2003 Acura TL Type-s timing crank and cam shafts
#81
Burning Brakes
An unfortunate outcome...if I may make some suggestions: When you get it all back together; the manual states (once you've got the belt back on and properly tensioned: to rotate the crankshaft by hand 6 times.
Other Honda manuals also suggest that during this time, you should stop if there are any signs of binding whatsoever. to avoid confusion on binding; I'd take out the spark plugs so that you are not confusing compression with binding.
Thank you for documenting your process here; I am sure it will be quite helpful to others in the future...
Other Honda manuals also suggest that during this time, you should stop if there are any signs of binding whatsoever. to avoid confusion on binding; I'd take out the spark plugs so that you are not confusing compression with binding.
Thank you for documenting your process here; I am sure it will be quite helpful to others in the future...
#82
My unhinged, theory is if you drive and belt broke compression keep valves from pistons so is good chance that they are saved.
That photo of head with bent valve is helpful. It gives me an idea of what to look for when checking head at youpull.
#83
Intermediate
Thread Starter
An unfortunate outcome...if I may make some suggestions: When you get it all back together; the manual states (once you've got the belt back on and properly tensioned: to rotate the crankshaft by hand 6 times.
Other Honda manuals also suggest that during this time, you should stop if there are any signs of binding whatsoever. to avoid confusion on binding; I'd take out the spark plugs so that you are not confusing compression with binding.
Thank you for documenting your process here; I am sure it will be quite helpful to others in the future...
Other Honda manuals also suggest that during this time, you should stop if there are any signs of binding whatsoever. to avoid confusion on binding; I'd take out the spark plugs so that you are not confusing compression with binding.
Thank you for documenting your process here; I am sure it will be quite helpful to others in the future...
#85
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Just got the heads back yesterday actually. They look great. Since I had all the stem seals with the gasket kit I bought I got them to change all those as well, In the end I needed to replace 8 valves.. I’ll post some pics of the bent ones soon. Unfortunately they forgot one of my wire harness brackets so I’ll have to wait until Monday to get that back. Also a few odds and ends that I’m waiting for from the dealer.. parts sure take a while to come in these days.
#86
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (1)
^
Just curious, did the machine shop notate or mention that the cylinder head intake / exhaust valves are pre-adjusted, as part of their rebuild services, to OEM specifications?
Just curious, did the machine shop notate or mention that the cylinder head intake / exhaust valves are pre-adjusted, as part of their rebuild services, to OEM specifications?
#88
Intermediate
Thread Starter
#90
Burning Brakes
#91
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Finally got the motor mounts inspected. Turns out the front mount had 2 loose bolts here I was thinking they were shot.. anyways I got the heads cleaned off pretty much ready to put the head gasket on I just want to confirm that I have the correct orientation. There’s no writing that says up/down. But I’m assuming the writing would be facing up. It is also bevelled. If someone could confirm from the picture that this is correct it would be helpful. Thanks
#94
I am dumb
Skipped through this thread, so I'm not sure if it's been mentioned. But when I do my timing belt jobs, to make things easier, I loosen the rocker arm shafts. This way, there's no tension on the camshafts, and the valve aren't able to be pushed down, causing you to accidently bend a valve when getting everything lined up. That rear cam gear loves to spring back when trying to line everything up.
Just be sure to check the rocker arm/valve clearances with a feeler gauge if you loosen the rocker arms. I would do it anyways for the piece of mind after installing the heads since you're right there anyways.
Just be sure to check the rocker arm/valve clearances with a feeler gauge if you loosen the rocker arms. I would do it anyways for the piece of mind after installing the heads since you're right there anyways.
#95
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Error codes
Hello, first off thanks to everyone for all the helpful information from the beginning until now there’s no way I would of been able to get this car back on the road without the tips and guidance of everyone so thank you very much.
So I got the car rolling drove it for about 2 hours no leaks anywhere everything seems to be great. Next day I get in the car heading out to work and the engine light comes on along with the VSA and ! On the dash. I put my OBD reader to it and I got error P0172(system to rich);P0304,P0305,P0306 (cylinder 4,5,6 misfire),P0300( random misfire) and finally P1399(wheel speed sensor-2-G sensor circuit intermittent). I put in new NGK iridium’s ,brand new standard motor part injectors I ordered from rockauto. I put in a new knock sensor, idle air control valve, temp sensor on the rad and thermostat.All OEM parts.The engine runs pretty smooth overall but it has a bit of a hick-up and my gas mileage is worse than ever.. I had to re-wire a ground wire that attached to the rear head near the power steering pump. I’m wondering if this is an electrical issue I’m having with that or is it possibly my injectors. The injectors weren’t exactly the same as the ones I took out But the box explained that they would look different but are correct… I’m stumped. Not sure where i should start looking first.
Thanks
So I got the car rolling drove it for about 2 hours no leaks anywhere everything seems to be great. Next day I get in the car heading out to work and the engine light comes on along with the VSA and ! On the dash. I put my OBD reader to it and I got error P0172(system to rich);P0304,P0305,P0306 (cylinder 4,5,6 misfire),P0300( random misfire) and finally P1399(wheel speed sensor-2-G sensor circuit intermittent). I put in new NGK iridium’s ,brand new standard motor part injectors I ordered from rockauto. I put in a new knock sensor, idle air control valve, temp sensor on the rad and thermostat.All OEM parts.The engine runs pretty smooth overall but it has a bit of a hick-up and my gas mileage is worse than ever.. I had to re-wire a ground wire that attached to the rear head near the power steering pump. I’m wondering if this is an electrical issue I’m having with that or is it possibly my injectors. The injectors weren’t exactly the same as the ones I took out But the box explained that they would look different but are correct… I’m stumped. Not sure where i should start looking first.
Thanks
#96
USAF Veteran
When I searched for "P1399 Acura", it comes back as a Honda specific code for "P1399 Acura Code - Random Cylinder Misfire Detected". The FSM also calls out random misfire. So other than the P0172, they are all misfire codes. What's interesting is that Bank 1 (near firewall) is running rich but Bank 2 (near radiator) has the misfires. Loss of mileage makes sense since you have a rich fuel issues. Does your code reader have live data? Check the fuel trims.
It's also possible that, since you had a valve job done, you might need to recheck valve clearances.
It's also possible that, since you had a valve job done, you might need to recheck valve clearances.
#97
Recheck timing too. It is easy to see it through that small opening in plastic covers. I would advise you, if you have chance, to get help at some tricky jobs. For example, here you should hire a mechanic or friend, just to help you do timing properly. Pay mechanic just to adjust timing.
#98
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (1)
Just curious, were the injectors already present in the car faulty and replaced as a 'while you are there' item or were they just high mileage and you felt the need?
If you are up to it & if original injectors were OEM and not faulty, I'd put them back in to rule out whether the standard motor part injectors are problematic.
At last glance on RA, they appear to be pretty pricey at around $40+ each.
Then secondary to that, as Saudade mentioned, a valve clearance check may be in order.
The question is do you do the valve clearance check as part of the fuel injector reinstall experiment, reassemble, test the result for a few drive cycles or one at a time.
If you are up to it & if original injectors were OEM and not faulty, I'd put them back in to rule out whether the standard motor part injectors are problematic.
At last glance on RA, they appear to be pretty pricey at around $40+ each.
Then secondary to that, as Saudade mentioned, a valve clearance check may be in order.
The question is do you do the valve clearance check as part of the fuel injector reinstall experiment, reassemble, test the result for a few drive cycles or one at a time.
Last edited by zeta; 02-22-2023 at 01:09 PM.
#99
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Just curious, were the injectors already present in the car faulty and replaced as a 'while you are there' item or were they just high mileage and you felt the need?
If you are up to it & if original injectors were OEM and not faulty, I'd put them back in to rule out whether the standard motor part injectors are problematic.
At last glance on RA, they appear to be pretty pricey at around $40+ each.
Then secondary to that, as Saudade mentioned, a valve clearance check may be in order.
The question is do you do the valve clearance check as part of the fuel injector reinstall experiment, reassemble, test the result for a few drive cycles or one at a time.
If you are up to it & if original injectors were OEM and not faulty, I'd put them back in to rule out whether the standard motor part injectors are problematic.
At last glance on RA, they appear to be pretty pricey at around $40+ each.
Then secondary to that, as Saudade mentioned, a valve clearance check may be in order.
The question is do you do the valve clearance check as part of the fuel injector reinstall experiment, reassemble, test the result for a few drive cycles or one at a time.
#100
Pro
I assume that you don't see or smell gas (unless you remove the plugs). with those nice looking heads you should check the valve adjustment as mentioned by Saudade. As Zeta said I would start with the putting in the old fuel injectors and see if any of the codes change, What was different about the new fuel injectors? I used the SMP injectors a little while back and they looked exactly the same as the originals that were in there. Length, width, pintel were all the same.
#101
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (1)
J32A2 2G one's that I've pulled from the salvage yard & my old OEM's are marked KEIHIN on the side.
#102
Intermediate
Thread Starter
This is the explanation I got in the box…
The one on the left was broken when I pulled it out
This one has damage along with a few other ones.
#103
Intermediate
Thread Starter
I got all new O rings for the injectors with my gasket set I purchased, however It’s the bottoms of the injectors that are broken. Is it possible to replace just the bottom tips without buying new injectors?
#104
Pro
Not sure if you can find the correct Pintle cap for these or if you can get them installed (don't remember if they are swaged in). Were there any differences other than the top where they are inserted into the fuel rail. The top should have the same dimensions but according to the paper you posted the filter will look different. The outside diameter should be the same. The injector holes (bottom, inside the pintle cap) should look the same. The bottom diameter must be the same to fit into the injector seat at the proper angle and distance.
Last edited by Jon M; 02-22-2023 at 06:46 PM.
#105
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Not sure if you can find the correct Pintle cap for these or if you can get them installed (don't remember if they are swaged in). Were there any differences other than the top where they are inserted into the fuel rail. The top should have the same dimensions but according to the paper you posted the filter will look different. The outside diameter should be the same. The injector holes (bottom, inside the pintle cap) should look the same.
#106
Pro
Also you mentioned Cyl 4,5,6 had misfire codes but also had random misfire codes. Since 4,5,6 is the front bank of cylinders, closest to the front bumper, you should pay specific attention to the valve adjustments for those cylinders Of course, that is after checking the timing.
You replaced a lot of parts. Once this is solved it should run great.
You replaced a lot of parts. Once this is solved it should run great.
#107
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (1)
I know what you mean, that is the same area mine were damaged at upon removal. That plastic gets 'krispy' and tends to break easily, sometimes within the injector base and sometimes upon removal That's why I have a few salvage yard OEM's handy just in case.
Good question.
Looking at the Acura vendor websites, it does not appear to be a 'separate' part of the injector assembly that can be purchased individually.
Although I'm not sure, if you google your local area for fuel injector 'cleaning' or 'repair' service shops, since they specialize in this line of work, they may be able to source / obtain said component for replacement?
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Jon M (02-22-2023)
#108
I am dumb
I have attempted taking apart a fuel injector for the heck of it, because like Zeta, I too have a bunch of salvage yard injectors. Let's just say, to get to the inside, I had to use a cutting wheel on a Dremel.
Those pintel caps are not necessary to make a motor run. It's just to help it spray into a cone like shape, helping it mix with the air better that's being sucked in instead of unleashing it like a hose. Like Zeta mentioned, over time, they get hard & brittle from constant heat cycling and having to deal with constant high temps. But it wouldn't be the cause of a misfire. Before my J35A3 swap escapades, I was running my injectors with half of the caps being broken, and completely missing. She red lined perfectly fine, until the inevitable happened. It just won't run as efficiently as it could is all.
I have tried removing the pintle caps on OEM injectors, but they do not come off without breaking. It seems like they're glued on or something. The issue is that while you can get it off with breaking, there's an indented portion that the cap sits inside of. So you'll need to get something small enough to pick it out to seat the new cap.
I eventually just opted for some eBay 'remanufactured' injectors off eBay for $110. Brand new blue plastic caps & filters, and they've been running great ever since. Plus, the caps are actually removable on these.
Those pintel caps are not necessary to make a motor run. It's just to help it spray into a cone like shape, helping it mix with the air better that's being sucked in instead of unleashing it like a hose. Like Zeta mentioned, over time, they get hard & brittle from constant heat cycling and having to deal with constant high temps. But it wouldn't be the cause of a misfire. Before my J35A3 swap escapades, I was running my injectors with half of the caps being broken, and completely missing. She red lined perfectly fine, until the inevitable happened. It just won't run as efficiently as it could is all.
I have tried removing the pintle caps on OEM injectors, but they do not come off without breaking. It seems like they're glued on or something. The issue is that while you can get it off with breaking, there's an indented portion that the cap sits inside of. So you'll need to get something small enough to pick it out to seat the new cap.
I eventually just opted for some eBay 'remanufactured' injectors off eBay for $110. Brand new blue plastic caps & filters, and they've been running great ever since. Plus, the caps are actually removable on these.
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Jon M (02-22-2023)
#109
Pro
I had a FI that had a crack in the pintle cap and it caused inconsistent misfires. Mostly the caps are there to protect the nozzles. I agree that it is unlikely to find the correct caps and be able to install them. There are some that they are replaceable but I don't think it's feasible on ours.
cracked pintle cap
cracked pintle cap
Last edited by Jon M; 02-22-2023 at 10:37 PM.
#110
I am dumb
I had a FI that had a crack in the pintle cap and it caused inconsistent misfires. Mostly the caps are there to protect the nozzles. I agree that it is unlikely to find the correct caps and be able to install them. There are some that they are replaceable but I don't think it's feasible on ours.
cracked pintle cap
cracked pintle cap
What exactly would it be protecting the nozzle from though?
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Jon M (02-22-2023)
#111
Pro
LOL I never asked that question or thought about it, great point! Once it is installed what would it protect from, and now that you bought it up if it was mainly for protection why did I get a inconsistent misfires on that cylinder? I think you convinced me what I was told was incorrect. In that case the only thing I a can see would be air mixture control. Thanks for making me think about it.
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Thefireball (02-22-2023)
#112
Burning Brakes
The recommendation to check timing and valve clearances are good places to start. I would also verify correct spark plug temp and quality (premium) fuel are being used.
Being that the heads were recently rebuilt, where they resurfaced? If so, how much was removed? Reason being resurfacing removes material and alters combustion chamber size and in turn compression ratio. To counteract this, a thicker head gasket can be utilized.
There was also mention of rich condition on a particular bank. While some vehicles have the capability to distinguish bank 1 and 2, the 2g does not. To clarify, the ecu detects air fuel ratio based one o2 sensor, installed upstream of the cat. Thus, while the ecu may detect a rich condition (fuel trims high), there is no way to isolate to a particular bank.
As for the rich condition code itself, when a misfire occurs fuel is not being burned completely. Therefore, if cyls 4,5,6 are misfiring it makes sense that there will be a very rich condition.
With respect to the aftermarket injectors, I ran the same new injectors for a few months on a new motor with no issues. They also carry a 36 month warranty if they are faulty.
Lastly, for reference the service manual provides the following recommendations:
Being that the heads were recently rebuilt, where they resurfaced? If so, how much was removed? Reason being resurfacing removes material and alters combustion chamber size and in turn compression ratio. To counteract this, a thicker head gasket can be utilized.
There was also mention of rich condition on a particular bank. While some vehicles have the capability to distinguish bank 1 and 2, the 2g does not. To clarify, the ecu detects air fuel ratio based one o2 sensor, installed upstream of the cat. Thus, while the ecu may detect a rich condition (fuel trims high), there is no way to isolate to a particular bank.
As for the rich condition code itself, when a misfire occurs fuel is not being burned completely. Therefore, if cyls 4,5,6 are misfiring it makes sense that there will be a very rich condition.
With respect to the aftermarket injectors, I ran the same new injectors for a few months on a new motor with no issues. They also carry a 36 month warranty if they are faulty.
Lastly, for reference the service manual provides the following recommendations:
The following 2 users liked this post by 619rcr:
Thefireball (02-22-2023),
zeta (02-23-2023)
#113
Intermediate
Thread Starter
The recommendation to check timing and valve clearances are good places to start. I would also verify correct spark plug temp and quality (premium) fuel are being used.
Being that the heads were recently rebuilt, where they resurfaced? If so, how much was removed? Reason being resurfacing removes material and alters combustion chamber size and in turn compression ratio. To counteract this, a thicker head gasket can be utilized.
There was also mention of rich condition on a particular bank. While some vehicles have the capability to distinguish bank 1 and 2, the 2g does not. To clarify, the ecu detects air fuel ratio based one o2 sensor, installed upstream of the cat. Thus, while the ecu may detect a rich condition (fuel trims high), there is no way to isolate to a particular bank.
As for the rich condition code itself, when a misfire occurs fuel is not being burned completely. Therefore, if cyls 4,5,6 are misfiring it makes sense that there will be a very rich condition.
With respect to the aftermarket injectors, I ran the same new injectors for a few months on a new motor with no issues. They also carry a 36 month warranty if they are faulty.
Lastly, for reference the service manual provides the following recommendations:
Being that the heads were recently rebuilt, where they resurfaced? If so, how much was removed? Reason being resurfacing removes material and alters combustion chamber size and in turn compression ratio. To counteract this, a thicker head gasket can be utilized.
There was also mention of rich condition on a particular bank. While some vehicles have the capability to distinguish bank 1 and 2, the 2g does not. To clarify, the ecu detects air fuel ratio based one o2 sensor, installed upstream of the cat. Thus, while the ecu may detect a rich condition (fuel trims high), there is no way to isolate to a particular bank.
As for the rich condition code itself, when a misfire occurs fuel is not being burned completely. Therefore, if cyls 4,5,6 are misfiring it makes sense that there will be a very rich condition.
With respect to the aftermarket injectors, I ran the same new injectors for a few months on a new motor with no issues. They also carry a 36 month warranty if they are faulty.
Lastly, for reference the service manual provides the following recommendations:
As for the timing I’m positive it’s correct. I
checked it over more than 10 times on install.
#114
Intermediate
Thread Starter
So if I get in there and start adjusting valves with no experience what’s my chances of doing it correctly?
Let’s say I put one to tight or lose. Could it potentially bend a valve again and I’d be back to square one?
I bough those injectors less than 30 days ago so I could still potentially put in a refund request if they accept used injectors.. however my old ones are in bad shape. I found a 2003 TL type s at my local auto wrecker. Thinking about going to see how those injectors look.
Let’s say I put one to tight or lose. Could it potentially bend a valve again and I’d be back to square one?
I bough those injectors less than 30 days ago so I could still potentially put in a refund request if they accept used injectors.. however my old ones are in bad shape. I found a 2003 TL type s at my local auto wrecker. Thinking about going to see how those injectors look.
Last edited by timbo53; 02-23-2023 at 06:27 AM.
#115
I am dumb
Doing a valve adjustment is easy, just tedious, especially on the rear heads. The main thing you have to learn is knowing how it should feel when sliding the feeler gauges in/out. A lot of people say that it should feel like sliding the gauge through the middle of a phone book. Typically what I do, is set it to the highest measurement first, so .009 for intake & .013 for exhaust, and then I try to see if a size one bigger will fit at all, so a .010 & .014. It should not fit, at least, not without forcing it. The smallest clearance should slide in with no problem.
As for messing it up? Well, as long as you don't overtighten the valves, you're good. Just make sure you don't get the valves mixed up. Top is intake, bottom is exhaust. Make sure it's done on a cold engine. Know which cylinder you're working on.
As for messing it up? Well, as long as you don't overtighten the valves, you're good. Just make sure you don't get the valves mixed up. Top is intake, bottom is exhaust. Make sure it's done on a cold engine. Know which cylinder you're working on.
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zeta (02-23-2023)
#116
USAF Veteran
https://injector-rehab.com/shop/pint...s/?per_page=36
#117
Burning Brakes
Even if the clearance was pre-set by the shop, it was done without the belt on. Meaning any slight variations in valve opening, from the installed belt position is not accounted for.
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Thefireball (02-23-2023)
#118
Intermediate
Thread Starter
This makes no sense. You're assuming they rotated the cams to set each cylinder to tdc one at a time? Which is required to properly adjust all 24 valves.
Even if the clearance was pre-set by the shop, it was done without the belt on. Meaning any slight variations in valve opening, from the installed belt position is not accounted for.
Even if the clearance was pre-set by the shop, it was done without the belt on. Meaning any slight variations in valve opening, from the installed belt position is not accounted for.
The following users liked this post:
Thefireball (02-23-2023)
#119
Burning Brakes
Doing a valve adjustment is easy, just tedious, especially on the rear heads. The main thing you have to learn is knowing how it should feel when sliding the feeler gauges in/out. A lot of people say that it should feel like sliding the gauge through the middle of a phone book. Typically what I do, is set it to the highest measurement first, so .009 for intake & .013 for exhaust, and then I try to see if a size one bigger will fit at all, so a .010 & .014. It should not fit, at least, not without forcing it. The smallest clearance should slide in with no problem.
As for messing it up? Well, as long as you don't overtighten the valves, you're good. Just make sure you don't get the valves mixed up. Top is intake, bottom is exhaust. Make sure it's done on a cold engine. Know which cylinder you're working on.
As for messing it up? Well, as long as you don't overtighten the valves, you're good. Just make sure you don't get the valves mixed up. Top is intake, bottom is exhaust. Make sure it's done on a cold engine. Know which cylinder you're working on.
The following 2 users liked this post by whitetiger5:
Saudade (02-24-2023),
Thefireball (02-24-2023)
#120
Intermediate
Thread Starter
This makes no sense. You're assuming they rotated the cams to set each cylinder to tdc one at a time? Which is required to properly adjust all 24 valves.
Even if the clearance was pre-set by the shop, it was done without the belt on. Meaning any slight variations in valve opening, from the installed belt position is not accounted for.
Even if the clearance was pre-set by the shop, it was done without the belt on. Meaning any slight variations in valve opening, from the installed belt position is not accounted for.