all of them reduced my trade in due to diminished value. (The car looked perfect to me) If the dealers didn't try to pull this stunt I would not have a problem. I too work for an insurance company and had never heard this term. So I went down and talked to one of our adjusters and when I mentioned diminished value they looked at me like I said a dirty word. Like I said I would not have pursued it if the dealers hadn't started it first. I think it's just a new trick to give you less on your trade in since I've never encountered this before when trading in a previously repaired car.

gohawks63

Whoever estimated the damage originally is an idiot if they didn't see that damage originally. You're right, it should have been totaled.

Bitium

Progressive.....well they couldn't tell the tranny was bad until it was driven and it couldn't be driven until it was repaired, but that was just $4,400.

gohawks63

Go back and read my post, I agree that it's not like that in the real world. It's a catch-22 situation. If given the choice, anyone would rather buy a car that wasn't hit versus one that was, no matter how good we thought the repair was done, it's "damaged goods". As for the insurance company's perspective, they figure that the car is repaired to the same condition it was prior to the accident. Someone's perceptions (i.e. Diminished Value) are not really covered in your policy (unless you live in Georgia). By paying to have your car repaired, then paying you diminished value, one could argue that you would constantly be paying more on claims than the car is worth and we would be totaling perfectly fine cars left and right.

I wasn't defending the insurance company, I was merely giving both sides of a situation that really sucks.

blulegend

I am not claiming against MY policy. I am claiming against the other person's policy. If they end up repairing my car and I take it to trade in, I will get an attorney for diminished value payment. Are there instances where you have seen your insurance company pay out on this type of claim?

cl-tl

What I would do is just go to a couple of places that buys cars. ( I looked up Carmax and the closest is L.A., not in San Diego) Don't tell them it was in a wreck and see what they offer. If they reduce what they would pay you due to prior damage ask them if they would put that in writing.(Carmax does) Then call up the other guys insurance and say you want to submit a claim for 'diminished value'. Then fax in your appraisals to them for review. I did and got an extra $1500. from his insurance, State Farm. Forget the lawyers, I couldn't get any to return my call. Probably not enough money in it for them unless you call up front right after the wreck and are claiming bodily injury. In Texas there is a two year time limit for diminished value claim. No telling what California is. Better hurry.

blulegend

Great, thanks for the tip.

Also, was the $1500 enough to cover your losses from selling? Or did you not sell the car? Also did you wait till the repairs were done or did it right away?

cl-tl

Not really, but then again when you're trading in a car you never win. My story was; went to one dealer (lowballed me w/ D.V.), went to Carmax to verify story (1st appraisal in writing), went to second dealer which offered more than Carmax (to buy outright) but still way under all the book values (again due to D.V.) Since I bought my CL from the second dealer he backed up my story on D.V. to the adjuster that came out for a second look. I guess I could have negotiated for more than the $1500. but I had already bought my CL and asked the salesman as a favor to pretend they were holding my car pending the sale. In reality I'd already signed my trade in over. So I didn't want to rock the boat and have the insurance company find out I didn't even own it anymore. Don't worry about any repairs just get the cash. Like I said I personally saw nothing wrong with my car. It was the dealers that wouldn't give me fair value based on their perceptions, not mine.

gohawks63

Whether it's your policy or theirs, I believe that most companies don't cover diminished value for the reasons I mentioned in prior posts, unless of course it's required by law.

As I mentioned I don't work in claims so I can't comment specifically and I'm sure if we ever did, it probably won't be advertised, otherwise everyone would claim it.

I know that our company has several body shops that they recommend, if you end up using one of these shops, the work is guaranteed for the life of the car, EVEN if you sell it. I think this is their way of claiming that the car is as good as prior to the accident.

Since I work for the company, I figured I should be insured with them so I'm also a policyholder, and I experienced a claim about a year ago.

My wife had a parking lot accident about a year ago and caused about $2,500 damage to the '98 Pathfinder we had at the time. The truck needed a new bumper and a right front fender. Fortunately the airbags didn't deploy.

I ended up using one of the recommended shops, not so much because they are recommended, but more so because I've used them before and was pretty happy.

At first they told me that they would look at aftermarket parts. I asked them that I can request OEM, and he agreed, he said "as long as you request it, I just have to start with aftermarket, if you demand OEM, then that's what we'll use".

Anyway, the car came back fine, but after 6 months I noticed that the paint was cracking near one of the foglights, so I took it back to the bodyshop. After looking at it they told me they would repaint the entire bumper, no questions asked. It seems that there wasn't enough flex agent in the paint.

I never had to call back the insurance company. The bodyshop also paid for a rental from Enterprise. We ended up trading the Pathfinder when we bought my wife's Land Cruiser, and the dealer never brought up the fact that the car was fixed. I never mentioned it to them, and they ever brought it up. I know I got a fair trade though.

It sucks that I had to take it back, but they took care of me, and not once did I mention that I was also an employee of the insurance company.

My point in sharing this is that I believe these "lifetime guarantees" are the insurance company's way of assuring that the repaired car is "as good as new".

No matter what they try though, it doesn't take care of a subjective opinion (as I myself would have), about buying a previously repaired car.

Sorry I couldn't help more, although I will ask around.

blulegend

I have read that if you claim against their policy, and not your own they cannot deny payment simply because they don't cover it since I am not under any contractual obligation to them. If I decide to sue the 3rd party, their insurance will need to cover them under the liability coverage.

All companies make you aware of this fact. BUT all the recommended shops by the DEALER say they guarantee the work 100% for life as well. I told them my insurance company told me what you just said and they said BS, the insurance company is not the one who actually warrantees the work, its the shop.

Thanks for the help. You guys are great.

Bitium

You are right goaub.

I had a rear end accident 2 years ago, but it was in another city for from home, the car was not drivable, so I had to get a shop in that city. I used the shop progressive recomended. They didn't do a good job. The paint didn't match as far as I could tell. I drove the car like that, but contacted the shop that the paint didn't match. They said bring it back and we would fixed it. I said OK. Time when by and since the shop was far away, I did not get a chance to go back and fixed it. Then I got into another accident and I told that shop (local) if they could redo the old job were the paint did not match. They told me I had to talk to progressive. I talked to them and since the shop was one of progressive shops, the work was warrantied for life. They did ask me why did i take so long and I told them that I had contacted it the shop, but I did not get a chance to go back and fixed it, since it was too far. Once the shop examine the prior damage, they found out that it was a really poor job and that they should have replaced and not tried to fixed some of the parts, plus my wheel on that side was rubbing. they local shop said that it was a safety hazard and that they needed to redo the entire job. They did and progressive ended up paying like another $6k for that. so it was a total of $10k to fixed the car. The wheel does not rub anymore.

Bitium

is not BS...the insurance does give you a lifetime warranty for the repairs if used one of their shops. A least progressive. Look at my story on top.

I also have the certificate that says so.

gohawks63

Correct! In order to become a preferred body shop there are certain agreements that must be reached between body shops and the insurance company.

Yes the body shop may guarantee the work, but for the sake of customer service the insurance company should stand behind the repair since it was done by one of their recommended shops. Bitium's example is a good one, in addition, what happens if a body shop goes out of business? If all you had was the shop's guarantee, you'd be $hit out of luck.

In most cases (at least with my company), for a body shop to become preferred they have to have a certain level of repair equipment (i.e. frame machine) so that you don't have "Bubba" repairing cars out of his garage. In addition, there is some level of training that the techs must have received, and of course in return for all of the business that these shops get, they must do the repairs at a pre-agreed upon rate, typically cheaper than you or I would pay if we just walked in off the street.

Now in order to put your mind at ease that the shop is qualified, the insurance company stands behind the repair done by the shop. If the complaints start coming in regarding a specific body shop and that results in increased "re-repairs", you can bet that the insurance company will revisit that body shops "preferred status".

As to your comment: That applies to things like medical payments or collision coverage, not diminished value, unless your state requires that coverage to be offered. For example, regardless of whether or not you carry collision coverage, if you're hit and it's the other party's fault, their insurance company has to repair the vehicle to the same condition it was before. Without getting into an explanation out of a CPCU (Certified Property Casualty Underwriter) course, the opposing insurer has to provide coverage that is common on a standard auto policy (i.e. liability, collision, medical payments, etc.).

An allowance for diminished value is not part of standard auto coverage.

blulegend

Thanks for the clarification. True, what if the shop goes out of business. Anyway the shop I have it at is not a AAA shop but is a State Farm qualified "service first" shop. Don't know if that means State Farm will warranty it, but I plan on selling the car once I get it back anyway. I put so much hard work into it that I feel it will be tainted forever (not to mention possible repair flaws)

Disclaimer: I am not trying to argue, just discuss.

Diminished value may not be part of statndard auto coverage, however I am trying to reclaim losses/damage. Under the insurance contract I would not be able to ask for this. However, I think that I can sue the 3rd party for any damages, be it to my car (don't need to since the insurance company is paying for it), or me (bodily injury), or whatever (e.g. diminished value). Their insurance company can make them pay me directly, but I think the insurance company is obligated to defend their insured or pay on behalf of their insured. I think the difference is that I will not be dealing with the 3rd party's insurance company, the 3rd party will. I will, hypothetically, be suing the 3rd party directly.

After using the term "sue" so many times I feel a little dirty. Anyway, I will try what cl-tl did and see how far I can get.

As far as bodily injury, I will be seeing a chiropractor regarding my back and neck (minor discomfort at the computer, since I'm a web designer, this is important), and I have discovered I have suffered a spontaneous pneuothorax (AKA collapsed lung) from the accident. I have had this occur once before while doing nothing. The doctor today said the accident likely aggravated it to occur again since after you have one occurence, you are likely to have another. I noticed discomfort about 1.5 weeks ago and thought it would resolve on it's own, but since it's been over a week now, I decided to get a chest x-ray. The pneumo was still there, fairly small, but the doctor estimated it has likely resolved quite a bit from its original size. I hope the accident doesn't trigger a string of these spontaneous pneumos, because if it happens too many times they will need to operate for a more permanent solution.

gohawks63

No problem, I didn't view this as an arguement, just a sharing of knowledge.

Since you were injured, you may be entitled to "pain and suffering" compensation. Sometimes the insurance companies lump it into the entire settlement. If you get a check for just the meds and prop damage, I'd question it.

Good Luck!

blulegend

The latest official estimate is $14,209.

They need to pull the A-pillar, the shock tower, and some other things on the frame machine.

The dealer told me they won't take a car that has been frame-damaged as a trade-in.

gohawks63

Damn that sucks!

neuronbob

Been lurking on this discussion the last few days. Thanks for all the info (especially from goaub), it's quite interesting to learn about the ins and outs of the actual use of an auto insurance policy. It's relevant to me because I was in a single car, parking lot accident in my brand new TL on 2/3.

The car is at an "insurance-affiliated" body shop (Sterling, a chain in the Midwest with a decent reputation locally) which offers, along with my insurance company a lifetime guarantee on any work done. From day one I've requested OEM parts and the body shop is buying them from one of our two local Acura dealers.

I'm sorry to hear about your car, blu....and the estimate! My initial estimate was similarly high, mostly because of labor..$13.5k, for ONE corner of the car! Thank God my frame's not bent.

VTEC Animal

Ouch, they're going to replace that shock tower?!?!?! I'm suprised that you're under $14209, that whole front end will have to be disassembled including the dash, steering column, everything up there since so much is attached to that part of the frame. You're still about 15k away from totalling, but I'd tell the insurance company that a dealer won't take a frame damaged car on trade-in and therefore you want compensation... ...they're going to say no, but then you'll know you gotta get a lawyer because you're going to see diminished valued. My question is would this show on a vincheck?

blulegend

They aren't going to replace the shock tower, but the estimate reads to "pull" it. I need to speak with a claims investigator about my options. A lawyer said I really can't do anything about it now until its been repaired and I would be fighting it on my own in small claims court. He said get a dealer statement and an appraiser statement to show the judge and not to sign anything that makes me lose my right for diminished value.

gohawks63

It can't hurt to plead your case to your insurance company, although I doubt they'll total it. Unfortunately, you're in that area where you have a new car that has retained it's value, the damage is significant enough to be noticeable, but not enough to total it.

You know, if they do the job right, you can drive it for a year or two. By that time the welds will begin to become less noticeable and the undercoating should begin to fade so it matches the rest of the car. You never know, a less than watchful dealer may not notice that it was fixed.

blulegend

Sad but true. They don't really want to hear from me anymore. How would I "plead" my case? Just call and say what I want? Also, the shop is waiting for my green light to start ordering parts.

Good point. Thing is, I bought the car (and PAID IN FULL). I don't want to wait a couple of years and have to pay the extra money again for a new car.