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Looking for some help with my timing belt alignment on my 2003 Acura TL 3.2 j32a2. Basically I stupidly rotated the camshafts and crankshaft in all sorts of directions trying to line all the pulleys up only to realize after that this was a big mistake. Now I have it lined up however it’s not running properly.. how many different variations would there be? I have the 2 top cams on their marks and a rotated the bottom crank wheel once tried again and still didn’t run properly. I then removed the belt again rotated the crank 1 more time reinstalled thinking this would work and still didn’t. Even though the 2 top cams are on the marks is it possible that they aren’t lined up in sync?
Even though the 2 top cams are on the marks is it possible that they aren’t lined up in sync?
You just need to line up the timing marks on the cam shaft sprockets in the right spot and make sure the crank shaft is in the correct position also. Make sure the timing marks are dead on and put the timing belt back into position. Once you have the belt back in place and tensioner loaded up, hand turn the crankshaft 2 full rotations back to it's TDC spot. Once you accomplish this, recheck your cam shaft timing marks and they too should line up correctly to their benchmarks. If either cam shaft timing mark doesn't line up, take the belt off and start all over again. You have to keep tension on 1 side of the belt as you snake the other side of the belt around the water pump, cam shaft sprocket and tensioner pulley. If you are installing new parts, the timing marks should be dead nuts on. Cheap insurance to do the water pump also while in there.
You just need to line up the timing marks on the cam shaft sprockets in the right spot and make sure the crank shaft is in the correct position also. Make sure the timing marks are dead on and put the timing belt back into position. Once you have the belt back in place and tensioner loaded up, hand turn the crankshaft 2 full rotations back to it's TDC spot. Once you accomplish this, recheck your cam shaft timing marks and they too should line up correctly to their benchmarks. If either cam shaft timing mark doesn't line up, take the belt off and start all over again. You have to keep tension on 1 side of the belt as you snake the other side of the belt around the water pump, cam shaft sprocket and tensioner pulley. If you are installing new parts, the timing marks should be dead nuts on. Cheap insurance to do the water pump also while in there.
I have the 2 top cams lined up perfectly I’ve triple checked it even did a full rotation by hand like you mentioned. How can I determine if my crank pulley is in the right position ? I put the belt on, started it.. ran rough as hell.. took the belt off , rotated the crank 1 more rotation reinstalled the belt and still won’t run properly. Are there any other variations ? Do the top cams only have 1 correct position? And the bottom crank would have 2? I know 2 full rotations on The bottom equals 1 on the top.
There are 2 small benchmark triangles that need to be lined up, 1 on the crankshaft pulley that the timing belt wraps around and another small benchmark triangle on the front of the engine. Make sure all of these line up, put the belt on and you will have no problems. Just make sure you rotate the engine 2 times, getting the crankshaft triangles lined back up and see how you camshaft marks look. If everything lines up you are good to go.
^
Has a check engine light shown up yet?
I hope no valves have been bent thus far.
Good Luck!
no engine light however I’ve only let it run a few seconds because I know somethings wrong. Not sure if there time to trip an engine code. I have it all set up correctly.. it’s just running so rough..
With the timing belt off if I had turned the front cam clockwise and the rear came counter-clockwise into their alignment positions would this affect anything ? Or as long as they are lined up correctly it should be correct ?
Also how many revolutions does it take for all six cylinders to move up and down on the Crankshaft? I know 2 revolutions make 1 revolution on the cam obviously but does this mean all the cylinders do a complete rotation with just 2 turns on the crank pulley?
Just trying to figure out why it’s still
not running normally.. anything helps. Thanks !
From looking at the pictures you posted, the bottom pic of the firewall cam timing mark looks off 1 tooth to me, (YMMV) which would cause the the engine to run rough. Get a speed square or some other way to lay a straight edge against the back timing case cover and have another straight edge coming off at a true 90 degree angle to help line up your cam shaft sprockets benchmarks.
You are correct that the cam shafts spin 1//2 the speed of the crankshaft assembly. So when you are hand testing spinning over the engine once you reinstall the timing belt, if you stop the crankshaft a 1 complete revolution to the crank's benchmark, the cam timing marks should be 180 degrees opposite of their factory timing benchmarks.
You can use a Stanley or any other type of roll up 20 ft tape measure to help you line up the camshaft marks. Press the very end of the tape measure against the face of the rear timing case cover and use 1 edge of the tape itself to help you line you the camshaft sprocket marks against the timing cover marks. You can use this method to see if your current setup is correct also.
You can use a Stanley or any other type of roll up 20 ft tape measure to help you line up the camshaft marks. Press the very end of the tape measure against the face of the rear timing case cover and use 1 edge of the tape itself to help you line you the camshaft sprocket marks against the timing cover marks. You can use this method to see if your current setup is correct also.
Thanks I’ll give it a try tomorrow and see if it works out.. fingers crossed.
The entire timing process is like you set it at crank and you have to move front cam little forward and then pull it back for half tooth. As the other guy said 3. photo does not look right. Edit, rear or front, you need to pull it on. https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-1...-again-999415/
Please do very minimal turning of the camshaft pulley without the belt on. Cross your fingers you didn’t bent a valve. But if you think you did everything right and it’s still running rough, try a compression test on your cylinders.
A few years ago, I had my timing belt snapped while driving (2005 Acura RL), I was praying that I didn’t bent a valve. Bought a new belt, installed it and you can definitely tell it ran rough as a mf. I really hope you didn’t bend your valves though..
When you have all of the timing marks lined up to their benchmarks, this has to indicate that the crankshaft, camshaft timing belt sprocket belt cogs are in the position they need to be at for the belt to fit correctly and be in time. I always start at the crank and work my way to the camshaft sprocket closest to the headlights first. Put the timing belt cogs in place on the sprocket as soon as possible and then wrap the belt around the sprocket. You must keep tension on the belt once the timing belt is wrapped completely around the first camshaft sprocket, so there is no slack in the belt back to the crank. Keep tension on the belt as you snake the belt around the water pump, so there is tension on the belt from the water pump, around the 1st camshaft sprocket back to the crank. Keep tension on the belt as you wrap it around the final camshaft sprocket, so that the final piece of the puzzle will be getting the timing belt in line with the tensioner pulley.
I’ve triple checked belt removed it tried again even made marks and counted the teeth. No luck.
does anyone know if it’s possible that the front cam could be off by 1 full rotation meaning : could the front cam be pushing on the exhaust valves and the rear cam pushing on the intake valves ? Is that even possible if they are both on the timing marks correctly?
does anyone know if it’s possible that the front cam could be off by 1 full rotation meaning
The front camshaft can not be off 1 full rotation when you line up the camshaft timing marks.
When you lined up the timing marks, did the timing belt go back on with having to rotate either camshaft or the crankshaft? The final check of whether your timing marks are correct is when you can install the timing belt without rotating anything. Is the firewall camshaft timing mark in the same position as it was when you snapped pic 3 in your pic posting? How many times did you rotate the camshafts while trying to line up the timing marks?
The front camshaft can not be off 1 full rotation when you line up the camshaft timing marks.
When you lined up the timing marks, did the timing belt go back on with having to rotate either camshaft or the crankshaft? The final check of whether your timing marks are correct is when you can install the timing belt without rotating anything. Is the firewall camshaft timing mark in the same position as it was when you snapped pic 3 in your pic posting? How many times did you rotate the camshafts while trying to line up the timing marks?
when I removed the belt the first time I wasn’t thinking I should have marked it. I believe I rotated the front cam clockwise maybe 1-2 times. when I first went and put the 17mm wrench on it I couldn’t get it to move easily back into time and I couldn’t turn it counter-clockwise. This is what lead to me giving it a full rotation with a bigger wrench. I made it turn, it didn’t feel like anything broke but it was a stiff turn.Also while setting the crank up it was spun a few times stupidly.
I'm wondering now if I’ll have to pull the plug and make sure cylinder #1 is at the top TDC.
I marked the belt when it wasn’t running well.. removed it. Set it back up and changed it 1 tooth each direction still didn’t work. Also changed it 1 tooth from the rear cam to the crank. That didn’t work either.
Before you take apart an engine for a timing belt/water pump job, you need to put the engine in the correct orientation for the repair, before you turn any bolt or nut. There is a notch cut into the harmonic balancer that needs to be lined up on the crankshaft benchmark on the front of the engine. When you have this done, there is an inspection plug in the outer timing case cover you need to remove to see if the camshaft is located at it's timing mark and not 180 degrees out of sync. If you don't see the camshaft timing marks when you remove the inspection plug turn the crankshaft over 1 more complete revolution till the crank and camshaft timing marks are very close to lining up correctly. This will make sure you don't have to rotate the crankshaft at all and should just need to move the camshafts a little for everything to be synced back up. As Dee Saelee posted it is possible to bend a valve if you rotate the camshafts as a valve could get bent on a piston that is up in it's cylinder.
When setting the timing the crankshaft needs to be put in it's position and it isn't in an intake or exhaust stroke position for #1 cylinder. It is actually in the position of when the spark plug would be firing if the engine was running. Each individual valve has it's own lobe on it's camshaft. So when you line up the timing marks correctly you don't have to worry if the camshafts are orientated correctly on their intake and exhaust strokes. You need to get all of the timing marks dead on as 1 complete synced up unit and not try to turn just 1 piece to make the timing belt fit. Post up some pics of where your timing marks now reside and lets hope you didn't bend a valve while rotating the camshafts
when I removed the belt the first time I wasn’t thinking I should have marked it. I believe I rotated the front cam clockwise maybe 1-2 times. when I first went and put the 17mm wrench on it I couldn’t get it to move easily back into time and I couldn’t turn it counter-clockwise.This is what lead to me giving it a full rotation with a bigger wrench. I made it turn, it didn’t feel like anything broke but it was a stiff turn. Also while setting the crank up it was spun a few times stupidly.
He can bring cylinder head from U-pull. I did it for my Acura Legend in 2005 or so. Learn there what should be done. Cylinder head at my U-pull is only 60$.
Zeta and bbsitum have posted up very good options if your valves are bent. When dealing with valve trains, using big wrenches to turn the valve train usually isn't a good idea.
If you know of a good machine shop in your area, you can also buy a complete set of replacement valves for your engine. Have the local machine do a valve job on your current heads and then install the new valves for you. Over at the big auction site you should be able to find a complete set of 12 intake and 12 exhaust valves for the J32A2 engine around a 170.00 for the complete set.
Zeta and bbsitum have posted up very good options if your valves are bent. When dealing with valve trains, using big wrenches to turn the valve train usually isn't a good idea.
If you know of a good machine shop in your area, you can also buy a complete set of replacement valves for your engine. Have the local machine do a valve job on your current heads and then install the new valves for you. Over at the big auction site you should be able to find a complete set of 12 intake and 12 exhaust valves for the J32A2 engine around a 170.00 for the complete set.
Sounds like I’ve really screwed myself on this one. Maybe I bent the valve when I Gave it a spin initially for the first time to line it up. Maybe that’s why I had the timing marks set correctly but it ran rough as hell?
I talked to a local garage who mentioned they would need to do a compression test first and go from there ..
This is what lead to me giving it a full rotation with a bigger wrench. I made it turn, it didn’t feel like anything broke but it was a stiff turn.Also while setting the crank up it was spun a few times stupidly.
There hasn't been an auto mechanic as of yet, that hasn't screwed up in some kind of way, while trying to repair an automobile. An education does cost and I have made more then a few blunders myself over the years. But that is how experience is gained. No gain without some pain.
I believe you can get a compression tester from 1 of the loaner tool section at an auto supply store. Since you have the engine this far apart with the timing belt work, taking the heads off isn't that much more of a job. You are going to take both heads off the engine and just bring them to the machine shop, put other replacements on and bolt everything back up. The valve train setup is taken care at the machine shop if you go that route. So all you have to do is bolt the heads back on once you get them back. You can still make lemonade from Lemons and don't get discouraged because you might have made a mistake. Kudos to you for trying to repair your vehicle yourself and not just being another armchair internet auto mechanic.
Sounds like I’ve really screwed myself on this one. Maybe I bent the valve when I Gave it a spin initially for the first time to line it up. Maybe that’s why I had the timing marks set correctly but it ran rough as hell?
I talked to a local garage who mentioned they would need to do a compression test first and go from there ..
In short, I found myself in a similar situation awhile back , though when I realized my blunder and not knowing how far off the crankshaft & cam timing marks were off, everything came to a FULL STOP and removed the TB.
Since I had the valve covers off anyway, for a valve adjustment post new TB install, all I did was loosen the camshaft holder bolts, numbered on the depiction below.
This allowed the valve springs to lift all of the valves up & away from the pistons on both heads.
I carefully turned the camshafts to their respective timing mark positions.
Then I turned the crankshaft to its respective position on the oil pump.
Everything is now in time with no piston / valve interference during the adjustment.
Next, I tightened the camshaft holder bolts, one head at a time as indicated in step #8 above, carefully keeping an eye on the cam timing marks, as I proceeded, so they would not move.
Once that was accomplished, I proceeded to reinstall the TB and found joy with no further problem.
Turned the crankshaft bolt, for what seemed like an eternity , to make sure / verify everything was properly in time.
Adjusted the valves and buttoned-up the rest.
The car started smoothly, with a big sigh of relief.
This is what lead to me giving it a full rotation with a bigger wrench. I made it turn, it didn’t feel like anything broke but it was a stiff turn.Also while setting the crank up it was spun a few times stupidly.
There hasn't been an auto mechanic as of yet, that hasn't screwed up in some kind of way, while trying to repair an automobile. An education does cost and I have made more then a few blunders myself over the years. But that is how experience is gained. No gain without some pain.
I believe you can get a compression tester from 1 of the loaner tool section at an auto supply store. Since you have the engine this far apart with the timing belt work, taking the heads off isn't that much more of a job. You are going to take both heads off the engine and just bring them to the machine shop, put other replacements on and bolt everything back up. The valve train setup is taken care at the machine shop if you go that route. So all you have to do is bolt the heads back on once you get them back. You can still make lemonade from Lemons and don't get discouraged because you might have made a mistake. Kudos to you for trying to repair your vehicle yourself and not just being another armchair internet auto mechanic.
Is it possible to run a compression test with the belt off? Im assuming the starter will turn the crank? So I should put the valves at TDC pull the spark plug, disconnect the fuel. Connect the tester? Turn the engine?
Is it possible to run a compression test with the belt off? Im assuming the starter will turn the crank? So I should put the valves at TDC pull the spark plug, disconnect the fuel. Connect the tester? Turn the engine?
The timing belt will need to be installed correctly for you to get an accurate compression reading. The valves and pistons must be in their correct working relationship for a compression/leakdown test to be accurate. So the valves would be fully closed when the piston reaches TDC, producing the highest compression it can in that cylinder. Keep the spark plugs out of the other cylinders when doing the compression test, as the engine will turn over easier. Your compression readings should be well above 180 lbs, if your valve train is in good shape.
From your earlier postings, I would be leaning towards the option that a valve(s) are bent in your heads. Your valve will not be bent like a pretzel and is some cases a bent valve is hard to spot. But since you needed a lot of torque to turn over the camshafts without the crankshaft moving, a bent valve is the most likely outcome. Most probably a valve was hitting against a piston head, when the camshafts was hard to turn and you bent the valve stem when turning the camshaft.
Disconnect the fuel pump relay so the fuel pump is turned off. Pull all of the plugs out of the cylinders and connect the compression tester to the cylinder. Spin the engine over with the starter for a very short period of time, as you won't need to spin the engine very long to get a compression reading in each cylinder. The compression test gauge so have a release valve in it, so the highest pressure achieved in that cylinder is visible on the gauge, until you release the pressure release. This is so you can spin the engine using the ignition key and then check the gauge to see what the cylinder gauge has measured.
The timing belt will need to be installed correctly for you to get an accurate compression reading. The valves and pistons must be in their correct working relationship for a compression/leakdown test to be accurate. So the valves would be fully closed when the piston reaches TDC, producing the highest compression it can in that cylinder. Keep the spark plugs out of the other cylinders when doing the compression test, as the engine will turn over easier. Your compression readings should be well above 180 lbs, if your valve train is in good shape.
From your earlier postings, I would be leaning towards the option that a valve(s) are bent in your heads. Your valve will not be bent like a pretzel and is some cases a bent valve is hard to spot. But since you needed a lot of torque to turn over the camshafts without the crankshaft moving, a bent valve is the most likely outcome. Most probably a valve was hitting against a piston head, when the camshafts was hard to turn and you bent the valve stem when turning the camshaft.
Is there anything else thats absolutely essential when removing and installing the heads? I know that I need to remove the head bolts in reverse order and proper order for install.. with the battery disconnect do I need to worry about fuel pressure? I just remove the entire fuel rail with the injections still connected ? Obviously I’ll inspect them. If I’m that far in I should install new head gaskets as well on the reinstall? Can I remove the heads without removing the air intake manifold? My valve covers leak so I’ll be changing those as well.
timbo53 with the work you mentioned above you will need to remove the intake manifold. In order to remove the valve covers you will need to remove the upper intake. If you are removing the heads removing the air intake is going to have to happen. Start at the top and work your way down.
Find the fuel pressure regulator at the end of 1 of the fuel rails and disconnect the supply line to it. Be careful when doing this as there still could be pressure in the line and the fuel can be squirting everywhere. Buy new head gaskets and head bolts, as these are cheap insurance so you won't have any problems once everything is put back together. Make sure you understand the head bolt tightening procedure as these head bolts are TTY and sometimes new TTY head bolts have a slightly different torque sequence then when using old head bolts. Myself I never use old TTY head bolts, YMMV.
Look on line for a head gasket set for the 3.2 engine, as all necessary gaskets to do a head replacements should be in the box. I don't know what the budget is, or mileage on the car, but if you can afford to get new fuel injectors I would throw them in also. Especially if you are going to keep the car after the repairs. Search around online and you can possibly find good deals on the injectors and head gasket set. If I am this far into an engine, I like to replace important parts like fuel injectors while in there. When taking apart the heads I wouldn't worry too much about loosing the head bolts in the head bolt tightening sequence. Just start in the middle of the head and work you way out. Loosing the middle bolts first and then alternating side to side loosing the bolts until you get to the bolts on the outside portion of the heads. Take your time, fully understand the head bolt tightening procedure and you should be good to go.
When taking off the exhaust manifolds, they can be a real PITA, especially the firewall side. Do not worry if you break off a exhaust manifold stud in the head while taking it apart. If you do happen to break off an exhaust manifold stud, just tell the machine shop who is doing the work on your heads and let them take care of it. Taking out broken studs and bolts is an art form of sorts and sometimes best to leave it to folks who deal with these types of problems all of the time. You have to break eggs to make an omelet.
Find the fuel pressure regulator at the end of 1 of the fuel rails and disconnect the supply line to it. Be careful when doing this as there still could be pressure in the line and the fuel can be squirting everywhere. Buy new head gaskets and head bolts, as these are cheap insurance so you won't have any problems once everything is put back together. Make sure you understand the head bolt tightening procedure as these head bolts are TTY and sometimes new TTY head bolts have a slightly different torque sequence then when using old head bolts. Myself I never use old TTY head bolts, YMMV.
Look on line for a head gasket set for the 3.2 engine, as all necessary gaskets to do a head replacements should be in the box. I don't know what the budget is, or mileage on the car, but if you can afford to get new fuel injectors I would throw them in also. Especially if you are going to keep the car after the repairs. Search around online and you can possibly find good deals on the injectors and head gasket set. If I am this far into an engine, I like to replace important parts like fuel injectors while in there. When taking apart the heads I wouldn't worry too much about loosing the head bolts in the head bolt tightening sequence. Just start in the middle of the head and work you way out. Loosing the middle bolts first and then alternating side to side loosing the bolts until you get to the bolts on the outside portion of the heads. Take your time, fully understand the head bolt tightening procedure and you should be good to go.
Okay I’ll give it a whirl. I picked up a compression testing kit today. Going to pull the plugs tomorrow and test the cylinders.. I’ve been told that when doing the test I should first put the gas pedal to the floor then attempt to turn the engine over as this will not allow fuel to flow into the cylinders while trying to crank it..
once I isolate which cylinder(s) have bent valves if any I’ll pull the head or head(s) as needed.
Disconnect the fuel pump relay, which is located under the steering wheel in your TL. Do not push the gas pedal to the floor, with the fuel pump relay still engaged while doing a compression test. There is no reason why you want fuel flowing while doing a compression test on the engine. ZERO. You will only have to engage the starter for less then a second to get the engine spinning over, to get a compression reading for 1 cylinder. If 1 head has bent valves and the other doesn't, it is still best to pull off both heads and get both rebuilt at the same time. There is a possibility that if you service only 1 head the compression on the side of the engine that has the reworked head attached to it might just have more compression in it's cylinders then does the other bank of cylinders. It is best to figure that both heads are going to have to be serviced, because you spun the crankshaft while the camshafts weren't moving, along with spinning both(?) camshafts around without the crankshaft moving. You can also bend valves by rotating just the crankshaft and not the camshafts. Post up some pictures of your progress as your toils might just give other folks the incentive to try to work on their own vehicles themselves. A head replacement job at the Acura dealership would probably run you 4 to 4.5K, which would be a large impediment for a lot of folks who have 2nd gen TLs.
Timbo53, To stop fuel flow for the compression test just remove the number 1 15A fuse panel on the inside driver side panel. I also would replace both heads at the same time.
Take spark plugs out of a aluminum cylinder head that is up to temp? A real gambler, YMMV. Easy to see this person who wrote the Helms manual posted above never worked on a 5.4 Ford spark plug eating engine. A leak down test can be more accurate, can be done on a cold engine with all of the plugs already removed. Pics?
11-11-2022, 01:59 PM
, to make sure / verify everything was properly in time.
