So, as the title said; essentially I'm coasting to an intersection and noticed the RPMs drop close to zero. I didn't realize the engine died until I tried to change lanes and the steering was stiff.

No CEL, none pending, but I did clear a P0171 code 3 days ago and have put about 200mi on it since.

My best guess right now is fuel pressure regulator based on P0171 troubleshooting steps in the manual. I'm also wondering if the fuel pump relay may have failed.

Other than those two, do you guys have any other recommendations?

Thanks in advance!

 

had that happen yesterday, check the main relay. mine was hot and cut the fuel pump off

 

Thanks. I repaired mine a few months back, guess I didn't do a good enough job. I'll order a replacement and see if it's fixed.

Another thing that I noticed was the parking brake light stays on when key is on - regardless of parking brake position. Typically the dash lights up for a few seconds and then they go out one by one but I'm seeing this now

Just curious if that's normal or not since I've never really paid attention to it before.

 

Are you sure the pedal has fully returned? If even slightly depressed, the light will stay on. Also check the level in the brake reservoir.

 

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-1...-again-999415/ In my case it was timing belt. Check through small opening in cover. obviously with that code you should start with fuel system checking.

 

Eman By all means continue on with the main relay and make sure that it is working. It will get hot. Here is a link to a thread where I had something similar, car stalled out multiple times but no codes. I think it has some good information, specially if you need to dig further.

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-p...-ideas-991328/

 

My apologies, guys. I been out of town the last few days so haven't had a chance to look at the car yet.

​​​​​​USPS says the relay and pressure regulator were delivered today so I'll pop em in and see what happens. Fingers crossed , really hope it's not a timing belt

 

i do not know. i did read german philosopher nietche and he said you should look for troubles.

 

The search continues, my friend.
The relay and pressure regulator did not solved the problem, but I can confirm that there is fuel coming into the manifold. Next up is spark, and then compression. If all checks out, I'll be looking into the timing belt. What should I be looking for here?

Oh, almost forgot: my battery was completely dead when I checked - I had to get a jump from my other car each time I tried to start it. Any chance the low battery did something to the ECU? Maybe also explains the dash lights....?

Appreciate all the suggestions so far guys, thanks a bunch!

 

First remove timing belt upper cover and see how belt look. Put photos here. Here is my belt at old 03 at two different occasions.

 

Eman, Given the information you just provided, I would first check the battery. I don't know which general auto parts store is around you but many will check the battery and charging system for free,. A battery going bad could cause some strange errors. An alternator going bad can also cause strange errors as the voltage could sag or exceed norms.

If your thinking timing belt, I would be checking the timing belt before everything; as I would not want to damage valves in case the belt is slipping or dragging.
If the P0171 code had anything to do with this it means you are getting plenty of air, as this error code is says it is burning too lean. Do you have an OBDII reader that also gives engine information such as Short term fuel trim? This would give a good indication if the fuel you are getting is the correct amount. You can test the fuel injectors and see if all are operating correctly. The manual has a procedure for this but there are other ways. Another question, do you have a copy of the manual?
Here is the link https://www.dropbox.com/s/alzlpd489p...ANUAL.pdf?dl=0

 

Here are the fuel trims and air readings I grabbed back when the code popped up. I think these were taken after I cleared the code.

At idle
on the highway. After driving about 40 miles

I also initially thought it was too much air, so I checked the MAP vs throttle position:

Throttle / MAP (inhg)

• 9.8% / 6
• ​​​13% / 12-13
• 31% / 25-27
• 56%+ / 30

These all seemed within normal range to me though. What do you think?

Regarding the alternator, I just remembered my gf had a similar incident on the highway and it turned out to be the alternator. We have AutoZone and Advance within 1 mile, any chance they'd be willing to make a house call? Or can I take the battery and alternator to them for test?
I'm cutting out of work early today so I can get a head start on the timing belt. Photos should be up this evening.

Thanks!
Edit: MAP & throttle table fixed

 

Interesting. The first picture of the fuel trims shows you just cleared the memory as the long and short term are the same. A reading of 10.9 says that the computer is feeding more fuel to keep the air/fuel mixture good. The trims should be between +/- 10, The second reading shows the car is not getting enough gas and is trying to compensate by adding more fuel. Over 20 is maxed out. Do you have Fuel Pressure gauge?

The car battery and alternator can have a few checks at home. You can measure the battery using a voltmeter. Should be about 12.7 - 13.4 vdc, if the car is idling it should be about 13.4 - 14.4vdc. When I suspected my battery in the past, I would bang on it a bit to help settle any growth of metals between plates. Then charge the battery, and if it was low or ran low quickly I would either buy some battery acid and add to each cell (when I was low on cash) as this could help make it last a few months or I would buy a new one (if I had the cash).
The alternator is bit more tricky as it needs a load to see if it performing correctly. One was is to start the car and disconnect the battery, if the car is still running the alternator is good or ok. If the car stalls the alternator is bad. We used to replace the diode packs in them but I don't know if you can find them now days.
Auto parts stores are not repair shops so I doubt anyone will come to your home. You should call them and see if they can bench test the battery and alternator.
Right now you are still at the part where you need to identify a cause. This can be many things at this point but the more information you provide the better others can help. Lets eliminate the easy stuff you have concerns about such as the battery, alternator, and timing belt.

 

Timing belt at TDC, looks like it's ok. Belt also looks fairly new (<10k miles on it, although it was done 2yrs ago).

I happened to check the oil while working around the dipstick and it was below the minimum mark. Last oil change was pretty recent and I don't see any leaks so I suspected it was burning oil and started checking the plugs.

Didn't get to all of them yet, just cylinder 4 & 5. Both looked like the photo below.

Unfortunately I tried a compression test and got the threaded adapter stuck in the plug hole so I ended up spending a lot of time trying to get it out. I gave up and put some silicone spray in the plug hole, then applied loctite on the hose end and threaded it back into the stuck adapter. Hopefully by tomorrow the loctite will hold it together enough to break the cylinder end loose. I'm open to other ideas if you guys have any. I did get to test #4 & #5 though and both were around 175psi.

Also confirmed that the battery is completely dead, so I'll be replacing it.
I'm taking the alternator to AutoZone tomorrow for testing too.

Also, given what I've found today, is it worth testing all the cylinders or should I pivot to something else?

 

Sorry about the compression gauge. Hopefully the threads aren't damaged. The timing belt looks good, plug looks good. I would do the battery / alternator test and fix and see if you still have the same problem. When I have an issue like this I prefer to get all the info I can, so if I started on the compression test I would get all cylinders since your there. The minimum is 135PSI so your doing fine. Up to you if you want to finish looking at the 4 remaining cylinders.

If the battery/alternator fixes the problem obviously you just need to clean up.

If it doesn't start let us know and we can give you more educated guesses.
I know you said the call stalled while driving but can I assume (when the battery is good) that the car still starts? I know you took fuel trim readings. Did you get O2 sensor readings?

Normally you have about 80-110 PSI at the fuel pump output at the damper you should have 48-55 PSI for 01 to 03 TLs and 41- 48 PSI for 99 & 00's. You can look this up in the manual. Page 11-164 & 165.

Don't need that yet.

 

Thanks Jon. I got a new battery, and the alternator tested fine at AutoZone - still no start though 😕.

The stuck also hose came out fine and the plug screwed in nicely so I think the threads are still ok. On to the next 4 cylinders now then.

Regarding the o2 readings, here are a few charts I grabbed around the same time as the trims I showed earlier.

Cruising on the highway

Mixed driving, some stopping, acceleration, coasting

Same as above

I believe this was idling at a light

Red is upstream. Anything jump out to you?

They seemed ok to me, which is why I cleared the code. figured the car had been sitting for a few weeks and maybe needed some time to adjust everything - clearly I was wrong lol.

 

You do not have a problem with the timing belt nor with the engine. Visually check wiring. Pull out one of coil over plugs, like one inch up and do you hear sparks? This should be some problem with the ignition system.

 

Well, I already took the fuel rails off so might as well see that through. A storm's coming so had to shut it down for today. I think at this point I would agree that the engine is not what's preventing ignition. I am concerned about the oil level I found though, and also the fuel trim codes. But that may be unrelated.

Once I get everything back together I can start looking at the electrical stuff. For now I'm gonna do some maintenance while I have the top dismantled. I found an OEM set of injectors for 69.99 on eBay so might as well take advantage.

Also, is it typical to have oil on the engine side of the throttle body?

Appreciate the input guys!

 

Has the fuel filter ever been replaced?

 

The o2 sensors look fine. You now have a new battery and know the alternator is fine. So it is not a main voltage problem. Out of curiosity does the immobilizer key display come on and go out when you try to start the car or does it stay on?

When the car stalled when driving were you able to drive home or did you get it towed? Has the car started since that time?

As Whitetiger5 has mentioned when did you last change the fuel filter? Both Whitetiger5 and I are very familiar with problems from a bad fuel filter. They don't just clog up they can crack so even though the fuel pump is running well and there is gas getting to the rails the pressure is too low to reliably operate. The regulator can't increase pressure it is there to reduce the fuel pump pressure, so replacing that won't help. I put in the link to one of my old threads in a previous response above and you can read through it to see what I went through , Thought I was going nuts.
Did you download the manual?

 

My apologies gentlemen, we got a bunch of rain the past few weeks and I just never found the time. Whitetiger,Last owner said the fuel pump was replaced in 2021. She had the relay issue and shop went through replacing everything BUT the relay, she eventually sold the car to me. Jon,
thanks for the link, I must've missed it earlier but it sounds like what I initially experienced. I had to get it towed back home and it hasn't started ever since.

I did get a copy of the manual, and so far have traced all circuits from the battery to pcm to engine for the following:

• Ignition coils
• Camshaft position sensor
• TDC sensors
• Crankcase sensor
• PGM relay

voltage, continuity, and resistance are all within spec.

The immobilizer indicator is also working as expected: 2-sec on, blink 5 times after key off.

I don't have any gauges on hand but I'll pop the pump out sometime this weekend for inspection

​​​​​​

 

Eman_clp,
When you turn the key the pump will come on for 2 seconds before you start. If you have someone that can turn the key to the position before it cranks, you can listen in the trunk. If you need to put a screwdriver handle to your ear and place the blade on the fuel pump, then have someone turn the key, you should hear it turn on.
Besides the cracked fuel filter, shown in the link, I have also had cars with a bad fuel pump and worked on several were someone replaced the fuel pump but used regular fuel line not submergible fuel line. The fuel line connected to fuel pump melted away or burst.

 

Yep, here's your burst pipe - good call Jon!

replacements are on the way so I'll report back once they go in.

Thanks again fellas!

 

Well I finally got the car to start last weekend, unfortunately it just sputtered for about 10seconds and then died. Eventually I realized it may be an air leak from when I removed the intake (reused the old gaskets) so I got new gaskets and replaced them today.

Car is running now, but I have P1399 and some other misfire codes. Here's what happened

• On the first startup there was a loud hissing sound and it was running pretty rough, 0.00V reading on O2 sensor 1 (with DTC), STFT around 45%.
• Second try: Hissing sound got much quieter, O2 sensor 1 voltage now reading between 0.5V and 0.9V, STFT now around 20%. Intake manifold pressure around 11inHg (used to be 7inHg). Now I have misfire codes on 1, 3, 5, & 6.

I suspect it's fuel pressure, but my intake still has a slight hissing sound that may indicate a leak.
Also remember that my tank was open for about 2 weeks while waiting for the new fuel filter. What are the chances the fuel went bad in that time?

 

Assuming that there was no water introduced (like rain) or high humidity, the gas should be good for three months or longer. Given that the tank was "open" I would add some dry gas to the tank to ensure water is not a problem. You can also add some fresh gas.

Hissing is not good there is a vacuum leak somewhere. You mentioned removing the intake, was that the intake manifold or just the throttle body? If you removed the intake manifold and intake cover you should replace those gaskets. I know these are metal gaskets but these cars are 20+ years old, the metal has been compressed and heated and cooled thousands of times, the gaskets will take a set. Never reuse the gaskets.

Check hoses etc again for cracks, cuts, or disconnects.
Put in dry gas and some fresh gas.
I would see if you can find the leak and repair that before moving back to the fuel pressure.

 

I'm not familiar with dry gas, can you explain?
We did get a lot of rain over those 2 weeks, and the sunroof and windows were cracked open to vent the fumes. I didn't notice any signs of water in the tank though.

As for the intake I removed the whole manifold when I replaced the injectors so I put in a new upper and lower gasket along with the gasket between the TB spacer and manifold.
The kit did come with 2 lower plenum gaskets which stumped me a little bit. I ended up using 1 gasket since that's what was installed before. Should there be 2 gaskets?

And as a sanity check, these are the torque specs I used on the intake:Lower plenum: 16ft-lbUpper plenum: 8ft-lbTB: 16 ft-lbtightened from inside to out per the manual, rubbed a little oil on it to help with the the seal.
I guess i can try the spray test around the intake as a start.

 

Is the 'tab' on the upper gasket facing the rear or towards the firewall?

 

Dry gas or Dri gas is basically methanol and/or isopropyl that bonds with water and evaporates some and allows the rest to be burned. You should be able to get it at an auto parts store or Amazon. Picture is below,


Dry gas - removes moisture in fuel.


If I remember correctly the 2 gaskets are included for the lower but only use the one that fits. I believe that one is for the model that has the more individual pipe looking manifold and the other that has the flat top manifold. I think the 99 had pipe and the 200-2003 had the flat.



2000-2003 TL

99 Tl


16ft-lbs and 8.7ft-lbs are correct (page 9-3). Be careful of over-torqueing bolts as it is easy to strip out Aluminum blocks. Picture below. Did you clean out the grooves in the intake manifold (red arrow)? They are part of the EGR system.

 

Looks like it's on the drivers side, pointing towards the TB. Is that correct? I wasn't 100% sure about which way it went, just tried to match the groves as best as I could.

Sorry for the quality, took it in the dark.

Whoops! I did not compare the gaskets, the parts list said it was 2x of the same part number so I just grabbed one and put it in. I'll try the other gasket if nothing else works.

I ​​​​​​tried spraying carb cleaner to find the leak but nothing showed up. Couldn't get a good spray under the intake manifold though, so I can't rule it out yet. If I put my ears close to it I can hear a lot of air passing through but I just can't pinpoint the hiss.
I remember the groves were pretty clean, very little soot in there. I remember the mechanic cleaning it out when he did the valve cover gaskets last year.

I'll also pick up some dry gas tomorrow, definitely worth a try if I can save the gas - I got a whole tank in there 😆!!

Thanks again guys

 

The problem turned out to be the fuel injectors. The loud hissing was IAC fully open, no air leaks. Anyway, the lesson here is stay away from eBay injectors.

 

Glad you found the problem. The next time you have a problem make sure you let us know what you replaced. I would have told you the ebay and amazon fuel injectors will cause problems. Certain parts on these cars have very little tolerance for aftermarket parts. The fuel injectors are one of them. I tried the same thing you did but very quickly realized they were not going to work well. OEM or SMP (works most of the time) would have best. In any case congrats on fixing the issue and your perseverance in doing it yourself.