K&N Filter
K&N Filter
No, you are a dork.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 553
Likes: 0
From: VA
Re: K&N Filter
Originally posted by Tiger800
Does anyone have a K&N drop in filter, and how has it effected your performance? Thanks.
Does anyone have a K&N drop in filter, and how has it effected your performance? Thanks.
Banned
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,687
Likes: 3
From: Mundelein, IL
I have it too. At first it seemed to jump a little more when you hit the gas, but I don't have any objective numbers.
It may be the "placebo" effect. At the very least it'll pay for itself in that you can reuse it since I think the OEM filters cost about $40 or $50.
Just the fact that the car breathes better was worth it to me.
It may be the "placebo" effect. At the very least it'll pay for itself in that you can reuse it since I think the OEM filters cost about $40 or $50.
Just the fact that the car breathes better was worth it to me.
The "old" guy
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Indianapolis (ok..Carmel)
I think it helped mine more considering my car has the comptech header. Better breathing in.....better exhaust out. Given that an engine is essentially a big "air" pump....the more air you get in and out of it the more power and efficiency. The better air filter helps some, but if you cant scavenge the cylinders more effectively (i.e. headers), you wont realize all the gains possible. The opposite is also true, if you scavenge the cylinders better (headers), but dont increase the availability of air into the cylinders (i.e. intake or low restriction filter), you negate some of the possible gains of the headers.
...and then there was One
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,012
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver, WASHINGTON
I dropped one in, too. Even if it didn't do much, it's peace of mind. More air to the engine, so it should be more efficient. Plus, like it was before, it will pay for itself in the end.
Now I am thinking of removing the resonator.....
Now I am thinking of removing the resonator.....
Trending Topics
Retired MOD
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,995
Likes: 1
From: Fredericksburg, VA
Originally posted by TypeSDragon
Want more air, you gotta get the CAI!!!
Want more air, you gotta get the CAI!!!
Instead of getting the K&N get the Comptech High Flow filter and remove the resornator. You will notice a big difference even better than the CAI. Trust me.
Not a Blowhole
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 33
From: Virginia
Goebbels said " a lie told often enough becomes the truth".
The K&N has been talked up enough over the years, and I used to use them, until several controlled tests I ran showed they do not filter to my requirements, which is to use extended oil drains of 7500 nmiles with RedLine oil.
They produce a few HP at best. But there is evidence that they dot keep out dirt that well - if you use synoil and go to extended drains, that is a real problem. Plus, for me, having dirt damage my cylinder walls, rings, etc is not worth a few HP. Here is what Jim Conforti, noted BMW truner, says:
The following information was taken from a posting by Jim Conforti (AKA the Land Shark). Jim is a well known tuner in BMW circles. His web site is the Bonneville Motor Werks. The testing was done on a BMW air filter but the concepts should apply to all manufacturers.
Comparing Stock to Performance Air Filters
First, a "prologue". This was a scientific test, not one done by filter manufacturer X to show that their filters are better than manufacturer Y. The test results are pretty irrefutable as the test lab tests and designs filters where "screw ups" are absolutely NOT allowable (I can't say any more for security. Think "Glow in the Dark").
OK, with that in mind, onward.
A scientific test was done on TEST filters where air was loaded with ACCTD (some standardized "test dust" called AC Coarse Test Dust) and sucked through the TEST filter then through an analysis membrane.
From the Quantity of dust injected and the amount that gets thru the TEST filter and is then captured on the analysis membrane we can calculate the efficiency of the TEST filter in Question.
First, the filters:
BMW Stock Filter, Eff. Area of Media: 8.4 sq ft.
K&N Replacement, Eff. Area of Media: 1.6 sq ft.
The filters are the SAME size. They both fit in the STOCK BMW M3 airbox. The difference is that the STOCK filter has 65 pleats 1.5" deep and the K&N only 29 pleats each 0.75" deep.
Now, remember this ratio: " 5.25:1". It's the ratio of the AREA of STOCK to K&N. It's very important and will come into play later.
The STOCK filter efficiency started at 93.4% at 0 loading and increased to 99.2% efficiency as the loading increased to a max tested of 38.8 gm/sq ft of dust.
The K&N filter efficiency started at 85.2% at 0 loading and increased to 98.1% at the max tested loading of 41.38 gm/sq ft.
Now, I hear you. "Jim, that's only a FEW PERCENT". But is it?
Let's look. If we had 100 grams of dust on a new BMW filter we would let thru a total of 6.6 grams of dust in. If we used the new K&N filter we get 14.8 grams of dust. Thats 224% (TWO HUNDRED TWENTY FOUR PERCENT!!) more dust ingested initially, stock vs. "free flow" and this ratio is pretty much held. Somewhere between 200-300% more dirt gets "ingested" anywhere across loading equivalence.
The more INTERESTING thing is when you look at what happens to the DP or Differential Pressure at a constant airflow as you dirty both filters equally with time.
The test used a rate of 75gr of dust per 20 min. Here's where the AREA difference comes MAJORLY into play. See, even though the BMW filter flows a bit less at the SAME loading, it also LOADS UP 5.25 times SLOWER due to it's LARGER effective area. So what happens is that the K&N initially flows better, but as the dirt continues coming in, the K&N eventually flows WORSE while still letting MORE dirt in.
Now, does any of this additional dirt cause problems? I dunno. I suppose we could have a few people do some independent oil analyses on different motors using both K&Ns and Stock filters. Get enough of them, and you'd have a good statistical basis. For me though, it's simple: More DIRT = BAD.
The additional short-term airflow might make sense on a track car. IMHO, it doesn't for the street.
-- Jim Conforti
Here are some URL's worth checking out about air/oil filters:
http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/dyno/conclusions.html
http://www.mgnoc.com/_disc4/000010e8.htm
http://www.pro-flow.com/mustmath.htm (lots of formulas)
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...n-oilpart5.htm
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...on-oilpart1.ht
The K&N has been talked up enough over the years, and I used to use them, until several controlled tests I ran showed they do not filter to my requirements, which is to use extended oil drains of 7500 nmiles with RedLine oil.
They produce a few HP at best. But there is evidence that they dot keep out dirt that well - if you use synoil and go to extended drains, that is a real problem. Plus, for me, having dirt damage my cylinder walls, rings, etc is not worth a few HP. Here is what Jim Conforti, noted BMW truner, says:
The following information was taken from a posting by Jim Conforti (AKA the Land Shark). Jim is a well known tuner in BMW circles. His web site is the Bonneville Motor Werks. The testing was done on a BMW air filter but the concepts should apply to all manufacturers.
Comparing Stock to Performance Air Filters
First, a "prologue". This was a scientific test, not one done by filter manufacturer X to show that their filters are better than manufacturer Y. The test results are pretty irrefutable as the test lab tests and designs filters where "screw ups" are absolutely NOT allowable (I can't say any more for security. Think "Glow in the Dark").
OK, with that in mind, onward.
A scientific test was done on TEST filters where air was loaded with ACCTD (some standardized "test dust" called AC Coarse Test Dust) and sucked through the TEST filter then through an analysis membrane.
From the Quantity of dust injected and the amount that gets thru the TEST filter and is then captured on the analysis membrane we can calculate the efficiency of the TEST filter in Question.
First, the filters:
BMW Stock Filter, Eff. Area of Media: 8.4 sq ft.
K&N Replacement, Eff. Area of Media: 1.6 sq ft.
The filters are the SAME size. They both fit in the STOCK BMW M3 airbox. The difference is that the STOCK filter has 65 pleats 1.5" deep and the K&N only 29 pleats each 0.75" deep.
Now, remember this ratio: " 5.25:1". It's the ratio of the AREA of STOCK to K&N. It's very important and will come into play later.
The STOCK filter efficiency started at 93.4% at 0 loading and increased to 99.2% efficiency as the loading increased to a max tested of 38.8 gm/sq ft of dust.
The K&N filter efficiency started at 85.2% at 0 loading and increased to 98.1% at the max tested loading of 41.38 gm/sq ft.
Now, I hear you. "Jim, that's only a FEW PERCENT". But is it?
Let's look. If we had 100 grams of dust on a new BMW filter we would let thru a total of 6.6 grams of dust in. If we used the new K&N filter we get 14.8 grams of dust. Thats 224% (TWO HUNDRED TWENTY FOUR PERCENT!!) more dust ingested initially, stock vs. "free flow" and this ratio is pretty much held. Somewhere between 200-300% more dirt gets "ingested" anywhere across loading equivalence.
The more INTERESTING thing is when you look at what happens to the DP or Differential Pressure at a constant airflow as you dirty both filters equally with time.
The test used a rate of 75gr of dust per 20 min. Here's where the AREA difference comes MAJORLY into play. See, even though the BMW filter flows a bit less at the SAME loading, it also LOADS UP 5.25 times SLOWER due to it's LARGER effective area. So what happens is that the K&N initially flows better, but as the dirt continues coming in, the K&N eventually flows WORSE while still letting MORE dirt in.
Now, does any of this additional dirt cause problems? I dunno. I suppose we could have a few people do some independent oil analyses on different motors using both K&Ns and Stock filters. Get enough of them, and you'd have a good statistical basis. For me though, it's simple: More DIRT = BAD.
The additional short-term airflow might make sense on a track car. IMHO, it doesn't for the street.
-- Jim Conforti
Here are some URL's worth checking out about air/oil filters:
http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/dyno/conclusions.html
http://www.mgnoc.com/_disc4/000010e8.htm
http://www.pro-flow.com/mustmath.htm (lots of formulas)
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...n-oilpart5.htm
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...on-oilpart1.ht
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
I am not one to argue with science. But I am also not a novice to K&N air filters. Seven years ago I bought a 1996 turbo charged, 5 speed Eagle Talon. Before the first year was up, I dropped a K&N filter in it. I cleaned and oiled the filter about once a year or so. I changed the engine oil every 3000-3500 miles (it had a turbo charger after all). I did not use synthetic motor oil.
Every 4000 miles I dropped a bottle of STP Complete Fuel System treatment in the gas tank.
I followed factory recommended maintenance schedules. I never had to add any oil between changes. When I traded it three months ago at 86,000 miles (I put all the miles on it - I wouldn't let anyone else drive it) for my TL Type S, it could still take a stock 5.0 Mustang between stop lights. I loved that car and regret trading it.
I have no science that would tell me whether or not my injectors, cylinder walls, piston rings, or crank shaft were about shot due to the fact that I used a K&N air filter. I do know that my little 2 liter engine (210 HP) still felt strong.
If you decide to drop in a K&N, you should get at least 86,000 miles without any apparent damage. Since I'm not as connected to my Type S the way I was to my Talon, I'll probably trade it well before 86,000 miles.
Every 4000 miles I dropped a bottle of STP Complete Fuel System treatment in the gas tank.
I followed factory recommended maintenance schedules. I never had to add any oil between changes. When I traded it three months ago at 86,000 miles (I put all the miles on it - I wouldn't let anyone else drive it) for my TL Type S, it could still take a stock 5.0 Mustang between stop lights. I loved that car and regret trading it.
I have no science that would tell me whether or not my injectors, cylinder walls, piston rings, or crank shaft were about shot due to the fact that I used a K&N air filter. I do know that my little 2 liter engine (210 HP) still felt strong.
If you decide to drop in a K&N, you should get at least 86,000 miles without any apparent damage. Since I'm not as connected to my Type S the way I was to my Talon, I'll probably trade it well before 86,000 miles.
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
FYI.... This past week a buddy of mine with a '84 Porsche 928S Euro had problems with his car on the Hwy. It died like it had run out of gas. After trouble shooting it was discovered that the MAF sensor was at fault. Once removed we found that oil had gotten into circuitry and ruined it...$500.00. The oil? K&N filter oil..
This car is a 9.5 on a 10 scale and had the K&N for approx 11000 miles... For the minimal HP gains a K&N could possibly provide it is not worth risking ANY possible damage. I am sure if a TLS was to have this happen and the dealership removed your MAFS and found oil in it, you would not be covered by Acura. I am also sure it would cost $500.00 or more!!!
IMO...not worth ANY risk for that HP
This car is a 9.5 on a 10 scale and had the K&N for approx 11000 miles... For the minimal HP gains a K&N could possibly provide it is not worth risking ANY possible damage. I am sure if a TLS was to have this happen and the dealership removed your MAFS and found oil in it, you would not be covered by Acura. I am also sure it would cost $500.00 or more!!!
IMO...not worth ANY risk for that HP
Not a Blowhole
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 33
From: Virginia
Very good question! I asked the same thing.
Answer:
1) My anecdote - I have had Comptech foam filter on my NSX for three years and the throttle body is clean
2) Comptech has had a lot of experience with Hondas and Acuras, and could pick any filter it wanted. It did not pick the K&N, and used the foam Unifilter.
Another point about the K&n - Their diagrams show all these little fingers of cotton sticking out to collect the dirt.
1) What happens when the air hits these - won't they tend to bend back away from the airflow, and thus the gaps get bigger?
2) Won't the weight of the gas increase that effect
3) aNY DIRT that does not get caught inititally does not get caight ever, unlike the dept of filtration in open cell foam.
Again no big deal for race car, perhaps big deal ($500 is a big deal to me) on a street car.
Answer:
1) My anecdote - I have had Comptech foam filter on my NSX for three years and the throttle body is clean
2) Comptech has had a lot of experience with Hondas and Acuras, and could pick any filter it wanted. It did not pick the K&N, and used the foam Unifilter.
Another point about the K&n - Their diagrams show all these little fingers of cotton sticking out to collect the dirt.
1) What happens when the air hits these - won't they tend to bend back away from the airflow, and thus the gaps get bigger?
2) Won't the weight of the gas increase that effect
3) aNY DIRT that does not get caught inititally does not get caight ever, unlike the dept of filtration in open cell foam.
Again no big deal for race car, perhaps big deal ($500 is a big deal to me) on a street car.
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
From: Kingston, Ontario, Canada
Just a comment on the Road Rage post. While I don't dispute the scientific evidence offered, I am wondering about the absolute values rather than the relative comparison. I was watching an edition of "Horsepower TV" on the weekend and they were doing a K&N bolt-on upgrade on a Corvette. They had nothing but good things to say about the K&N filters. It is possible that they are only concerned with HP and not with engine longevity but it does make things somewhat confusing to read your post and then listen to HP TV, a quite credible program.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 0
From: NYC
Originally posted by OldGuy
Just a comment on the Road Rage post. While I don't dispute the scientific evidence offered, I am wondering about the absolute values rather than the relative comparison. I was watching an edition of "Horsepower TV" on the weekend and they were doing a K&N bolt-on upgrade on a Corvette. They had nothing but good things to say about the K&N filters. It is possible that they are only concerned with HP and not with engine longevity but it does make things somewhat confusing to read your post and then listen to HP TV, a quite credible program.
Just a comment on the Road Rage post. While I don't dispute the scientific evidence offered, I am wondering about the absolute values rather than the relative comparison. I was watching an edition of "Horsepower TV" on the weekend and they were doing a K&N bolt-on upgrade on a Corvette. They had nothing but good things to say about the K&N filters. It is possible that they are only concerned with HP and not with engine longevity but it does make things somewhat confusing to read your post and then listen to HP TV, a quite credible program.
Think about it, would you pay HP TV to air your commercial, if the show mentions things like this?
Retired MOD
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,995
Likes: 1
From: Fredericksburg, VA
I need no test to tell that the K&N filters let a lot of dirt thru. I just had it on my car for like 2 months and I could tell dirt was going into the engine. Plus just get a K&N cone filter on a light and you are able to see thru it. Since then I said to my self no more K&N filters. Very happy with the comptech high flow filter
Originally posted by Road Rage
Yes, we can all breathe easier....
Yes, we can all breathe easier....
Retired MOD
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,995
Likes: 1
From: Fredericksburg, VA
That sounds more like engine oil thru the PCV valve that conects to the intake, the shop probably just try to blame the oil in the K&N filter. I think you got trick.
Originally posted by RHINO928
FYI.... This past week a buddy of mine with a '84 Porsche 928S Euro had problems with his car on the Hwy. It died like it had run out of gas. After trouble shooting it was discovered that the MAF sensor was at fault. Once removed we found that oil had gotten into circuitry and ruined it...$500.00. The oil? K&N filter oil..
This car is a 9.5 on a 10 scale and had the K&N for approx 11000 miles... For the minimal HP gains a K&N could possibly provide it is not worth risking ANY possible damage. I am sure if a TLS was to have this happen and the dealership removed your MAFS and found oil in it, you would not be covered by Acura. I am also sure it would cost $500.00 or more!!!
IMO...not worth ANY risk for that HP
FYI.... This past week a buddy of mine with a '84 Porsche 928S Euro had problems with his car on the Hwy. It died like it had run out of gas. After trouble shooting it was discovered that the MAF sensor was at fault. Once removed we found that oil had gotten into circuitry and ruined it...$500.00. The oil? K&N filter oil..
This car is a 9.5 on a 10 scale and had the K&N for approx 11000 miles... For the minimal HP gains a K&N could possibly provide it is not worth risking ANY possible damage. I am sure if a TLS was to have this happen and the dealership removed your MAFS and found oil in it, you would not be covered by Acura. I am also sure it would cost $500.00 or more!!!
IMO...not worth ANY risk for that HP
Not a Blowhole
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 33
From: Virginia
Old Guy:
I have been an auto journalist and audio analyst for years, and I can tell you there are all sorts of reasons TV and print journalists can be "swayed". I write for an auto journal that takes no advertising - I have no connections with oil filter, air filter, or water filter companies.
I have been an auto journalist and audio analyst for years, and I can tell you there are all sorts of reasons TV and print journalists can be "swayed". I write for an auto journal that takes no advertising - I have no connections with oil filter, air filter, or water filter companies.
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Originally posted by Bitium
That sounds more like engine oil thru the PCV valve that conects to the intake, the shop probably just try to blame the oil in the K&N filter. I think you got trick.
That sounds more like engine oil thru the PCV valve that conects to the intake, the shop probably just try to blame the oil in the K&N filter. I think you got trick.
What shop??
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,388
Likes: 1
From: Ninth Gate & So Cal
Road Rage:
A comment or three...
I used foam element filters on my sidedraft Webber carbs, and found that they let dirt in. The dirt was easy to find and see -- there was a nice dark collection of black muck where the fuel spit back. Moral of the story -- all foam elements are not created equal...
I have bad allergies and asthma and have a bunch of HEPA filtration units in the place. I put them up to the light to see when they need changing. If I can't see light through them, it is time to change them. The HEPAs filter viruses, mold, bacteria, and very small sub-micron sized particles, yet when the filter is in good shape the light from a 75-watt bulb can be seen through it (A HEPA filter must retain all particles as small as 0.3 µm). So, perhaps the light bulb test may not be the best one for determining a filter's ability to "protect".
As far as oil ending upstream -- this is obviously not a good thing.
Could the K&N be equivalent to a weapon -- if used correctly, it is safe and useful; in the wrong hands, the source of much grief.
Just some additional thoughts...
A comment or three...
I used foam element filters on my sidedraft Webber carbs, and found that they let dirt in. The dirt was easy to find and see -- there was a nice dark collection of black muck where the fuel spit back. Moral of the story -- all foam elements are not created equal...
I have bad allergies and asthma and have a bunch of HEPA filtration units in the place. I put them up to the light to see when they need changing. If I can't see light through them, it is time to change them. The HEPAs filter viruses, mold, bacteria, and very small sub-micron sized particles, yet when the filter is in good shape the light from a 75-watt bulb can be seen through it (A HEPA filter must retain all particles as small as 0.3 µm). So, perhaps the light bulb test may not be the best one for determining a filter's ability to "protect".
As far as oil ending upstream -- this is obviously not a good thing.
Could the K&N be equivalent to a weapon -- if used correctly, it is safe and useful; in the wrong hands, the source of much grief.
Just some additional thoughts...
Racer
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
RHINO928, your so silly. Our cars don't have a MAFS. Its a MAP car, like 90-92 GM F-bodies, which went from Bosche MAFS to MAP then back to MAFS. Our cars computes the air pressure from inside the manifold, so this would not be a problem on the TL anyhow. Thanks for scaring people though.
However, I did have a MAFS problem on my infiniti and I had a K&N. The dealer still replaced it but thought it may have been the filter as it was an infiniti/nissan documented thing to look for. (I think its more of an excuse) Some cars are more senesitive to oil on the MAFS then others. I'm not sure if it was really related as that new car has had problems all over the place and nothing to do with an air filter
Anyhow, this explains why comptech (owned by acura) also has oiled filters. No MAFS = 0% oil relates issues on a MAFS
Our cars don't have a MAFS. Its a MAP car, like 90-92 GM F-bodies, which went from Bosche MAFS to MAP then back to MAFS. Our cars computes the air pressure from inside the manifold, so this would not be a problem on the TL anyhow. Thanks for scaring people though.However, I did have a MAFS problem on my infiniti and I had a K&N. The dealer still replaced it but thought it may have been the filter as it was an infiniti/nissan documented thing to look for. (I think its more of an excuse) Some cars are more senesitive to oil on the MAFS then others. I'm not sure if it was really related as that new car has had problems all over the place and nothing to do with an air filter
Anyhow, this explains why comptech (owned by acura) also has oiled filters. No MAFS = 0% oil relates issues on a MAFS
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Originally posted by typeSmaximum
RHINO928, your so silly. Our cars don't have a MAFS. Its a MAP car, like 90-92 GM F-bodies, which went from Bosche MAFS to MAP then back to MAFS. Our cars computes the air pressure from inside the manifold, so this would not be a problem on the TL anyhow. Thanks for scaring people though.
However, I did have a MAFS problem on my infiniti and I had a K&N. The dealer still replaced it but thought it may have been the filter as it was an infiniti/nissan documented thing to look for. (I think its more of an excuse) Some cars are more senesitive to oil on the MAFS then others. I'm not sure if it was really related as that new car has had problems all over the place and nothing to do with an air filter
Anyhow, this explains why comptech (owned by acura) also has oiled filters. No MAFS = 0% oil relates issues on a MAFS
RHINO928, your so silly.
Our cars don't have a MAFS. Its a MAP car, like 90-92 GM F-bodies, which went from Bosche MAFS to MAP then back to MAFS. Our cars computes the air pressure from inside the manifold, so this would not be a problem on the TL anyhow. Thanks for scaring people though.However, I did have a MAFS problem on my infiniti and I had a K&N. The dealer still replaced it but thought it may have been the filter as it was an infiniti/nissan documented thing to look for. (I think its more of an excuse) Some cars are more senesitive to oil on the MAFS then others. I'm not sure if it was really related as that new car has had problems all over the place and nothing to do with an air filter
Anyhow, this explains why comptech (owned by acura) also has oiled filters. No MAFS = 0% oil relates issues on a MAFS
So are you saying there is NO POSSIBLE WAY for the oil related to the filter to have ANY effect on a TLS OR ANY OTHER cars fuel system?
If so, why don't you have a K&N on that impressive list of mod's??
All I am saying is that a K&N does not give a measurable performance increase that out weighs ANY risk of damage for a daily driver car....
Racer
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
RHINO928, can you read? The TLS is not like every other FI car or your Porsche Mr. The answer is NO to the LTS because if doesn't have a MAFS like several hondas!
The Infiniti and most Nissans do. Goodness! I admited to the Inifiniti to show your not a complete idiot and it could be possible, just not on the ACURA TL.
I contridicted two posts of yours, not all, because you attacted me in one, and you always act like you know what you are talking about, when you don't Mr Porsche.
So in laymen’s terms, my other posts said; we don’t have that sensor to even worry about on our cars so its not a problem, though some others cars do have this sensor and this is not the first time I’ve seen this oil issue.
I don't have any performance mods on my TLs beacuse its still new and I have a few other projects I'm trying to finish first. Your really should read better before you respond and start rolling eyes. I don’t have anything against you personally, may have just struck a nerve.
The Infiniti and most Nissans do. Goodness! I admited to the Inifiniti to show your not a complete idiot and it could be possible, just not on the ACURA TL.
I contridicted two posts of yours, not all, because you attacted me in one, and you always act like you know what you are talking about, when you don't Mr Porsche.
So in laymen’s terms, my other posts said; we don’t have that sensor to even worry about on our cars so its not a problem, though some others cars do have this sensor and this is not the first time I’ve seen this oil issue.
I don't have any performance mods on my TLs beacuse its still new and I have a few other projects I'm trying to finish first. Your really should read better before you respond and start rolling eyes. I don’t have anything against you personally, may have just struck a nerve.
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Originally posted by typeSmaximum
RHINO928, can you read? The TLS is not like every other FI car or your Porsche Mr. The answer is NO to the LTS because if doesn't have a MAFS like several hondas!
The Infiniti and most Nissans do. Goodness! I admited to the Inifiniti to show your not a complete idiot and it could be possible, just not on the ACURA TL.
I contridicted two posts of yours, not all, because you attacted me in one, and you always act like you know what you are talking about, when you don't Mr Porsche.
So in laymen’s terms, my other posts said; we don’t have that sensor to even worry about on our cars so its not a problem, though some others cars do have this sensor and this is not the first time I’ve seen this oil issue.
I don't have any performance mods on my TLs beacuse its still new and I have a few other projects I'm trying to finish first. Your really should read better before you respond and start rolling eyes. I don’t have anything against you personally, may have just struck a nerve.
RHINO928, can you read? The TLS is not like every other FI car or your Porsche Mr. The answer is NO to the LTS because if doesn't have a MAFS like several hondas!
The Infiniti and most Nissans do. Goodness! I admited to the Inifiniti to show your not a complete idiot and it could be possible, just not on the ACURA TL.
I contridicted two posts of yours, not all, because you attacted me in one, and you always act like you know what you are talking about, when you don't Mr Porsche.
So in laymen’s terms, my other posts said; we don’t have that sensor to even worry about on our cars so its not a problem, though some others cars do have this sensor and this is not the first time I’ve seen this oil issue.
I don't have any performance mods on my TLs beacuse its still new and I have a few other projects I'm trying to finish first. Your really should read better before you respond and start rolling eyes. I don’t have anything against you personally, may have just struck a nerve.
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,388
Likes: 1
From: Ninth Gate & So Cal
Originally posted by daryl.com
May I get some clarification PLEASE? I have a 2002 TLS. Is the K & N good for my car or bad? Is the Comptech better? Why or why not? Short answers please....Thanks,
D
May I get some clarification PLEASE? I have a 2002 TLS. Is the K & N good for my car or bad? Is the Comptech better? Why or why not? Short answers please....Thanks,
D
IMO -- if you maintain it properly, it should give you a small power boost.
When SCC tested the K&N replacement against the stock Maxima air filter, the testers got something close to 8HP of increased power to the wheels.
I also know a member with the Comptech filter and the car sounds louder than stock…
The "better" part (of your question) is why there are a ton of varying responses from smart people. Until someone does a test of the K&N vs. the Comptech on the TLS/CLS on a dyno *and* then retests at various intervals, it is all "opinions".
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Daryl:
It appears that EricL has about as much wisdom as we're going to get here. As a famous preacher once said when asked which translation of the Bible Christians should read, "The Bible you need is the Bible you read."
But I digress. In furtherance of the harmony of this thread, I volunteer to be the sacrificial lamb. I hereby make the following solemn vow (placing right hand on a durable, if not over-priced Mobil 1 Oil Filter):
I hereby vow to operate my Acura TL Type S with a K&N filter. I further vow to let all know if any problem with said vehicle, great or small, can be traced to the K&N. Moreover, in the event that any such problem occurs and can be verified as having been caused by the air filter, I vow to suck the oil from Road Rages Comptech Foamie (assuming, of course, that he treats said filter with only the highest quality, extra virgin oil).
It appears that EricL has about as much wisdom as we're going to get here. As a famous preacher once said when asked which translation of the Bible Christians should read, "The Bible you need is the Bible you read."
But I digress. In furtherance of the harmony of this thread, I volunteer to be the sacrificial lamb. I hereby make the following solemn vow (placing right hand on a durable, if not over-priced Mobil 1 Oil Filter):
I hereby vow to operate my Acura TL Type S with a K&N filter. I further vow to let all know if any problem with said vehicle, great or small, can be traced to the K&N. Moreover, in the event that any such problem occurs and can be verified as having been caused by the air filter, I vow to suck the oil from Road Rages Comptech Foamie (assuming, of course, that he treats said filter with only the highest quality, extra virgin oil).
No, you are a dork.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 553
Likes: 0
From: VA
Originally posted by lawman
Daryl:
It appears that EricL has about as much wisdom as we're going to get here. As a famous preacher once said when asked which translation of the Bible Christians should read, "The Bible you need is the Bible you read."
But I digress. In furtherance of the harmony of this thread, I volunteer to be the sacrificial lamb. I hereby make the following solemn vow (placing right hand on a durable, if not over-priced Mobil 1 Oil Filter):
I hereby vow to operate my Acura TL Type S with a K&N filter. I further vow to let all know if any problem with said vehicle, great or small, can be traced to the K&N. Moreover, in the event that any such problem occurs and can be verified as having been caused by the air filter, I vow to suck the oil from Road Rages Comptech Foamie (assuming, of course, that he treats said filter with only the highest quality, extra virgin oil).
Daryl:
It appears that EricL has about as much wisdom as we're going to get here. As a famous preacher once said when asked which translation of the Bible Christians should read, "The Bible you need is the Bible you read."
But I digress. In furtherance of the harmony of this thread, I volunteer to be the sacrificial lamb. I hereby make the following solemn vow (placing right hand on a durable, if not over-priced Mobil 1 Oil Filter):
I hereby vow to operate my Acura TL Type S with a K&N filter. I further vow to let all know if any problem with said vehicle, great or small, can be traced to the K&N. Moreover, in the event that any such problem occurs and can be verified as having been caused by the air filter, I vow to suck the oil from Road Rages Comptech Foamie (assuming, of course, that he treats said filter with only the highest quality, extra virgin oil).
Racer
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Attacked... sorry, lol, was typing very fast trying to explain the same thing over again and again. So now we all know you don't have to worry about the oil on THIS car. I don’t think you will have any problems either way. However, just because Acura owns Comptech, and wouldn’t allow parts causing more warranty work cutting into profits (Not saying the K&N would, just doesn't give the dealer an excuse), I would go with their filter, and some times K&Ns are not a perfect fit and you have to use these little gasket strips. I'm sure the comptech one fit like OEM.
We all share a common interest, lets just get along
We all share a common interest, lets just get along
Not a Blowhole
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 33
From: Virginia
I do not know how I got entwined in the whole "oil" residue controversy - I was merely pointing out that the K&N does not seem to filter very well, based on tests I have run, and others.
These threads always seem to come full circle. One may get a few HP out of the K&N over the paper, but the evidence suggests it comes at a cost. 8 real-world HP from an airfilter on a Maxima? - hard to believe, could just be normal dyno run to run variance.
I do not pay much mind to these anecdotal posts that say " I had a K&N and my car is fine". How does one make an informed decision on that? I know a lot of SAE engineers and few of them buy into this product for their cars. I had an uncle who smoked 5 cigars a day, and lived to be 92. Does that anecdote make me want to add same to my health regimen? Would you?
What seems incontrovertible is that if a filter's design or sealing characteristics allow significant amounts of dirt over 10 microns to enter the engine, it is not a good thing. Will the car go 80k miles? Probably? 100? Perhaps. But if wear is causing a loss of compression and subsequent power, it will degrade very slowly, and not cause catastrophic failure.
"The world will end not with a bang, but with a whimper".
These threads always seem to come full circle. One may get a few HP out of the K&N over the paper, but the evidence suggests it comes at a cost. 8 real-world HP from an airfilter on a Maxima? - hard to believe, could just be normal dyno run to run variance.
I do not pay much mind to these anecdotal posts that say " I had a K&N and my car is fine". How does one make an informed decision on that? I know a lot of SAE engineers and few of them buy into this product for their cars. I had an uncle who smoked 5 cigars a day, and lived to be 92. Does that anecdote make me want to add same to my health regimen? Would you?
What seems incontrovertible is that if a filter's design or sealing characteristics allow significant amounts of dirt over 10 microns to enter the engine, it is not a good thing. Will the car go 80k miles? Probably? 100? Perhaps. But if wear is causing a loss of compression and subsequent power, it will degrade very slowly, and not cause catastrophic failure.
"The world will end not with a bang, but with a whimper".
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
RR:
Do you know of any published statistical analysis (e.g. number of catastrophic failures or just plain whimpering engines traceable to K&N filters relative to the number of K&N filters in use) to support your 'incontrovertible' statement. My undergraduate degree was in Arts and graduate degree was in Law. As you can see, I have no scientific background. However, I noticed you do have a scientific background. I figured if anybody could come up with such anyalysis, you could.
Do you know of any published statistical analysis (e.g. number of catastrophic failures or just plain whimpering engines traceable to K&N filters relative to the number of K&N filters in use) to support your 'incontrovertible' statement. My undergraduate degree was in Arts and graduate degree was in Law. As you can see, I have no scientific background. However, I noticed you do have a scientific background. I figured if anybody could come up with such anyalysis, you could.
Not a Blowhole
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 33
From: Virginia
My incontrovertible refers to the wear effects of dirt entering through the induction system, of which there are many SAE monographs.
I doubt there are any specific tests re: K&N, as they do not claim being able to filter as effectively as others, and thus are not fraudulent.
This thread is tiresomre, but let me post a couple more things to consider:
1) Ford has developed a 150k mile air filter - it uses 97% foam
2) Ford's filter also makes the point that it stops salt and moisture, as all foam filters do, and that these contaminantsform corrosive acids in the oil which hasten wear.
I could care less if people use K&N's or not - the original question was about pro's and con's, and I think it has been beaten to death. But I am not aware of any other modern filter being introduced that uses surgical gauze as its medium. There has been progress in the 25 years since these filters first appeared.
I doubt there are any specific tests re: K&N, as they do not claim being able to filter as effectively as others, and thus are not fraudulent.
This thread is tiresomre, but let me post a couple more things to consider:
1) Ford has developed a 150k mile air filter - it uses 97% foam
2) Ford's filter also makes the point that it stops salt and moisture, as all foam filters do, and that these contaminantsform corrosive acids in the oil which hasten wear.
I could care less if people use K&N's or not - the original question was about pro's and con's, and I think it has been beaten to death. But I am not aware of any other modern filter being introduced that uses surgical gauze as its medium. There has been progress in the 25 years since these filters first appeared.
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
I don't know how old foam filter technology is (not that it matters if it is effective). I bought a new Yamaha motorcycle in 1971 and it used a foam filter. I presume the technology had been around prior to 1971. I kept the foam filter cleaned and oiled and it served me well. I hadn't even heard of K&N at that time.
125,000 mile guarantees, much less million mile guarantees, don't impress me. Someone else will be driving my vehicle long before either guarantee is up.
Without a true scientific test with supporting statistical analysis, I guess we're left with anecdotes and junk science speculation. Oh, well.
In any event, I'm not married to the K&N, I'm just not afraid of it. On my next vehicle, I might even spring for a foam filter.
The end.
125,000 mile guarantees, much less million mile guarantees, don't impress me. Someone else will be driving my vehicle long before either guarantee is up.
Without a true scientific test with supporting statistical analysis, I guess we're left with anecdotes and junk science speculation. Oh, well.
In any event, I'm not married to the K&N, I'm just not afraid of it. On my next vehicle, I might even spring for a foam filter.
The end.
Purchased: April 28, 2001
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,009
Likes: 2
From: Berkeley, CA
Originally posted by Road Rage
K&N, as they do not claim being able to filter as effectively as others, and thus are not fraudulent.
K&N, as they do not claim being able to filter as effectively as others, and thus are not fraudulent.
http://www.knfilter.com/facts.htm#FACTS
"K&N’s oil-impregnated, cotton-gauze element is the basis of our filter, as well as K&N’s overall dominance of the reusable air filter market. To further make the point, consider that square inch per square inch, our filter will flow at least 50% more air than the average paper filter without sacrificing filtration efficiency. "
Having heard all the pros and cons of air filters, it made me wonder if the filter I am using (Injen) is just a normal K&N cone filter.