Kasanova King

Hello everyone,

I'd like to commend everyone here for a great and very informative forum. I'm new here and this is my first (and probably very lengthy) post.

I just got a new job in outside sales and have been looking at a bunch of cars for work over the past week. I was previously in the car business and know cars pretty well...so over the years I have come to appreciate the quality, drive and dependability of Acura. I've come to the conclusion that my best value right now would be to buy a 2003 Acura TL.

I've narrowed the search down to 2 particular TL's. The first is from a dealer:

2003 TL 90,000 miles, very very clean, I saw the car tonight. Everything works perfect, no body damage, smooth transmission. I did notice some over spray on the chrome front underneath the hood area but the carfax did not report any accidents. From my experience, a lot of times people just get their hoods painted because of the nicks/scratches you get from everyday driving. I'm thinking most likely, that's all it was because if it was hit, whoever fixed it would have done a near perfect job. It was also a one owner vehicle with a meticulous maintenance history.

The dealer was asking $7999.00 for the car. I did a little haggling but he was pretty firm, I got him down to $7600.00...but he wouldn't go down another penny. He pretty much told me (in a nice way) that a TL in that condition was almost impossible to find and that he wouldn't have a problem selling it for that price.

The second is from a private seller:

2003 TL - Type S with 99,000 miles. I have not yet seen the car yet but I spoke to the owner in detail about the car, I saw pictures of it and pulled a carfax already - no accidents, clean title, etc. The transmission on this car was factory replaced at about 80,000 miles. He also said the car was in very good condition and he has all the maintenance records. He also is the original owner of the vehicle. I plan on seeing the car tomorrow night. He is asking $7900.00 for the car.

Now I have a few questions for you folks:

1. From my understanding the timing belt needs to be replaced on these cars at 105,000 miles? I'm assuming neither car has had it replaced yet. I also thought that these timing belts are NON interference, so basically if the break, they won't damage the engine. From your experience, must they be replaced at 105,000 miles or could I wait until about 120,000 miles?

2. I know that the major differences between the regular TL and the TL - S is the horsepower (30-40 more?), upgraded suspension and better rims. Is there any other major differences?.

3. If I can get either car at the same price and presuming both cars are in good condition am I getting a good deal? And which one should I get - the regular TL with 9,000 less miles and a 3 month warranty or the type S from the private seller with 9,000 miles more and no warranty?

Thanks for all of your help in advance and any advice is greatly appreciated!!

wise2k

Welcome to the forum, and hope you will get one of the two cars. I'd say go with the Type S, because you definitely know that the transmission has already been updated, and the whole host of betterness over the TL-P.

I believe they ARE intereference timing belts, they snap and your engine needs some serious overhauling; better off get an engine from a junk yard.

The interior is also way different, front seats are firmer and have perforated leather, headrests are different, gauges look different, etc.

I'd say get the Type-S, I had a T-LP and ex-girlfriend had an 02 TL-S and although I have limited experience, that car is nice. Also for the fact that you will be dealing with the original owner, transmission has already been updated, and you might actually negotiate a better price with him if you mention $1k+ soon for the timing belt. Who knows, you could get it for $7k or less if you have the cash in hand!

Kasanova King

Wow, I didn't know that about the timing belts. I just read somewhere online that the newer 3.2 engine - I think after 1999 or 2000 model years - were non interference, good thing I checked here.

Yeah, the type S does seem to have a lot of better features and I'm thinking having just 9k miles less on the other car isn't enough to make it a better value...plus, like you said, it having the newer trans already in is a huge plus. I have yet to see the car and I hoping that it is great condition like the one I saw tonight - the leather, paint, interior, etc...the color on the type S is way better too, IMO, silver vs. gold on the regular TL.

Thanks for your advice, it's greatly appreciated!

Type-SuperFast

yeah type-s hands down

ive owned three type-s tl's and drove a regular and i can say that i will NEVER buy a regular one (no offense to anyone that has one) i just wouldnt be able to do it, plus their worth more then the regular in the long run

finalcross

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I agree. Sadly I have a base and I just needed a car in that moment but now I really wanna trade it for a Type S.

The tranny was changed on the Type S recently and that's the most important thing. Also it will be a lot easier to sell when you do wanna sell it.

Souljah

Type-S!

V_Langs_3.2TL

i never had the option for a type-s (2000) but i have a huge smile everyday that I drive my car... you should have the same!

get the type-S not for the engine (it's a plus yes) but for the nicer interior.

get it, come back, take pics, and get to modding!

welcome to the forums

Kasanova King

Thanks for all the replies guys. I was just reading the problem section - I never realized how big the problem was with the transmissions on these cars. I mean, is there a 100% fail rate on these transmissions sooner or later? It seems as if Acura has addressed the problem though and has offered the extended warranty for 10 years and up to 109,000 miles - which is a good thing.

I also read of a horror story about a guy's car that locked up on him while driving on the highway when the tranny failed...I think Acura has also addressed that problem.

How do I find out prior to buying the car if these problems have been addressed on the particular vehicle I want to buy? I think the 800 corporate number is for owners only. Do I need to buy the car first then call, register and ask?

I also read that apparently most of the "second" transmissions installed after 2006 seem to be fine and non problematic....is this true?

Thanks again for your help!

01tl4tl

having a factory rebuilt (actually a few shops do all of them for acura)
that fresh trans is a major bonus worth 4 gs
the other car will need a trans at some point~
the old 04 issued recall `fix` is not related to the actual failure problem most face right about those miles

the car has a definite interferance engine !!!!- 7 years or 105 whichever is first.
many go longer but its a $2500 risk you are taking on damage = replace engine if belt breaks at speed and engine keeps turning,,or repeated effort to start with broken belt...

you will have exhaust valve to piston contact

you can buy aftermarket warranty for the trans and electronics,ask dealer service manager for suggested companies

You will probably need a new nav system disc $175,,new roads and places added each year

carfax only knows what insurance companies report to it
private shops or any shop you pay cash and no report is made
dealers report oil changes as a service which messes up the reality of the report

a good tech with the car on the lift can tell you if its been hit-repaired poorly or right and other things that may need repair soon
Have them look at the brake system closely
fluid flushes been done? brake and ps flush..a lot of things needed at 60 dont get done

also tell tech ck front and rear motor mounts-look for oil traces from hydraulic filled mounts (or use a `honda familiar` shop that will know) and passenger side
common failures
front goes- then side--then rear from extra load

spark plugs (50 dollars in parts) and 2 cans seafoam ~20 bucks will make it run like new
cabin filter 20$ will fix the inside air--do that annually

question- are you on the freeway long distances or lots of short in town stuff for your sales?
the TL is a guzzler in town, lucky to get 17-19mpg,,on freeway it averages out 25, 30 on trips,,,but town is a killer
If a company gas card, make sure it allows 91 octane- dont run the TL on anything less

01tl4tl

you can do a phone call to acura care 1- 800 382 2238x5 tell them doing a `prebuy history ck` of warranty work done and make sure all recalls are done--there is a new one on airbag inflators for some..need cars vin for that

also some 03 get a free timing belt job under Recall -misalignment on pulleys causes early wear-failure
see if part of that--major bonus!!

trans warranty includes most,, but not all,, 03s- its 7 years 9 months or 109kmiles 114.5 kmiles for odometer error court case cars
NOT 10 years!! dont we wish

units replaced after 05 come in a new case design with better oil flow- better life expectancy
Its still a possible failure but way down from originals
not 100 percent will even fail early--before 100,,,many are out there 150 plus and going strong
keeping up the fluid changes really helps

the 04 issued recall was for the breaking of 2nd gear shaft which caused car to stop suddenly from 70--thats been fixed
but there is no fix for the clutch wearout we face

avoid certain harsh driving techniques and never have a concern~

Kasanova King

Good info. Thanks for the reply, I'm not sure if you saw but I also had some questions in post #8 about the transmission and other problems with the TL.

I'll actually be doing a combination of both so I figured to be averaging around 23-24 mpg, which is what I calculated my budget for. I actually get a flat car allowance and little to no fuel reimbursement so I can put whatever gas I want in the car.

Yeah, when I go look at the type S tomorrow, I'll pick through his records closely. Is there any major (besides the transmission) problem that should have been addressed by now - 2003 with 99,000 miles - recalls, etc?

01tl4tl

a car at the dealer with painted hood probably came from auction unless dealer has paperwork from service dept showing its a local owner car
Most put up with rock chips when the price to repair is quoted

paint in one area like front,,means crash--ck foglight alignment thats a big giveaway~

Kasanova King

Wow...you've been a HUGE help and definitely have given me some peace of mind, so thank you! Yes, that would be awesome if somehow the timing belt recall was covered too. I do have the VIN for both vehicles and I will make sure to call tomorrow and tell them exactly what you said. Awesome, thanks again!

01tl4tl

see my last post for acura phone number on recall ck
have a good tech look the car over top and bottem-spend 50 bucks and learn a lot

hopefully the front motor mount was replaced with trans (common)
shocks wear out, rr wheel bearing common, cv axle bearings, brakes pad rotors/calipers if fluid looks like mud
Look for those fluid changes in records

a normal `prebuy inspection`-look in phone book for small ad, place that does honda and acura preferred,, but any tech can do a visual with this list

owner should be willing to allow the car to go there, or drive it themself and you pay for inspection
was it cared for at dealer or private shop

Industry insider info:
dealer salesmen dont know a cars history- dont read its carfax, dont look at records
They look at secret papers with the price the dealer is into the car for including any repairs they made
(not likely,they negotiate repairs when sold, not fix before and hope it sells), storage, insurance etc,,

What they are asking for the car and what is the lowest they will take
sales commission, bonus avail on selling that car,,
its the end of the month soon---- and sales revolve around that,,quotas~

01tl4tl

use internet~ search for Acura 2003 timing belt recall
Should find a list with starting and ending VINs
if yours fall inside those numbers,,,you are lucky-- winner winner chicken dinner!!

Kasanova King

That car was actually locally purchased, registered and serviced at a local Acura dealer according to all the records I saw and carfax. It was then traded and this dealer bought it from the dealer who traded it.

That's why I was in total disbelief when I noticed the over spray. (and when I mean over spray - it was extremely light, 90% of people probably would have never caught it) I was a used car manager for 7 years and probably appraised hundreds if not thousands of trade ins so I am trained on what to look for. Be it that it was night, this car looked unbelievably clean. There was no over spray anywhere else on the vehicle, the lines, etc...everything was smooth. The fog lights, casings, under fender plastic was all perfect and perfectly aligned...so who knows...although from my experience, I know that there are really good body shops out there that will practically repair a car to near perfect condition. If I decide to buy that one, I'll definitely take a closer look during the day.

01tl4tl

well thats info you could have shared earlier--you know how to look at cars!!!

if the dealer car has original trans,,,its going to be on the edge,, or out of warranty-
3 months is nothing~
only reason I would buy a gen2 TL at the dealer is if they will CPO it for 1000$ and give another 100kmiles warranty on trans and car

I understand you can buy warranty from acura too- but as used car insider you have better info that me

01tl4tl

look at other TL's for that overspray~

Kasanova King

Yeah, you're right, some dealers do operate that way, I worked at one that did - not quite as bad as you're saying but close There are other dealers that do actually put a lot of money into used cars before they sell them - most luxury new car dealers, family run places, etc...they actually pride themselves in having clean cars and will back it up with a warranty...I would say it's about 50/50 out there, from working at several different dealers at the management level over the past 10 years. But it is a coin flip.

The place I was at tonight seemed decent, spoke to the owner directly and I actually asked him directly about the overspray and he said he hadn't even noticed it until I pointed it out to him...he seemed pretty pissed off about it (the fact that it was there, not that I asked him about it).el

Thanks again for your help, you seem to be very informative. Although I sold cars for 10+ years, I haven't had to buy one (on the retail end of it) in about that same amount of time. After being on that side of it for so long, I take for granted how important it really is to do everything you're saying. I realize that if I get a bad car now, I can't just bring it back to the lot the next day, put it in service and pick out another one like I did with my demos.

Nice, I'll definitely do that too tomorrow!

Kasanova King

Yeah, that what I figured. The clock would be ticking if the dealer car had the original tranny. From what I remember (I have been out of the business for over a year now) the Acura TL extended warranties are insanely high in both dealer cost and retail cost...probably because if the tranny problem...and from what I know, I don't know of any that would give an additional 100k on top of a car that already had 100k.

Some of those warranties are misleading. For example the certified pre owned warranties that state "100k miles" isn't from the time you buy the car, it's the total amount of miles on the car. There are warranties that do start from when you buy the car but they are typically much less in duration and max out at about 60k...and the car you're buying typically would have to have less than 90k in order to qualify...and those are the ones that are really expensive for TL's....upwards of $4000 a pop....it would be almost cheaper just to put a new tranny in yourself. I may be off a little as the car business is constantly evolving but that's pretty much the way it was when I was in it.

01tl4tl

rebuilding your trans at a shop runs a low of 1500 to 2500-2800 dollars
2500 being common figure

if you have contacts in the industry you would be ok without warranty as long as you know bearings on other simple things like ps pump or alt wear out, and parts for this car are freaking expensive (both of those examples are $250- 350 for part)
cant use cheap parts either- the car knows! just wait till it needs front rotors! probably needs now anyway==stockers suck ~warpmasters~

my experience in the industry- used car dealers polish the car--always have an awesome detailer on staff is key to their success

For other repairs- its cheap and buyers will look at it as sign of overall car health--they change the oil
probably not the air filter as few buyers will remove its cover--who carries a screwdriver to look at cars

they buy a car from private person trade in or at auction
it may sit unsold 3 months then go back to the auction

Why would they invest money in repairs on a car that isnt sold?--easy to throw in some parts/service to close the deal,,but not put out money you may lose
Its business!

a high end dealer will do a detail job--ck recalls (all dealers do) and depending on the client base-- whatever service to bring it current (thinking bimmer and above)
but thats 20-30-40 grand cars--not a 7 grand car they got for 5 or 6 on trade

of course this is all just my opinion and I could be wrong,,its happened

01tl4tl

I suggested use internet search on recall vins for timing belt- so you could know tonight!
acura care open 6am to 5 pm, pacific time -closed on holidays

Kasanova King

Yeah, more or less. For less expensive cars it really is almost impossible for a dealer to put a lot of money in them because they just don't have the margins, like you said. They can't afford to put $2000 in a $5000 - $6000 cost car that they will only be able to sell for $7000 - $8000, they would be out of business.

As for repairs, I do know of a semi retired mechanic that has been working on my family's cars for years. The guy is super honest, half the time we go there for minor problems he'll fix them in a few minutes and not even charge us. For bigger repairs he'll charge way below industry standard, from what I've seen, somewhere around $40 per labor hour - which around here, is less than half of what most guys are taking....so I guess I lucked out there - just HOPE that he doesn't fully retire anytime soon!

Yeah, I actually did that last night - thanks btw - but neither car qualified...so the timing belt is up to me.

As for an update on my search, I didn't have a chance to see the type S yet, should be able to see it tomorrow morning, I'll let you know what happens. Thanks!

01tl4tl

stiffer seat cushions (lightly padded rocks) with better side bolsters will be your immediate impression

Kasanova King

Ok, just got back and I bought the 2003 TL type S. I would say the car is in very good condition. The body has no scratches or dents. The tires look ok, they will need to be replaced in about 10k miles, from my best estimate. I also think the front brake pads will need to be replaced in about that same amount of time.

I have all the service records...it's a folder full....looks like he changed the oil every 3000-4000 miles and had all the major maintenance required by Acura done, the miles on the car right now are right at 100k, so I will need to change the timing belt in 5,000 miles.

The interior is near perfect, no scratches on the leather, all the electronics work, no warning lights on the dash on.

The transmission was redone at the Acura dealer at 90,000 miles and seems to be very smooth.

The owner was an older gentleman who said it was his wife's car and he spoke about her in past tense so I am assuming she may have passed away.

From my experience, it looks like the car was very well maintained and not driven very hard.

Unfortunately, I was unable to get him to lower the price very much, he was asking $7900 - he actually had just lowered it to that from $8900. He had another lady going to look at it tomorrow so he was only willing to go down to $7750.00 I ended up agreeing to the price and bought the car!

Now a couple of things I did notice while driving home. There is a slight pull to the right and the steering wheel is slightly off center. The last time he had it aligned was at 60,000 miles so I'm assuming that's probably what it is.

Also, once I get to higher speeds - above 60mph - there is a gradual increase of a low vibration - I'm guessing that may be correlated to the alignment and a wheel balance. I'm hoping it's not the motor mounts - he did have one replaced when they did the transmission.

Any help or advice would help, let me know of anything other than the standard oil change, filter, air filter, etc, I should be doing now.

01tl4tl

seafoam and new NGK spark plugs to get the `old lady drives it slow`--out of the car

For that matter I would do an ecu reset and let it learn your driving style
pull the clock fuse on passenger end of dash for a minute to do that

make sure you have the radio and nav security codes written down!!
when the battery gets changed or dies--you need those codes

ck the nav disc version- see how many years ago its from
turn key to ON- pop trunk- push button on nav drive unit- dvd pops out--read version and see color-both important to know

register as the new owner with the 800 and at acura.com/ owners

Congrats on your purchase!! Welcome to the ziner family too
Ck the Meets threads for local gatherings of other acurazine members

see the special sections list at bottem of pages here- the info from Wash And Wax threads will have your new baby looking better than new

TL Type S fan

The vibration may come from worn shocks? Were they replaced?

01tl4tl

its got a pull, steering wheel off center and freeway speed vibration
plus elderly couple drivers

Im going with: its been potholed or curb shot and needs wheel balance and an alignement'
Take a look at the rims for signs of ~curb wear~

Kasanova King

Thanks!!!

As for the ecu reset, I probably will do it because as soon I step on the pedal, the car takes off - I'm pretty sure that's a sign of the car being trained for someone that was very light on the gas pedal. I was wondering though, how long will it take the car to adjust to my driving style without the ecu reset?

The car actually does not have navigation, it has the 6 disc changer and cassette head unit - but the last thing I did was get the radio codes from the previous owner, so I'm good there.

Yeah, I def. will register and make sure all the recalls have been done, etc....and yes, I'm really excited to be here and thank you and everyone else that has helped me out in this thread!

From glancing through the maintenance paperwork, I did not see the shocks being replaced. I'm not that familiar with the TL but the suspension seems to be very strong and firm - and absorbs bumps very well....the handling is absolutely incredible too.


SPOT ON. The right front rim has "curb wear" and it actually looks somewhat recent...I think you nailed this one on the head....thanks!

01tl4tl

the ecu learns very slowly of changes,,its job is adapting to the cars changes not yours
so if you want to reset it- do all your cleanings and plugs etc then reset

dont forget the TB air plate cleaning, and lube the throttle return springs, may be part of touchy throttle now

It will take a week or two normal driving to fully learn about you
Do NOT reset if you have to go for smog test within a month-
the computer will say `not enough info stored for testing!` ooops

see- I dont know everything- I thought type S all had nav,,my 01-P has special order factory nav..wasnt stock for us Plains
Buy a nice handheld/portable nav and stick on top of dash
It makes an amazing differance in saving gas by planning routes running errands, and finding backroads you wouldnt normally explore--the TL is great for that~
Also keeps you alert on long drives,,finds gas stations or food etc.

01tl4tl

the shocks are normally good for well past 100-150!!
except those who need a reason to go with aftermarket lowered setups,,will decide they are bad before then (or so the wife was told)

look for oil trails on them as sign of seal leakage and part failure

Kasanova King

Yeah, that sounds pretty good, I'll get all the cleanings done first, then reset. Is there a link with some pics for the air plate cleaning and the throttle control springs?

Yes, I will have to get a decent navigation unit, now that you mention it...my job will be in outside b to b sales so I'm sure the unit will pay for itself in gas savings alone in less than a year.


Hmmm...good stuff. Thanks again, your info. in this thread alone has probably already saved me hundreds (if not more) in future repair bills!

01tl4tl

I dont think we have the air plate in the seafoam diy--
remove top engine cover plastic
remove air tube from air filter box to engine
you are looking at the TB open end-
spray the plate inside
operate throttle via assembly there, it opens plate to get the back and edges with carb cleaner

wd or silicone spray or deep creep all work well for the lube on spring assembly

Kasanova King

Awesome, thanks! Tons of good info. in this thread, I will be referring to it all the time!