we all talk good handling for bimmers and our cars, but can we define it? what does good handling mean? great handling? ultimate? EVERYONE PLEASE COMMENT...

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Some Said, "TL Type S," Soon They Will Say, "Wannabe TL-S." Navi, Side Cuts, Tint All Around, Interior Footwell Lighting, Eibach ProKit, PIAA 1700x Fogs custom cut into side holes, Inspire Tails, 17" Type-S Rims with 215/45/17 Bridgestone Potenza RE730's, Visor, Wood Shifter, Comptech Sways making me ride on rails...

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...026&Auth=false

 

can take corners fast, with confidence and control is what i look for.

 

in fair weather, a car with that is neutral with a close to 50/50 weight distribution that does not necessarily understeer or over steer. This all with minimal body roll of course. Just like the Italian perfection, "Ferrari." As they call it.

Look at car magazines and in the techs. look for cars that have near 50/50 percent weight distribution and they will probably comment on its good handling characteristics.

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2000 Satin Silver TL, 17x7.5 ATP wheels with Pirelli 215/50/17 P7000SS, OEM spoiler, K&N filter
Mods to come: Tint, Catz MSX fogs, superwhite highbeams, hopefully headers, exhaust, H&R springs, black tint rear blinkers, front and rear three-way speakers with tweeter setup and some rockfordfosgate amps....etc.

 

Your car doesn't feel like it is going to tip over when you take corners fast.

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"Man thinks that, they own things And man sits high upon thrones
When you die tell me what the fvck you own
When your skin, flesh, and bones find a permanent home
As food for worms or fossils trapped in stone."

 

You mean like my explorer?

 

Your Explorer probably feels like that when you take the corners at 2mph...

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Just my 2 cents...

 

I know I'd get criticized by all hardcore extremists, but a decent way to get a feel for it is to bust out with Gran Turismo 2, and buy all the cars you want to know about handling, then go to a certain track one you know really well with lots of hairpins, chicanes, and tricky spots and just go through it with every car.

I know its just a video game, but you have to agree, you will almost never get the chance in real life, to drive a viper, then a Supra, then an NSX, then a RUF BTR, then a Lancer Evolution, all back to back for comparison. I think only a handful of people will ever get to in their lives, much less any normal people like us.

But anyways, what's really interesting to me, is that among the top breed of sports cars, some handling characteristics are favored over others...

A viper for example, is very recoverable through a turn where you accidentally initially oversteer. Its so easy to control with the throttle and front wheels.

On the other hand, cars like the Lotus Elise, when modded for a little more power, become almost undrivable. The car is beyond twitchy in the turns. I guess its the low total mass, almost non existant overhangs, and mid engine layout that give it these characteristics.

The NSX is somewhat the same, but not as extreme. A mid engine is hailed as the ideal layout for good handling, but personally I like the feel of a well tuned viper or supra. You can't get sideways 90° with an NSX and not spin out, whereas a Supra or Viper could pull it off.

Also very fun cars to drive are high high hp Skylines, and Porsches. With AWD you can power through the turn much more than a Viper Supra which would just give up and spin out. And coming out of the turn, the snap back into a straight line after powersliding is really cool.

But personally, there's inherent fun to leaving patches of rubber after you punch from the line, which most AWD's don't have power to do. Which is why I like RWD's.

Again its just a game. Don't get out on the streets and try it unless its an autocross, or a good flat empty parking lot with no light pole's in good visibility.

Its all really up to the driver as to what he or she prefers in handling.

 

LOL... that is like saying: "You want sex go to the web..."
Come on you can't get a feel for the car on your screen...

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Just my 2 cents...

 

I think good handling is the ability to take corners at high speed without lose control. In case under/oversteer occur, the driver can recover from it easily...

Then there's a great steering feel, which means that the car might not be able to take turns fast, but it communicate with you.

Take the Vette for example... I have never driven it, but I was talking to a Vette owner and he said that the car handles pretty damn go, but once you lose the tail, it's hard to get it back. Makes it dangerous in bad weather. On the other hand he said that his winter beater 323ci have a better steering feel, but the vette can take the same corner faster.

just my 2 cents

 

How many times did I say in that post, take it with a grain of salt, or I know its just a game, but for what its worth?

Did you even read the whole post? I don't mean to be talking down to you, but you come back with me with such a demeaning tone, that I can't do anything but.

I'm just saying that he's better off knowing that Supras/Vipers are recoverable in high angle turns, mid engine's are very sensitive to steering due to low polar moment of inertia, awd's can power-on oversteer very easily and still be controlled.

Have you driven a Viper or a 355 with a speed gun? No? Well how do you know they go 0-60 in 4.x? You read it somewhere? Well that's like going to a sex education book and saying you had sex. Do you see where I'm coming from here?

He's better off having had the knowledge of the differences between cars and the certain types that are out there, instead of no knowledge at all.

Just as you're more aware of the sports car market though automotive enthusiast magazines.

Think of it like a G-tech pro. I would never use one as the ultimate end all be all of performance measurement, not nearly. BUT it is a good comparison tool.

Suppose my TL gets a 17.0 second quarter mile on a Gtech (way off) then my friend's GS400 gets a 15.7 second quarter mile. Its definitely inaccurate, but it sure is precise. The margin between the Quarters is what it ought to be, but the quarter times themselves are off.

Main point to take away from this is take it all with a grain of salt. And dude, lay of the freakin caffiene or ritalin or whatever you're takin. Relax, read the post and think about it some.

 

In order to get a good handling car you would have to consider so many factors.

Ideally you do want a 50/50 weight distribution, RWD, Neutral handling with a hint of understeer at the limit (atleast for the street), very little body roll, and an engine with a smooth powerband. Steering feel is also extremely important.

I mentioned a smooth powerband just because if you are using throttle induced oversteer and you get a nice spike in the powerband, most drivers would probably spin the thing out.... especially in the wet.

The Lotus Elise is an excellent car with some of the best handling you can get.... but when you add a stupid amount of power to a car that small, light, and with small tires... you'd have a hard time just putting the power down.

The Vette gets this problem just because of the front mounted engine and huge amounts of torque. The new Vette's have a very good weight distibution and excellent handling overall so they don't suffer from these problem much.... unless if the driver has a lead foot

 

Hey Bobatimez, I'll call you when i come down to LA with my S2000, and I'll show you what it means in my book.
1) ability to take turns with stability and predictability
2) minimal roll or sway
3) smooth ride with enough feedback to driver to make proper adjustments as road conditions change
Since so much of it is in how the body feels the feedback from the clutch, the gas, the steering wheel and the seat itself, it is really hard to define unless you actually drive something in actual conditions.

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1999 Satin Silver TL Dunlop SP9000 215-45/17-mounted on CL-S 17" Rims
H&R Springs-Axiss MetalMasterPads-Crossdrilled Rotors
-Inspire Tailights-20/30/40 tint

Y2k S2K Honda Roadster
- Mingster Aeroscreen, Smokin Front mesh Grill, Clear Sidemarkers...

 

Well... we can talk about who drinks too much coffee some other time... but it looks like you spend way too much time playing video games...
How can you talk about handling based on a video game??? It's a programmer who did the calculations for the handling, what you see is NOT the real car but a code behaving like a car, heck they can make a Yugo outhandle Porsche!!! Wake up and smell.... the COFFEE of course!!!

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Just my 2 cents...

 

"like it's on rails"

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1999 Dark Emerald Pearl TL w/ nav
Factory underbody kit and rear spoiler.
Comptech springs, sways, headers and exhaust.
RS Akimoto Funnel Ram III Intake.
18x7.5 +48 5Zigen Heidfeld wheels with 225/40ZR18 Nitto NT-555 tires.
Inspire Tail-lights with Polarg M-23 P8711R signal bulbs.
DEI Viper 550ESP Alarm
http://home.socal.rr.com/tada/socal28TL.htm

 

Some games can represent a cars handling pretty well.... but I can say that Grand Trurismo definetly isn't one of them.

You can never get the true feel of a car in a game... not even in an arcade machine... and especially not in a console.

As far as games that I think show pretty realistic handling characteristics.... I only know of 2.

Sports Car GT.... atleast for the PC I found it be pretty decent.
The arcade Game Ferrari F355 was in my opinion is one of the best. I just like it because you can constantly regulate the amount of oversteer with just your accelerator pedal.... so it rewards people that don't keep their foot on the accelerator the whole time. Oh and plus no hand brake... thank God.

 

being a teenager with a game console, I can't agree with that. Grand Turismo definetly IS one of them. It's one of the best racing video games out there! plus Grand Turismo 3 is coming out in May, they have CL-S in it, by then, we can all play the game and see what the owners of CL-S would say.
If you can't trust realistic video games, how could you trust a piece of paper with some numbers on it???



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2000 Red Hot TL w/o nav
Burlwood Trim and Shift Knob
Wood Trim Set
Gutter Guard Grill
Photos Of My RED HOT TL
I DON'T HAVE A LIFE

 

Ya know what? Forget it, you're too dense and ignorant to get it, aren't you? I put up there exactly what I mean, then you come back with the same statement as before.

Its like arguing with a 3 year old, they can certainly talk and make it sound like they know what they're talking about but they have no hard cognitive thinking skills.

Our pilots here at Delta Airlines are trained by simulators, Yes believe it or not, ignorant and biased individual that you are, they learn from video games. God forbid. I mean its just a video game. These guys paid $200+/hour get their training from a freakin monitor and joystick and a few switches. I mean its ONLY a video game, what can it possibly do for them, according to you, absoutely nothing! Monkey's are flying our 757's!

Ah our lives are in danger! Never fly an airline again!

 

A-motherf*ckin-men.

 

test drive a miata, and you all will know exactly what good handling is.

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'01 Lexus IS300
'91 Acura NSX
'95 Nissan Maxima

 

Sorry I beg to differ....programmers don't code the way they want to...they put in the right syntax into the code (dependent on the programming tool used), to achieve what the technical specifications state....the technical specs themselves are written by someone who is well versed with the functional side of things.....just my 2c



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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

 

Gran Turismo is widely regarded as being the most accurate driving game ever. It is certainly the most accurate I have ever played. Bravo1 is right about missing wheel feedback, though. That's a big drawback.

I like F=ma's suggestion about using GT to get a feel for what makes a good handling car.


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2000 Navi TL White Diamond Pearl
(they're magically delicious)

 

Well personally I think Gran Turismo is a very fun game to play, but it was designed to be run with a game pad, so I am sure that they made a great deal of sacrifices just so you would be able to control it.

As far as acceleration and things like that, it is probably pretty accurate... but when you can only go 100% on the accelator/brake, or turn 100% to the left/right.... I just find that taking all the realism out of it.

So therefore you can't accurately determine the cars handling, just based on the controlers. Unless if they sold a steering wheel, brake and accelerator package... then I will take it all back.... but I haven't seen it.

 

a short term for high performance is... BMW

 

try ferrari.


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'01 Lexus IS300
'91 Acura NSX
'95 Nissan Maxima

 

can u guys just shut up and answer my question. I feel like the car is big and heavy, but it never slips out under the turns i take, the body isn't rolling and the steering is very linear. I yanked it hard in the middle of the turn the other day and tried to make it slip, but it just jerked and stayed with the turn. can I test it out some more somehow?

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Some Said, "TL Type S," Soon They Will Say, "Wannabe TL-S." Navi, Side Cuts, Tint All Around, Interior Footwell Lighting, Eibach ProKit, PIAA 1700x Fogs custom cut into side holes, Inspire Tails, 17" Type-S Rims with 215/45/17 Bridgestone Potenza RE730's, Visor, Wood Shifter, Comptech Sways making me ride on rails...

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...026&Auth=false

 

Allright do this, find a turn where there's lots of room if you go wide, preferrably one that normal people would take at about 20 mph, now take it at 60 mph, and try to follow the same line. You'll feel the car start to go wide ever so slightly and sort of not in the direction that your wheels are pointing. That's understeer.

If you do this in the rain the effect is amplified.

Also make absolutely sure you do this in a place where you know there are basically NO consequences of going wide. (like ditches or fences or other cars or oncoming traffic etc)

You could setup some cones in a parking lot and that wuold be great.

 

The bottom line is that a great handling car goes where you point the steering wheel. PERIOD. All that talk about understeer, oversteer, 50/50 weight distribution, RWD, etc. Ignore it. If all those things could tell you that a car will handle well, then the CL-S should've gotten its tail kicked by the BMW, but it didn't. If you're going so fast around a turn that you think your next stop is the morgue but you stay on the road, that's a great handling car. Given this, my '92 Eagle Talon Tsi AWD was a great handling car.

BTW, GT/GT2 is very realistic. I have owned a mid-engine/RWD car, a front-engine/AWD, and 2 front-engine/FWD cars and driven a front-engine/RWD extensively and the inherit characteristics of those drivelines are accurately represented in the GAME. I'm drooling waiting for GT3 for PS2!!!
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John

2000 TL WDP Nav

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by TLinBama on February 10, 2001 @ ]</font>

 

obviously, you're not trying hard enough.

 

Gran tourismo does not have a throttle pedal like F355 challenge does. It has a BUTTON for the gas (which means you can only apply 100% or 0% throttle in an instant). how can you say that accurately represents real life?

 

This topic is getting edgy...

 

Very well said. I couldn't have said it any better.

Hey Bobatimes, I know what you're saying. I feel exactly the same way about my TL. It feels very heavy. Well, it's a sedan. I was used to driving two door coupes (Preludes) in the past... so when I first go my TL, it felt really weird. It swayed a lot. And it felt as if I didn't have complete control over my car. It just feels different when you're driving a sedan. You can't expect it to handle like a sports car. It's just not meant to be driven like that. But like Yu888 said, you're TL should handle a lot better than stock TL due to all the mods you got. If you are unhappy, I'd say trade it in for more sporty sports coupe.

 

hey boba, with the equip you already have, you have pretty damn good handling, especially for our sized car. I dont have the sways and I already know the 45 tires and springs combine for a great ride and handling. I say you find an open track day and try it out, or better yet, take a performance drive class where they will teach you to push the car and then try it mildly on the TL to see what you think.
test driving a Miata is not actaully a bad idea, the size and weight of that car makes its handling characteristics pretty good.

 

thankx guys. with those criteria, i feel much better. bmw ain't got nothing over us...

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Some Said, "TL Type S," Soon They Will Say, "Wannabe TL-S." Navi, Side Cuts, Tint All Around, Interior Footwell Lighting, Eibach ProKit, PIAA 1700x Fogs custom cut into side holes, Inspire Tails, 17" Type-S Rims with 215/45/17 Bridgestone Potenza RE730's, Visor, Wood Shifter, Comptech Sways making me ride on rails...

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...026&Auth=false

 

With all due respect, I don't mean to bash our car or worship BMW here. But... BMW handles a lot better, and it's a lot more fun. Especially if you take performance seriously. Now, since out TL is a sedan after all, it's still a good car. But even with all the mod you can ever find on the suspension, it can never handle like a BMW.

Maybe AC can comment on this... but I will try to explain why. Oh, and of course I have driven both cars, and I did spend a lot of times behind the wheel of a BMW. Okay, so here are the things that makes the differences.

1. Weight, the heavier the car is, the more mass it carry while cornering. Which means that the tires have to take more forces. Now, the heavier the car is, the faster it will reach the limit of the tires. While more weight on the tire means more grip, but when cornering, the outside tires will take more forces than the insides tires. The heavier the car is, the sooner the outside tires will reach to the limit. I am explain more on this one, but I hope you get the idea.

2. Poor Weight Distribution - it's about 50/50 for BMW, and 62/38 for us. How much of a difference does it makes? Well our car is about 900lb heavier in front if caculated it right. When braking hard, even more weight transfer to the front. That's why we have the nose dive, and the difference in weight will cause understeer. Because the slip angle will be great on the front wheel since they carry more mass.

3. Even worse that our car is FWD. The front wheel slip angle will be even greater if you press on the gas. This again cause understeer. Of course we know that BMW have about the same weight. (if you compare to the 530) However, with a better weight distribution, RWD, and their suspension setup. The BMW will understeer, but you also have the option of "power oversteer"

Let's say during normal driving, both car understeer. The only option we have is to let go of the gas, and brake perhaps. RWD can choose to do the same, or hard on the gas and power oversteer. Of course you have to counter steer and be really good at what you are doing to control power oversteer. But that depends on the car as well.

Well, I know it's long and it's kinda crapy. But that's the best I can do 7:00 in da morning. I hope this helps...

p.s. I wish my car handles like a Bimmer, but I know it never will. So, I guess I will get Bimmer after all. You only live once! hum.......

 

SL1200MK4 said it pretty well above. Handling is the ability of the car to move latteraly at speed.
Factors such as weight, weight distribution, suspension setup, center of gravity, wheels & tires, distance between front & rear wheels, left & right wheels, all affect handling.
Car & Driver had 2 great articles a couple of years ago (I have them somewhere in my attic) on the best handling car for under $30K, and over $30K. I think the prelude and M3 won, respectively. Meaning a front wheel drive (the prelude) does not automatically handle worse.
Car magazines test slalom, (going zig zag through cones as fast as possible), and test for lateral g force by going around in a big circle fast (over .85 is considered decent handling)
Im no expert, but I have spent the last 15 yrs of my life reading about the stuff, going autocrossing, and modifying my car to handle better.
Ultimately, the most important thing is driver ability. You can have the best handling car, but a better driver with a worse car will smoke you every time at a track. PERIOD.

Also, what someone said about gran turismo 2 above is actually agood idea to see what handling is. Take a "normal" car for example. Do a few laps on the same track. DO NOT ADD HP. Change to racing tires, take a few laps and see the difference in your times. Buy a racing suspension, test again, lower the car, stiffen the springs and sway bars, test again, lighten the car, test again. You'll see a huge improvement in your lap times even though you did not add HP. That's all because you inproved the handling of the car.


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- Nick, shopping for an 01 or 02, w/ or w/out nav

 

Can't agree with you more... But the sad thing is that a lot people drive a fast car, but don't have the skill to drive the car fast...

Oh and you sure know a lot more than me and other people (read "rice")...

 

haha, kenny