<b><i><h1>It is Official!</h1></i></b>

I was at Columbia Acura in Cincinnati this morning, testing out the RSX-s (interesting, but passed on it).

I asked the dealership manager if they had codes yet on the 6-spd Type S. He said YES THEY DO, AND THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD TO EXPECT FIRST DELIVERY IN JAN/FEB!

Just thought y'all might like to know!

 

That's good and bad

It's great that they are going to do it.

It's not so great, because I could care less for the CL. When it comes out for the TL Then,

I'll be happy

 

I doubt it'll make it to the TL, I really do. The reason why they're going to put it on the CL (Type-S only), is that the car mags have complained so much that they want to wipe that off the radar screen. The CL is defidently marketed more in a sporty direction than the TL, even the TL Type-S. And for that reason I think the 6 speed belongs in the options menu for the CL Type-S, but not the CL Premium, or the TL (Premium or Type-S). If you look at Acura's (Honda's) philosophy and their patterns (look at the Legend), and you'll see that the 6 speed will most likely remain a coupe only option. Realistically if enough magazines and dealers gripe about not having the manual, and if you see a lot of competing models (Lexus, Infinity, etc) offer the manual 6 in their mid size luxury sedans, then you may see Acura do it, but I really think Acura is going to atleast wait and see what the manual does with CL sales before they even let the topic come to the decision table.

 

You hit the nail on the head. That is the same conversations we have at the factory, trying to determine what EGA is going to throw at us next. Even my buds still at the factory (I've since moved on) in my old newmodel group haven't heard of a 6-spd TLs.

 

The IS300 is coming out w/ a six speed manual... isn't that a TL competitor?

 

No, the ES300 is the TL competitor.

 

I truly dissagree, what those 2 doors mean, when you have the same engine, same everything, but just 2 doors. This s**t is getting me . Oh yeah is coming for the CL and not for the TL. That ugly a$$ CL. aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh . Be positive....It will come out for the TL.

 

Once the cost of introducing the 6-speed is sunk - it makes no sense to not offer it on the TL. They both share the same platform, engine, drivetrain, and interior parts. I think Acura will do it eventually just for the publicity. All of car magazines would want to test the car which would translate into millions of dollars in free promotion for Acura. There was a quote from Acura saying the 6-speed TL-S would be about a year behind the CL-S. That makes sense as CL sales are plummeting and the TL will probably need a shot in the arm in 15-18 months. My guess anyway...

 

I understand where you are coming from, but consider the production issues:

1. We build cars in batch multiples of 60 (30, 60, 120). Production will have another wrinkle to worry about when scheduling cars.

We have a hard enough time meeting demand for the TL and TL-s as is, without another variation to shorten available production time. We could sell a lot more automatics than we can build - why short-change that with a limited appeal manual?

2. Market research says there is very little demand for a manual in this car (I know, not among enthusiasts, but we are a minority). A luxury sport sedan is not a strong market for a manual tranny. BMW has them, but they have a more sporting market base (and they sell damn few 6spd 5-series).

3. While they could use the same tranny box, the CL and TL are different cars on different platforms. EGA (honda speak - Engineering Group - America) will have to design all new application mounts for the tranny, and this cost would be unique to the TL (and unlikely to be recovered).

I hate to say it, but take it from the factory - it isn't likely.

 

Really? Where did you see/hear that quote?

 

Pedestrian,

There's a link on a post in the CL forum that takes you to one of the car rag sites that quotes an Acura exec. Do a search over there - they follow the 6-speed news very closely.

JDL75,

What you said makes sense - but. Even if the 6-speed increased sales of the CL 50% it's still a fraction of the number of TL's produced. Applying your logic, there would be no 6-speed at all as it would never be economically justifiable on a production cost basis alone. When Acura determines payback on an initiative I'm sure they factor in publicity and image enhancement as part of the financial justification. If they don't they're the only ones. I just read that Acura is spending $50M on the launch of the RSX. At 30K projected to be sold this year that comes out to $1,600 per car. Marketing justification tends to be much more mystical than pure financial analysis which is routed in logic.

And with all the newly redesigned competitors to the TL being launched in the same price category over the next 12 months, I think more production time will be the least of Acura's worries fifteen months from now when they’re still selling a car whose design will be over four years old.

I guess only time will tell...

 

I don't really think so because the IS300 is so darn small... I think it's more a BMW 3 series competator...

 

Putting it in the TL is going to cost them money because they'll have to modify the line... Yeah, they've already sunk the cost of designing the tranny, the linkages, the new ECU's, the new gauges, all that stuff that goes along with the tranny. Don't get me wrong, I really want to see the 6 speed make it to the TL, but Acura has been classically bull headed about these moves, they want to have performance don't get me wrong, but they don't want to loose the luxury standard and snobbyness by saying NO we wont' do it.... Like I said, if the car mags don't gripe for it, and if the dealers don't gripe for it, then don't expect it.... There was so much gripe with the CL that they nearly had to.

 

Exactly what I've been saying.... The demand really isn't there, and the factory has a LOT of inconveniences by sticking this in... Production will go down in total number right?

 

Realistically, the TL makeover that occured this spring was just a makeover to hold the car over for another 2 model years. Most likely the 2004 TL will be a newly redesigned TL if their refresh rate occurs on schedule (every 4 to 5 years).

 

ill probably thinking of trading my 01 TL for the new design. maybe then they will have a 300hp TL... wonder how it would look like. they better improve the breaking system. cuz these ones just sux a$$

 

IS300 is coming out with a 5spd not 6.

 

You left out one part - Acura can sell every TL they can produce. The market research does not support enough volume of the 6-spd in the current market, with the current car, to justify reducing overall production capacity (it takes time and money to change the line over, move different parts around, stage seperate trucks in the yard for the special tranny configurtations, etc. This also decreases production capacity). There is more than enough demand for the 5-spd auto to keep the bean counters happy.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see the 6-spd in the TL, but it isn't gonna happen before the 2004 model, when we get a new body style (Honda and Acura have commited to 5 yr cycles for major model changes).

BTW, do you know the demographics of the TL? The CL? This was considered when evaluating whether or not to put the 6-spd in the TL.

 

In addition, if the 6-spd demand is not sufficient to consume all the build cars, they will just sit in the dealerships' backyards. Acura will then have to provide lots of incentives to sell them, making each sales a money-losing one. Just take a look at how Acura is trying to move the Integra inventory, now that the RSX is out.

 

Actually I do. The variances aren’t really large enough to help support your theory. You're also being short sighted when you talk about prospects for future TL sales (with or without the 6-speed). I'm a marketing guy and you appear to be an ops guy - we'll probably never look at this the same way. Hazards of our respective professions I guess.


Age % of % of
Owners CL Owners TL

0-19 - 0.9 - 0.1
20-24 - 8.6 - 4.4
25-29 - 15.9 - 12.4
30-34 - 12.4 - 13.6
35-39 - 10.8 - 12.1
40-44 - 11.7 - 11.8
45-49 - 10.9 - 13.0
50-54 - 12.7 - 13.1
55-59 - 8.1 - 9.6
60-64 - 5.3 - 6.3
65-69 - 2.3 - 3.1
70-74 - 0.4 - 0.5
- 100% - 100%

 

I'm impressed with your data gathering. Yes, I have an ops background - as a plant engineer at Marysville and East Liberty. I suppose we will never see eye to eye. I have since moved into the business side of engineering, and can see the marketing advantage of saying "We've got a six speed TL". I really do. But the drop in available production isn't something we can't handle. We can not afford to tool Syama to build US -spec TL's the way we did the accord - there isn't enough volume to support tooling two plants. As I said, every TL that Marysville can build can be sold without the 6spd.

It all comes down to economics.

 

I was at the dealership earlier today and they said that they had no specific date that the CL was coming out with the 6 speed, but they did say that the TL-S will have a 6 speed shortly after the CL-S.
Ed

 

That's what I've been saying too.... Realistically they sell a TON of TL's without the 6 speed, and they're not meeting true demand for the product. For instance my local dealer has an empty lot right now, literally, all they have is a total of 6 vehicles (RL's and CL's). It's not that they don't get a lot of product (they're a precision dealer so they get a good helping of new cars), it's just they are all already spoken for the second they come off the hauler. Maybe once the new plant comes online they'll have more capacity, but even then I don't expect them to bring the 6speed to the TL in it's current form.

Also, what are your thoughts on the new plant, my understanding is that the end result will be more Odysseys and more MDX's and not an increase in TL or CL production capacities....

 

Believe me the dealers rarely are correct. I know a dealer, and their salesman always throw all kinds of stuff around, but when you talk to the manager/owner they will tell me exactly what they've been told, and it's not what the salesman are saying. Basically the dealer won't get told much until it's concrete and about to arrive, that's what I've found. So this means that the salesman adlib a LOT, and they do that to sell cars and keep your interest up....

 

OK, you want to hear the HAM roomer mill in action?

1. The new plant in Alabama will be for MDX production mostly. The Alliston plant can be kept busy on Odyssey. There is also internal (internal to Honda of America Manufacturing - HAM)speculation that R&D is going to release a full size pickup.

2. No one in their right mind will put a full size pickup into the US market w/o a V-8. Guess what? Approval has been given for a class-leading (in HP and Torque) V-8 to be developed for delivery in the new RL, probably 1 year after the initial launch. A 350HP V-8 is expected for 2004, with availability in the MDX as well.

3. Correct - there is no new production capacity expected stateside for the civic, accord, TL and CL in the new plants. However, Honda began the process 2 yrs ago to move motorcycle production to South Carolina, freeing up space for expanding the auto plant into the current motorcycle plant. That was on the drawing board last I saw. Intent at the time is that line would be most likely a dedicated coupe production (Accord), freeing MAP line 1 for Accord 4dr, Map line 2 for CL and TL, with Japan supplementing Accord 4-banger production.

MAP currently has an output capacity of about 440,000 units /yr.

 

I definately believe this... Wayne from Park Acura also verified that there is no sales code for a 6-speed CL for 2002, only for the auto. No sales code, no car. Doesn't mean it won't happen, just probably not as soon as everyone is hoping.....

 

Call Columbia Acura at 513.510.0100, and ask for Terry Anderson, the dealership manager. He had 'em.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jdl75

Hey Jdl75, if you don't mind me asking. Who do you work for?

Thanks

 

I now work for a Honda supplier. Worked for factory until recently.