newbie

thank Kris. I have been reading most of the thread dealing with the tranny, so I understand that the problem seems to be the heat/design. But it just seems that if it's poor design, which in turn causes the high heat, then most of the car will fail right?

suj220

what do you mean by "most of the car" will fail?

newbie

most 2nd-gen tl with the same tranny design.

fsttyms1

Correct, its only a matter of time before they fail

Type-T

Does Anyone Have The Contact Information To The Best Shop That Fixes Up These Trannies? Im Definately Going 3.5 Swap... I Read Up On A Thread In "cardomain.com...and Some Kid Did The Swap Along With A Supercharger"""""""nasty""""""" <<<<<<<<!!!!!!!!!!!

I Have The Money I Just Need The Complete Info..i Wish To Start Buying The Parts This Year.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

VR is out of business so is Speed Distributors. They offered the first built transmissions which were built by "Ed's Transmissions." Every case I've seen where someone purchased a built transmission from them has resulted in failure. Either on a basically stock car or a high horsepower car.

Level Ten has a horrible reputation and they have not built a transmission for anyone on this forum to my knownledge because of this. Stay away.

Dr. Evil has had decent success with the AV6 transmission and I have been told they could build a transmission for the CL/TL however it would most certainly be a test model.

Look there's only so much you can do to "upgrade" an automatic transmission and in our case it's all be tried before. New gears, new clutches, new converter, etc, etc. You can put the highest quality parts available in these transmissions and they will fail. There's a reason why a basically stock TL ruined carbon-kevlar clutches... the design on the transmission prohibits adequate lubrication this area of the transaxle and it will eventually wear away. You can beef up the internals all you want but unless you're going to re-engineer the transmission and come up with a new design you're stuck with a POS. That's all there is to it. I would never advise someone to spend any more than $40 on a transmission cooler to upgrade this transmission. It's a waste of money.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Why on earth would you want to do that to this car? Trust me I've been there.

If you don't have the complete info how do you know you have the money? It's going to cost damn near $10,000 or more to do a 3.5L stroker plus the supercharger if you want it done correctly. Why put that kind of money into a car that isn't worth more than $18k to begin with?

Take my word on this, i've been there. I'm on my second CL-S and my second supercharger (one for each car). It makes the car a blast to drive but honestly it isn't worth it and I won't do it again.

fsttyms1

Well Put
Thank You!

Type-T

I SEE YOUR POINT OF VIEW AND I AGREE SOMEWHAT BUT LET ME ASK YOU...

WOULD YOU BUY A $40,000 VEHICLE AND MODIFY IT ?

OR WOULD YOU RATHER BUY A $16-19,000 MACHINE WITH THE SAME LUXURY AND PERFORMANCE ASPECTS AS THE $40K CAR.......AND SPEND $7---9,000 MODIFYING IT IN ORDER TO MAKE A BEAST?

YES I HEARD ABOUT THE TRANNIES FAILING BUT WHAT REALLY CAUSES THEM TO FAIL?

OH AND ALSO IF YOU RACE YOUR CAR ON A DAILY BASIS ..I MEAN OFF COURSE ITS GOING TO BREAK ON YOU CONSTANTLY.

I MEAN WHAT CAN I TELL YOU..THERE GUYS THAT SPEND TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS HOOKING UP THEIR CARS BUT ITS A HOBBY ..AND A VERY EXPENSIVE ONE TOO..

THANKS

Type-T

IM NOT TRYING TO BE A DICKHEAD OR ANYTHING BUT WHAT IS THE POINT OF A PERFORMANCE FORUM...IN MY OPINION IT'S TO FIND A WAY TO CORRECTLY BUILD AND RECOMMEND PERFORMANCE MODS RIGHT?

MikePA

The fact that your last 2 posts were in all caps would tend to indicate otherwise.

That's what people are trying to tell you. Don't spend more than $40 (cooler) on trying to improve the tranny.

blk2001tlon19s

Mario,


I'm not sure where you are located but if you are looking into getting an aftermarket tranny made then check out the following shops.


www.dreviltransmissions.com - They haven't worked on the CL/TL transmissions yet however have been very successful on the Accord V6 transmission and they state they can make our transmissions stronger.

or

http://www.importperformancetrans.com/ - I know little about this shop. They are located in NJ and I have heard good things about them however I don't think they have built an aftermarket transmission for our cars(to my knowledge) but they told me they could when I talked to them about a month ago.

Good luck on modding the car...by the way, you make be lucky like some of us who haven't had transmission problems with mods on the car.

optiq

do a 6 speed swap. only alternative . this POS tranny has ruined my love for this car. 6 speed swap is out of the question., already almost 8 grand into the hole getting the tranny fixed. in the process of a lawsuit against this asshole ED

blk2001tlon19s

also it appears that the CL and TL uses the same axles so you probably can use the CL 6speeds' axles if you wanted to do the 6 speed swap

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Don't get me started on that. You're looking at close to $10K alone just for the transmission swap.

fsttyms1

For starters you need to remove the caps lock.

Well if you heard about the trannies failing you would also do a little reasearch and find out that there is NO FIX or upgrade thus far to the tranny to make it last. His point being why dump alot of money into making the car somewhat quick (no real potential to be really fast) and have a tranny that will continue to die? all the time and money wasted could be put into a car that is that fast already with all those features. (like a used CTS-V. which no tl could ever be as fast or as reliable)

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Yes I would modify a $40k car. And the 2nd Gen TL doesn't have the same luxury as anything similar sold in the $40k range.

What really causes the transmissions to fail? I'll give you the brief summary, there's enough threads on this already. The design on the transmission prohibits adequate oil to lubricate the clutch packs and 2nd gear. This isn't something that can be fixed by upgrading the internals. The only way it can be fixed is by redesigning the transmission which would cost a shit-ton of money (which is the reason why Honda/Acura didn't do it in the first place). The transmission is a ticking time bomb. I had one fail on me while my car was bone stock @ 40k miles and obviously it was replaced under warranty. Then I turned it into a 400 horsepower monster and it never slipped once.

You're right there's guys that do spend tens of thousands of dollars modifying their cars. But people that do that on this platform are silly IMO. The absolute limit for the 6-speed chasis is 400whp. Anything more than that is silly becuase you can't get traction in the first two gears and you're clutch will hate you. As for the automatic I couldn't even put a horsepower limit on the car because the transmission will fail under stock power. Again, no more than 400whp is good for this platform and realistically if you want to still be able to use 1st and 2nd gear no more than a little over 300whp should be achieved.

If you were to stroke the motor to add 300cc that'll set you back between $4,000-$5,000 if you want it done correctly. That alone will get you around 220whp and 200wtq. Add on the Comptech headers and exhaust, the Mugen mods, and a pulley and you're up closer to 255-260 and 250wtq and another $2,000 down the drain. Slap a S/C'er on and you're around $5,000 more once you add on the install time, gauges, etc. That would bring you up to 330-340whp and 280wtq. Your transaxle will hate you but you'll have a fast car.

If you want to mod a car and go a hell of a lot faster for a hell of a lot cheaper you need a different platform.

PS. I had the fastest automatic CL Type-S on this forum and I'm telling you it isn't worth it. It's not like I haven't been there and I'm trying not to justify it.

Kevinl83

omg!!!! im so mad.. this sucks.. i just got my 99 tl-p with 69k miles on it for $10k from a private owner.. and now i find out that Acura designed a half ass tranny.. ive only had my car for 3 weeks now.. im loving it so far and theres no signs of transmission failure. i also wanted to mod this car but now im pissed knowing that the transmission on my car is just waiting to crap out on me. i found this website and im loving it so far.. ive always wanted a 2nd gen TL now im so dissappointed. if its about the design of the tranny on our tls then all TL's are just waiting to crap out.. i shouldve got a v6 accord.. im so maaaaaaaad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

blk2001tlon19s

I believe the accord v6 had the same problem also but not everyone's transmission has went out just so you know.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

1) You should always fully research a car prior to purchase.

2) the '99 4-speed TL doesn't have nearly as many problems as the 5-speed in later models.

DAVERUBINO

Yeah, I feel your pain. I bought my '00 TL over a year ago and found out about the tranny afterward on here. Oh well. It's still running fine with 49K on it and I've put over 5K in mods so I love it as long as it lasts.

SatinSilverTypS

iTrader: (1)

i was under the impression that the 3.5 swap would yield more power. i got 220whp and 203wtq from just a pair of $200 megan headers. spending that kind of money for a 20hp gain from a 3.5 swap sounds a little wasteful to me. and keep in mind i'm not bashing anyone because it's cool that they did it, but i'm disappointed because i expected the gains to be a little higher.

SSTS

fsttyms1

the others that have done it were close to the #'s of the SC on hp gains

SatinSilverTypS

iTrader: (1)

that sounds more like it, in which case i would say it's a worthy mod to have an "all-motor" vehicle with that kind of power. not to get off topic but i wonder how the gas mileage is on the 3.5 swap since you're not running an AWD transmission. it shouldn't be significantly lower than stock mileage i would think.

anyway, back on the point...it's a shame that we can't have a reliable transmission without outsourcing, but i refuse to believe that we can't get one period. too bad VR isn't still in business.

SSTS

newbie

i guess the conclusion on the tranny is that it's helpless.

however, i am just curious as to why there isn't a major lawsuit against honda to have a real fix for this problem. granted that they have extended their warrantee on most of the 2nd gen (except my because they claim that the ones made in 2003 are all perfectly fine and don't have a tranny problem!!!! ) but i still can't see how that is satisfactory.

first of all, tranny just doesn't seem like a problem that should fail even past 100K when the car was not abused during ownership... I have never had a car where the tranny died on me, and that's way past 100K. secondly, it seems that when the tranny failure occurs it could be quite dangerous, for example if you are on the los angeles freeway (where I am), and knowing how everyone tailgates here, if you car happen to downshift all of a sudden (which probably will freak me out) and most likely cause the driver to also hit the breaks fast, it just seems that a major accident (with possible severe injury or death) could occur.

I mean there has been previous cases where tire companies where in serious problems without addressing a known problem... I don't see how honda is in a much different situation they are in.

any legal people here care to comment?

fsttyms1

thats just it, they didnt last either. some of them failed

fsttyms1

well its been tried, they got the NHSTA involved and they didnt find it to be a problem that deemed it to be a recall or to big a problem. (and im not sticking up for them) but there are other car companies out there with far worse problems that arent recalled (like chrystler and their transmissions)

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Only after many many more bolt-ons were added. The 3.5L alone will yield about a 30whp gain without intake or headers.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Believe what you wish, but like I said. They've built the clutch packs out of the stongest materials available; carbon-kevlar. And because they can't be lubricated properly they'll fail too.


Why? Their service and products sucked.

optiq

i had kevlar clutches and a tranny cooler. still klunked out. i dont know what the deal is. must get too hot from not enough lube.

SatinSilverTypS

iTrader: (1)

all i've got to say is that i *never* heard about a VR tranny failing until this thread and even now people were saying it was their first batch of trannies, so i dunno. maybe their stuff does suck, who knows. in the same respects i've heard from dozens of people how great level-ten is but everyone on this board says they suck. who knows. now i'm not saying it isn't true that there were failures, just that not too many people have come forward and stated they were unhappy with the product.

mrsteve - maybe you can help me out with a technical question here. if the tranny is prone to failure of the 3rd gear clutchpack regardless of how the driver treats the car, then how are there still so many TLs out there with their original trannies? has honda ever offered any kind of explanation? barring manufacturing tolerances and the occasional "fractory freak" i would imagine that 'a shift is a shift is a shift', in which case *all* TLs would see the same temperatures and conditions. given this scenario, why haven't the failure numbers reached the 70-90% mark of the total build? i'm just curious if any of the techs have ever raised this flag.


Optiq - when you had your tranny replaced were you able to keep the old one to investigate the failure mechanism? just curious.

SSTS

fsttyms1

To put it simply its HEAT. the honda engineers found that durring shifts the 3rd gear clutch packs were reaching over 350deg CELCIUS Thats over 662 Degres F. Nothing will last. as for why some last longer its most likly due to type of driving inviroment and frequency of driving

blk2001tlon19s

I talked to a guy at Dr. Evil transmissions the other day and they have rebuilt the 5 speed automatic once before but they didn't state what model car it was on, a CL or TL.

$4500 for the transmission
$750 Core Charge

optiq

nope, i had it replaced at acura and they kept the old one. they did inform me that whoever did the work on it stripped bolts broke brackets, used wrong bolts in wrong places and it also had missing bolts. really shitty craftsmanship

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Warranty?

blk2001tlon19s

12,000 miles, 6 months i believe. I didn't ask this time I spoke to them. Only asked on my original call. I know levelten has a 6 month, unlimited mile warranty.

suj220

thats close to the cost of a new engine ...maybe not a V6.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

blk2001tlon19s

A new transmission is more than that. I believe the TL/CL transmission is $5600 w/o the install. The transmission is one of the most expensive parts on a vehicle.

fla-tls

I need more customers that think like you!

Acura/Honda transmissions are complex, but they are nowhere near $5600.


....but - if you want one, I can certainly sell you one!